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City Development

Discussion in 'Communitas Expansion Pack' started by Thalassicus, Sep 28, 2010.

  1. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    The Medici Bank would probably be joined by a slight reduction to normal bank and/or market yields. Overall there would be more gold for small empires but less gold for large ones, similar to the concept for Baths of Trajan, to make small empires and national wonders a more worthwhile strategy.

    For example, if Markets produce +20% gold (down from 25) then with this +50% wonder your empire would have more gold than vanilla when smaller than about 10 cities, and less gold when over 10. (50 / 5)
     
  2. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Please also consider making The Great Wall go obsolete at Dynamite rather than Metallurgy.
    I still vote for reinstating the vanilla :c5production: cost. It's really, really good at what it does (turning all flatlands into marshes for combat purposes).

    And here are some further ideas for city buildings, similar to Monasteries/Mints:

    Textile Mill
    +4 :c5gold:
    +1 :c5gold: from nearby sources of Silk, Cotton and Dyes
    Available with Economics

    Cannery
    +1 :c5food:
    +1 :c5food: from nearby sources of and Bananas and Spices
    Available with ???

    Bakery
    +1 :c5food:
    +1 :c5food: from nearby sources of Wheat and Sugar
    Available with ???

    Jeweler
    +2 :c5gold:
    +2 :c5gold: from nearby sources of Gems, Ivory and Pearls
    Available with ???

    Meat Packing Plant (to replace your Granary replacement)
    +1 :c5food:
    +1 :c5food: from nearby sources of Sheep and Cattle
    Available at ???

    Leather Processing Plant (to replace your Granary replacement)
    +3 :c5production:
    +1 :c5gold: from nearby sources of Deer and Whales
    Available at ???
     
  3. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Will do about the GW cost, I had it at such a low value because it used to not work properly.

    Dynamite is an excellent place to obsolete it, since explosive-shell artillery is when fortifications finally became obsolete and warfare become more mobile. Thank you for the idea.

    When adding buildings there's a balance between two few and too many options. If you go to a store and see just 1 brand, you're frustrated due to lack of choice. If you see 50 brands, you're overwhelmed from to too many choices. This is why I try to find places to fit buffs on existing buildings wherever possible (like smokehouses, harbors, etc). I only want to add new buildings when absolutely necessary, so the tech tree and build menus don't get cluttered up with things people will rarely use. Better to get the ~10 options we do have at a given time equally valuable.

    This is why I've been resistant to adding buildings until now, and I'm limiting it primarily to national wonders, which are already very small in number.
     
  4. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Okay, will try to figure out some interesting national wonders then :)
     
  5. PieceOfMind

    PieceOfMind Drill IV Defender Retired Moderator

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    I'm interesed in the Medici Bank for Icey No mod. I'd probably bump it to 100%, but of course it's really only the text and art I'd use. I'm not 100% sure, but is it correct that even national wonders in civ5 don't need 3d graphics? Like buildings, they just have the 2d icon/s?
     
  6. Bandobras Took

    Bandobras Took Emperor

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    Yes. The building is overpowered. If provides two specialist slots for 80 hammers and 1 maintenance/turn. That's 40 hammers and 0.5 gold/specialist. The only building that even comes close to that is the Temple, and that one has a prerequisite of the Monument. Libraries have no prerequisites, and are available on the tech tree far earlier than any other specialist-enabling building. I've said this elsewhere, but axing the Library's specialist slots entirely doesn't seem like a bad option, especially with people complaining about how fast the tech rate is.
     
  7. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    hehe, isn't the point to make the buildings overall more useful to build, not less?
     
  8. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    @PieceOfMind
    Sent ya another PM.

    @Stalker0
    Depends on the building. I haven't seen any comments on the forums stating Markets are underpowered, so it wouldn't hurt to shift a few % from the building to a wonder.
     
  9. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    Well, I've got a beta version of City Development v.7 ready to go. I'd like to get some further testing done of this before issuing a general release, as there's a significant amount of work put into it and higher risk of errors. I've attached a copy to this post if you'd like to try it out.

    The goal is to somewhat improve gameplay for small, focused empires with large populations.

    v. 7 Beta

    • Building tooltips now indicate quantity of specialists.
    • Most national wonders now provide 2 specialist slots.
    • Added three new national wonders: Medici Bank, Agra Fort, and Baths of Trajan.
    • Added Aqueduct, moved 25% of :c5food: storage from Hospital to Aqueduct.
    • Moved 1:c5citizen: Scientist Specialist from Library to the University.
    • -15%:c5production: for Courthouse.

