Christian converts on trial in Turkey

[Katheryn]

Christian converts on trial in Turkey Thu Nov 23, 4:14 PM ET



ISTANBUL, Turkey - Two men who converted to Christianity went on trial Thursday for allegedly insulting "Turkishness" and inciting religious hatred against Islam, the Anatolia news agency reported.

The trial opened just days before a visit to Turkey by Pope Benedict XVI. During his visit, the pontiff is expected to discuss improved religious rights for the country's tiny Christian minority who complain of discrimination.

Hakan Tastan, 37, and Turan Topal, 46, are accused of making the insults and of inciting hate while allegedly trying to convert other Turks to Christianity. If convicted, the two Turkish men could face up to nine years in prison.

The men were charged under Turkey's Article 301, which has been used to bring charges against dozens of intellectuals — including Nobel Prize-winner Orhan Pamuk.

The law has widely been condemned for severely limiting free expression and European officials have demanded Turkey change it as part of reforms to join the EU.

They also are charged under a law against inciting hatred based on religion.

Prosecutors accuse the two of allegedly telling possible converts that Islam was "a primitive and fabricated" religion and that Turks would remain "barbarians" as long they continued practicing Islam, Anatolia reported.

The prosecutors also accused them of speaking out against the country's compulsory military service, and compiling databases on possible converts.

Tastan and Topal denied the accusations in court.

"I am a Turk, I am a Turkish citizen. I don't accept the accusations of insulting 'Turkishness,'" Anatolia quoted Tastan as telling the court. "I am a Christian, that's true. I explain the Bible ... to people who want to learn. I am innocent."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061123/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_christian_converts


How curious, the Pope is supposed to be visiting there next week. He is very outspoken about freedom of Christians to practice their religion.

Sounds like it could be a difficult situation, if not an awkward one.

 

[GenMarshall]

How sad that there are still Christians being persecuted

 

[Mr. Dictator]

just curious, how does the majority of citizens in turkey feel about this?

 

[Evie]

If they were as, shall we say, ardent as some of the christians we have on this board (Do I really need to give names? It would be against the rules in any event.), I can see why lots of Turk would take it the wrong way and want to see them in jail.

Which doesn't make the law a good law, mind you. Free speech and all, even if the people free speaking have no respect for what the people they're blattering to think, or for the fact that they want left alone.

 

[Urederra]

That is why I don't think it a good idea to include Turkey in the EU.

 

[Bast]

How sad is this. Interested to see what will happen with Pope going there next week.

And yes it probably isn't a good idea to include Turkey in EU.

 

[ArneHD]

After reading what was posted it seemes like the fact that they were christians was just incidental. They might as well have been muslims, or hindus or atheists or jewish.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Can anyone confirm if the acutal crime being comitted here is "converting to Christianity"? I didn't know such a Turkish Law existed.

I know that in Turkey you can be prosecuted for "insulting Turkishness" but that does not relate to religion in any way. The fact that they are "Christian Converts" is irrelevant.

After reading what was posted it seemes like the fact that they were christians was just incidental. They might as well have been muslims, or hindus or atheists or jewish.

Apologies, I hadn't noticed that you'd already made that point

 

[Rambuchan]

After reading what was posted it seemes like the fact that they were christians was just incidental. They might as well have been muslims, or hindus or atheists or jewish.

That's right. And the OP headline is totally misleading.

Which is convenient for some who wish to see the whole Islamic world as barbaric and intolerant (note that Turkey is a secular state, not Islamic). People see what they want to see. And it's pretty obvious from some of the responses so far that many folk have done just that, whilst not actually reading the article in detail.

That is why I don't think it a good idea to include Turkey in the EU.

You, good sir, are a fine example, who should have done better. In Britain there was a Muslim man found guilty of similar charges of "inciting hatred based on religion" and Nick Griffin, leader of the BNP, was cleared of similar charges (because he was doing so on an ethnic basis, not religious). Are you saying that Britain shouldn't be a part of the EU?

Here's an account of the Brit trials I refer to.

 

[Peri]

How sad is this. Interested to see what will happen with Pope going there next week.

And yes it probably isn't a good idea to include Turkey in EU.

I have never though that it was a good idea. This just shows how far Turkey still has to travel. Turkey has a very poor record on human rights and free speech. It is a shame that most countries have double standards when dealing with Turkey.

 

[Bugfatty300]

Turkey isn't alone as far as the EU is concerned.

Simple words can get you thrown in prison through out Europe.

I believe that a person should be able to say anything (except threats) with out being thrown in prison.

 

[Peri]

Tell me more

 

[Riffraff]

Turkey isn't alone as far as the EU is concerned.

Simple words can get you thrown in prison through out Europe.

I believe that a person should be able to say anything (except threats) with out being thrown in prison.

I think you're slightly off track here.

In some countries its illegal to deny the holocaust or another genocide. This is only applied to people who try publishing articles/books about the topic - the state doesn't want people trying to rewrite history. If you're on the street/in the pub though, you can deny the holocaust as much as you want.

 

[Bugfatty300]

I think you're slightly off track here.

In some countries its illegal to deny the holocaust or another genocide. This is only applied to people who try publishing articles/books about the topic

Not just books. Internet also. But banning publication is almost as worse.

the state doesn't want people trying to rewrite history

The state doesn't want people trying to express unpopular ideas. I wouldn't trust "the state" to tell me history over the crazy kook on the sidewalk. Kooks have agendas and "the state" has agendas. I believe I am smart enough to interpret history myself with out having the government cencoring it and throwing people in prison.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

They also are charged under a law against inciting hatred based on religion.

Prosecutors accuse the two of allegedly telling possible converts that Islam was "a primitive and fabricated" religion and that Turks would remain "barbarians" as long they continued practicing Islam, Anatolia reported.

Poor persecuted Christians...

 

[Peri]

Poor persecuted Christians...

No one should get persecuted by the state for their beliefs - not even Christians.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

No one should get persecuted by the state for their beliefs - not even Christians.

What about cold hard racists like the ones mentioned by Rambu?

 

[Riffraff]

The state doesn't want people trying to express unpopular ideas. I wouldn't trust "the state" to tell me history over the crazy kook on the sidewalk. Kooks have agendas and "the state" has agendas. I believe I am smart enough to interpret history myself with out having the government cencoring it and throwing people in prison.

I really regret the phrase about the state and rewriting history - gives the law loads of dimensions it doesn't have. Its really just against people saying that 600 jews got killed in the holocaust and not 6 million.

Just as an example, there was a recent court case trying to ban the phrase "honor and glory to the (weapons) - SS" , which the neo-nazis like having on their t-shirts. The court didn't ban it - emphasing that unpopular ideas are tolerated here

 

[Peri]

Surely you arent trying to claim that the UK and Turkey are on a par with regards to this issue?

People who disagree with the Turkish government and express beliefs contrary to the norm are persecuted. Our system is not quite that bad.
As much as I dislike racists and dispute their claims they are entitled to have their opinions.

Im not sure that I have answered your post properly.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

No one should get persecuted by the state for their beliefs - not even Christians.

They are not persecuted for being Christians, they are charged for degrading.
Islam.
Insulting a major religious group means trouble in any country.