Christian afterlife

[El_Machinae]

Yes, obviously there will be interpretations that deny the need for miracles to naturally come out of proper faith. It won't take much to introduce a small 'reinterpretation' that allows such things, especially since such interpretations have a selective advantage on the memetic front. I mean, if "beggar thy neighbor" can arrive from interpretations, more subtle misreadings can happen as well.

As I said, it's a single with regards to the true interpretations. Obviously, we can create all types of mythologies with different interpretations.

 

[Hygro]

Maybe this is a selection bias thing, but every time I see a highlight of grammar, from an accepted translation to a more literal translation, the more literal translation is deeply more interesting and religious.

Oh literal thinkers. Poor souls.

Faith. Faith. Over time. You can certainly lay the groundwork to move mountains, create miracles. Perhaps polish some of them up real nice. But why would the biggest ones finish in your poor, limited, span?

You don't believe?

Jesus didn't say lay the ground work, he said you can talk a mountain into jumping into an ocean. In God's image, who creates the universe through word. But if you only have faith for groundwork I guess start there.

But what gives someone faith they can move a mountain? Perhaps dynamite, it's almost as if your interpretation requires my literal reading.

(nb Because the non-literal interpretation is the apocalypse cult, not the literal one.)

 

[Farm Boy]

I do. But I think I expect a lot less immediacy than younger believers tend to?

I have absolutely no idea where you've gone with that.

If you want to put a mountain underwater, a good first step would be words with people, maybe a few with the divine to think if you should. Good enough for an incantation? Or do we need DnD straight out of the book?

 

[Kyriakos]

Personally I don't see the worth of religion if it is either pure metaphor or about material stuff. Neither of those need to tie themselves to a god/gods.

 

[Farm Boy]

Well, it doesn't work if the Personally part sits at the center. That's true. That's the crosspieces.

Your understanding, and mine, are both the Personal. That's not the part you're supposed to care most about getting right.

 

[Joij21]

NIV: Jesus replied, “Truly I tell you, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, ‘Go, throw yourself into the sea,’ and it will be done."

Either this is a higher standard of moving mountains through faith, or Christianity is a pro global warming apocalypse-resurrection-death cult.

It's a figure of speech. It means as long as you have faith and don't doubt yourself you can work really hard, get rich, buy the property where the mountain resides, pay all the blasting permits, buy the plastic explosives, rig the mountain and set it to blow, then detonate the explosives and it shall throw itself into the sea.

As you can see it's a long process to move a mountain into the sea and requires getting rich enough (and possibly qualified enough to use explosives) first. It wouldn't be possible if you had constant doubt, one needs faith to pull one up by the bootstraps and do great things.

 

[Farm Boy]

Why would having faith not be having constant doubt? Are we not supposed to have that?

Though, I'm guessing blasting the mountain requires a desire for gain. Immediate and personal. That doesn't take much faith at all. It's a different sort of work. Maybe it's pulling a wage for your kids. World sure is simpleminded, eh?

 

[Kyriakos]

It's a figure of speech. It means as long as you have faith and don't doubt yourself you can work really hard, get rich, buy the property where the mountain resides, pay all the blasting permits, buy the plastic explosives, rig the mountain and set it to blow, then detonate the explosives and it shall throw itself into the sea.

As you can see it's a long process to move a mountain into the sea and requires getting rich enough (and possibly qualified enough to use explosives) first. It wouldn't be possible if you had constant doubt, one needs faith to pull one up by the bootstraps and do great things.

How very lutheran, if one gets rich they are people of god.
Also entirely out of touch with any reality ^_^

Certainly we can agree that if christianity was sold as a metaphor, very few would buy back when the stock had to rise in order to keep the company out of bankruptcy. It only became sustainable as that later on, with monarchies in Europe making particular use of it.

 

[Joij21]

Personally I don't see the worth of religion if it is either pure metaphor or about material stuff. Neither of those need to tie themselves to a god/gods.

Because if life gets brutal a rough who will there be to turn too? What if one has no relative or loved ones left alive? Great sky daddy brings hope that he'll make things right in the end no matter how brutal things get.

In other words god/gods gain extra believers when the going gets tough and people can't rely on the kindness of others to help them out (for various societal reasons).

 

[Joij21]

Why would having faith not be having constant doubt? Are we not supposed to have that?

Though, I'm guessing blasting the mountain requires a desire for gain. Immediate and personal. That doesn't take much faith at all. It's a different sort of work. Maybe it's pulling a wage for your kids. World sure is simpleminded, eh?

Because if your poor you'll have no hope of ever blowing up a mountain in your lifetime. It's hard to make money, and to do great things you need money. So a poor man will always have doubt that he can ever get rich and become "the mountain destroyer" and never pursue wealth because he believes wealth is impossible to be had. However if he has faith he can overcome his doubt and thus won't be constantly gaslighting himself into not pursuing wealth.

 

[Kyriakos]

Because if life gets brutal a rough who will there be to turn too? What if one has no relative or loved ones left alive? Great sky daddy brings hope that he'll make things right in the end no matter how brutal things get.