    • -20% :c5unhappy: per :c5citizen:
    • +1:c5happy: from difficulty
    • +1:c5unhappy: per city
    • Happiness buildings progress 3:c5happy: → 4:c5happy: → 5:c5happy: (was 4 4 4).

    • Baths of Trajan
      +6:c5happy:
      Unlocked at Engineering.
      Requires Aqueducts.
    • Medici Bank
      +50%:c5gold:
      2 Merchant slots.
      Unlocked at Banking.
      Requires Markets.
    • Agra Fort
      +20:c5strength:
      2 Merchant slots.
      Unlocked at Construction.
      Requires Walls.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    This change makes no sense. Large(r) cities that invest into infrastructure should not be penalized for investing into infrastructure.

    If you want to fix the ICS problem make "the next city" be worth 3 :c5unhappy:.
    Nerf the Forbidden Palace and the Order policy to give 33% each (reducing :c5unhappy: by 1 and 1 but never to zero).

    If a player wants to play "1 pop city ICS" he has to pay around 600:c5gold: for the Colloseum for his new city to become happiness-neutral at size 1. If he wants to pay further 800:c5gold: for building the Theatre, well my hat is off to him. That is seriously some expensive research-boosting 1-pop city he has there.

    This also indirectly boosts Autocracy, and Piety works only for cities that reach population 5 and 10.

    ***

    Another solution is to make both Colloseum and Theatre work exactly like the Library or Piety policy: adds 1 :c5happy: per every 3 citizens. Also increase the :c5unhappy: by 1 per new city as I suggested in the previous part (and nerf FP and Order accordingly).

    At pop 3 it will be worth +1:c5happy:
    At pop 6 it will be worth +2:c5happy:
    At pop 9 it will be worth +3:c5happy:
    At pop 12 it will be worth its current +4:c5happy:
    At pop 15 it will become better than it is now (thus mitigating the effect of the 1:c5unhappy: it gained from the new "per city" penalty).
    At pop 15 the Theatre's extra +1:c5happy: will negate the reduced potency FP and Order policy.

    This makes much more sense, especially since it works in line with your growth-boosting new Aqueduct.

    A small ICS pop 4 city will (in comparison), gain 3 :c5unhappy: from simply being there, 1:c5happy: from Colloseum, 1:c5happy: from a Theatre and the remaining 1:c5happy: point would need to be found in other sources. The total upkeep cost is 7:c5gold: for these buildings, so the 4-pop city will be hard-pressed to pay for its own expenses - no more science-specialist-research-boosting nonsese.

    What this means is that any new city that wants to become fully happiness-neutral will have to reach size 10 (-3 from new city, +6 from Colloseum&Theatre, +2 from Piety or +1 from Liberty and +1/2 from Specialist policies). The only way to get to this before Renaissance is to have horses in radius for Circus.

    Abundant happiness resources won't be able to pay for both large core cities and small ICS cities - the player will have to choose whether he invests the surplus happiness into keeping the small ones alive or to let the large cities grow.

    This also makes puppeting cities more difficult. As a rule of thumb, you won't be able to pay the :c5happy: requirements for obitaining them without dipping into your resource happiness pool. Which means it will be very hard (if not simply impossible) to zerg the whole continent before Printing Press. At which point, conquests are relieved of the happiness issue and massive empires may start becoming reality.

    Except investment into units, players will be forced to invest into wonders (FP), buildings and especially policies if they want their conquests to mean something positive. Those "ludicrous" amounts of cash gained by puppets will be fueled into purchasing Theatres and cultural city-states, puppets will be converted by a 1:1 ratio into annexes just to rush-buy the happiness buildings.
     
  11. Joneill

    Joneill Chieftain

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    How is that penalizing? It's actually encouraging you to progress through the building-line (although I think the change is not nearly enough). I don't see why circus, theatre and stadium have to be worse than the colosseum in terms of happiness per maintenance. They already have a higher hammer cost/special location requirement, do they really need to be less cost-effective, too? There isn't even a national wonder requiring one of the later buildings to promote their use - they are just really bad.
     
  12. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    Yeah I really don't like the change to coliseums...again buildings right now are too weak and should not be nerfed.
     
  13. Thalassicus

    Thalassicus Bytes and Nibblers

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    "Large(r) cities that invest into infrastructure should not be penalized for investing into infrastructure."

    Could you clarify this? I'm not quite sure I understand.

    Happiness is not a yield, so it can't be added to Building_YieldChangesPerPop. We can alter static maintenance & happiness but are unable to implement :c5happy:/:c5citizen: with the current tools.

    This is why I'm trying to find the best way to improve gameplay with the available resources. The basic concept is making "narrow and deep" investment slightly better, compared to a "shallow and broad" approach. I don't want to make the latter inferior, just equally viable as having a few big cities, since there seems to be a community consensus shallow-and-broad with cities in a grid ignoring terrain is currently much better (ICS).
     
  14. Perkus

    Perkus Prince

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    Most buildings, yes, but not Colosseums. If you read the various threads on ICS strategy, a typical scenario is that players buy Colosseums in each new size 1 city immediately after founding it. Obviously, this is not a sign of a weak building...

    I'm not crazy about losing that 1 point of happiness early on either, and I don't use ICS. But I hope that the highly desirable +6 happiness from the new baths will compensate the loss somewhat. On the other hand, the faster pop growth from all those aqueducts will probably just swallow up that extra happiness. One thing's for sure, it won't be quite as attractive to sell off all your luxuries early on as many min/max players are also doing.
     
  15. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    Yes. Whether an :c5gold: or :c5production: investment, buildings cost time and effort and upkeep. Building a colosseum, even rush-buying it, should be of benefit to the player.
    The total happiness provided by all three happiness buildings is 12 :c5happy:. And these come at a pretty steep :c5gold: GPT price. For population 20 cities this is already a problem, since benefits from other sources are barely enough to keep a dozen of these cities up. The player needs to go to great lengths to provide enough :c5happy: to build a really (city-size-wise) strong empire.

    Players can cheat the developers' planned balance in two ways:
    1. Bulbing techs, often in chain, doing massive leaps in technological advances.
    2. Abusing the fact that the penalties for having multiple cities are too low and the benefits of simply having them too great.

    The initial low-cost buildings were designed as founding-stones for long chains of buildings (marketplace>bank>stockex; monument>temple>opera>museum>broadcast).

    I find nothing wrong with the fact that you can build a really small town just to serve as a whaling village, while having a really big city just a few hexes away. But its bizarre that such a village can produce (in rather short time and with minimal investment) 1/4 of the research the big city is producing.

    I say minimal because with 10 puppet cities one can rushbuy a library every turn.

    ***

    To enable having really small towns as part of the landscape, yet preventing ICS from making ridiculous amounts of gold and research, we need to make those towns scale up with their size.

    Fix#1: remove all specialist slots from the Library and Marketplace (possibly even Temple) and distribute them to other buildings in the building chain.

    Fix#2: Make bulbing (when it becomes an option with C++) worth a fixed amount of :c5science:

    ***

    If the player wants to rush-buy Banks and Universities in his ICS cities just to be able to run specialist - fine. He paid the :c5production: and tech price to be able to do so. Building a library, putting two scientists to work and getting an infinite number of beakers worth Great Scientist after 10 turns is not a result comparable to the investment.
     
  16. Joneill

    Joneill Chieftain

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    I think that's a bit much, a better knob to turn would be the <HurryCostModifier> on these early buildings, making them more costly in gold but leaving hammercost alone. That is, if these buildings actually still require more tuning.
     
  17. Perkus

    Perkus Prince

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    I don't think the Market and Temple are a problem. Market only has 1 specialist slot, and while temple has 2, it's somewhat self-defeating to try to abuse that in that you can't just build little towns full of temples for a culture win since it raises the social policy costs to do so. And let's try it with the library at 1 specialist for a while before we overreact too much. Raising the rush buy costs is actually a good way to nerf ICS specifically which I hadn't run across previously.
     
  18. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    You're right, it's possible that leaving only 1 slot in library will balance it. I will try it soon.
     
  19. Perkus

    Perkus Prince

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    On another topic related to balancing city development, I'm involved in a discussion of how it would be possible to mod a way to give the capital city the same 50% railroad bonus other cities get. IF it works, this might be something worth considering to add to this mod. See http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9876519#post9876519
     
  20. Perkus

    Perkus Prince

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    I tried it, and it's causing the game to crash (runtime error) when I load an older late-game saved game. The crash goes away when I revert to v.6. I don't see any obvious errors, probably an XML syntax error? Does this load for you?
     

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