In other words god/gods gain extra believers when the going gets tough and people can't rely on the kindness of others to help them out (for various societal reasons).

It can help people, sure. It can also ruin them. A dangerous bet, imo

 

[El_Machinae]

OTOH, the bible also does warn about believing those who've performed 'great works'. We're talking about a faith where heathens can turn sticks into snakes, afterall.
It is neat how by refusing to help sorcerors, the devil has tricked Christians into believing that God won't help them perform legit miracles either

 

[Farm Boy]

Because if your poor you'll have no hope of ever blowing up a mountain in your lifetime. It's hard to make money, and to do great things you need money. So a poor man will always have doubt that he can ever get rich and become "the mountain destroyer" and never pursue wealth because he believes wealth is impossible to be had. However if he has faith he can overcome his doubt and thus won't be constantly gaslighting himself into not pursuing wealth.

It takes more "poor" people to move a mountain than lords of men. Sometimes lifetimes of them. There will always be another who wants to be a lord of man. <yawn>

We tamed the grass of the earth. It was not fast. Slaves built the pyramids. Slaves built America.

 

[Hygro]

I do. But I think I expect a lot less immediacy than younger believers tend to?

I have absolutely no idea where you've gone with that.

If you want to put a mountain underwater, a good first step would be words with people, maybe a few with the divine to think if you should. Good enough for an incantation? Or do we need DnD straight out of the book?

Sure. All of that follows the literal reading. A whole lot more follows a nonliteral reading.

 

[Farm Boy]

I would classify my post there as metaphorical, but if you don't, we're probably not disagreeing much at all past the nomenclature of our internal language.

 

[Joij21]

It takes more "poor" people to move a mountain than lords of men. Sometimes lifetimes of them. There will always be another who wants to be a lord of man. <yawn>

We tamed the grass of the earth. It was not fast. Slaves built the pyramids. Slaves built America.

These poor workers who lay the explosives are not rich enough to purchase the permits, let alone the property to destroy the mountain. The idea for the mountain's destruction was therefore not theirs (they were simply there to get a measly paycheck) but the rich man's.

Had the workers had a choice they would believe the very concept of destroying the mountain to be insane, perhaps foolish even. But the rich man knew perhaps that rare earth metals lay below the mountain, thus boosting American chip manufacturing and self sufficiency. Giving us an edge over competing against China and their increased militancy. Sure he gets richer and maybe the workers don't get as much, but he had the faith to take risk, go by his gut feelings, get things done, and make the rest of us more powerful than ever before.

This is the "Great Man Hypothesis" and I just justified it using a parable by Jesus. So yeah one must be careful of interpretations.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

Thanks Kyriakos for your translation help. That passage was indeed from Revelations. I liked your translation into the English.

 

[Farm Boy]

These poor workers who lay the explosives are not rich enough to purchase the permits, let alone the property to destroy the mountain. The idea for the mountain's destruction was therefore not theirs (they were simply there to get a measly paycheck) but the rich man's.

Had the workers had a choice they would believe the very concept of destroying the mountain to be insane, perhaps foolish even. But the rich man knew perhaps that rare earth metals lay below the mountain, thus boosting American chip manufacturing and self sufficiency. Giving us an edge over competing against China and their increased militancy. Sure he gets richer and maybe the workers don't get as much, but he had the faith to take risk, go by his gut feelings, get things done, and make the rest of us more powerful than ever before.

This is the "Great Man Hypothesis" and I just justified it using a parable by Jesus. So yeah one must be careful of interpretations.

Why would they believe it insane? Bet they don't. They don't seem to, and they aren't morons. Prevailing bigotries about West Virginians not withstanding.

Yes, one must be careful of temptations in the desert.

 

[Moff Jerjerrod]

No you said that Christians believe they become "angels" when they go to heaven. They don't.

As for this bodily resurrection, it's only found in the Book of Revelation. It's open to interpretation whether or not nothing happens after one's dead and simply waits to get resurrected or wether or not there is a wait over period whereby God stores you in Heaven or Hell until Judgement Day and then resurrects you. Many people believe in many things because to be honest, no one really understands what Revelation was trying to get at. The phropecy is meant to be revealed (that is properly understood) only when these events begin happening, hence the name of the book, revelation, which means to reveal/uncover/to make properly understood.



I mean you should. Especially if you want to understand Christians since that is where all the various beliefs stem from. It's the primary source.

Yes I believe the prophecy will become clear the closer we get to the time when these events begin happening. As in right now. Take a look at the world around you and also what the news is not telling you. Instead rely on Twitter or friends overseas to get the real news. You will quickly see we're living in the beginning of sorrows.

Your statement is also confirmed in 1 Thessalonians 5:1-2

KJV - 1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

We know the times and the seasons and we can see it's coming soon.

 

[Birdjaguar]

We know the times and the seasons and we can see it's coming soon.

The boy who cried wolf comes to mind when folks say the end of days are coming. Each time in the past they have been wrong. It reminds me of this: