Civ Suggestion: Polynesia

[Locutus_Morti]

Some things:

The Canoe (or perhaps Waka) should certainly replace the Galley. Replacing the Caravel would make it entirely useless. It would be a low-move, low-strength unit, with a severely limited carrying capacity, its only redeeming quality being it's cheapness and early access. It would not be worth building, except for the UHV. Also, there are no records of the Polynesians building large ships that are not canoes.

Second, after some thought, the third UHV could be modified from it's boring state.

Perhaps the third UHV could be something like "Discover Astronomy before anyone else discovers Steam Power."

Any feedback on this?

 

[iOnlySignIn]

Replacing the Caravel would make it entirely useless. It would be a low-move, low-strength unit, with a severely limited carrying capacity, its only redeeming quality being it's cheapness and early access. It would not be worth building, except for the UHV.

Just brilliant. Maybe we should change one UHV to "build 10 canoes".

And how does replacing Caravel make it "entirely useless"? Please explain that to me.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

The caravel is supposed to be used for popping conquerors (in my opinion). If the Polynesians are New World, then they can't get conquerors. So what they get is a unit which comes earlier, but has none of the functionality of the original unit. It has less strength, and less movement.

If we went with another suggestion, making it impossible to carry military units, then the unit is only useful for transporting settlers to the various islands around the pacific. Historical, but very boring. The only redeeming qualities of the unit are it's price and earlier availability.

If we replace the Caravel with the Canoe, we effectively make it impossible for Polynesia to have a functional navy until Astronomy. This may be historical, but it would not be fun.

Please tell me, what use would the caravel have, besides early cross-water transport? The canoe should not be a mid-game unit. It belongs in the classical and medieval ages, not the renaissance.

 

[JiimBV]

If we replace the Caravel with the Canoe, we effectively make it impossible for Polynesia to have a functional navy until Astronomy. This may be historical, but it would not be fun.

Please tell me, what use would the caravel have, besides early cross-water transport? The canoe should not be a mid-game unit. It belongs in the classical and medieval ages, not the renaissance.

It seems to me like the impossibility of military use is unacceptable for most of the players of this game. Perhaps the Canoe/Waka should be able to carry 1 unit of any type; this would allow for military use over water, if diminished. Only problem is that Polynesia is able to settle Australia and/or East Africa and/or South America and/or North America with relative ease as soon as it has Canoes (immediately), since it can defend its settlers. In addition to a UB that can make water infinitely more productive, all these lands would be extremely overpowering. After all, the Vikings are banned from most of North America before they have Astronomy, why shouldn't the Polynesians be? That is why I am personally in support of Canoes that can only carry Settlers, Workers, Missionaries, Scouts, Explorers and Great People. Should it be necessary for them to have military units in the early-mid game, their balance in conjunction with their UU will be screwed.

I find it hard to keep in mind that the Polynesians aren't in fact in game yet, aha. They should be though! They would be too much fun.

 

[ImNotHere]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this yet but, would the tiles in the South Pacific islands be changed from jungle to forest? Since currently they are all jungle, they are unsettleable. Thus, the Polynesians need a way to build cities there. I can only see two solutions:

1. Change some of the tiles there to forest.

2. Allow the Polynesians to settle on jungle/chop jungle with an earlier tech.

Personally, I lean more toward the idea of chopping the jungle first. That way, the Polynesians would still need worker(s) since most of their tiles would be water anyway and not need improvement (by workers).

 

[merijn_v1]

If the Waka (more historical name than the Canoe IIRC) is able to enter ocean, it will get the doulbe movement. Should it get it?

I support the idea that the Waka should only be able to transport special units.

A quite radical suggestion: Create a limit for the amount of Waka's that can be build. Let's say 2-3. All can carry 1 unit. (can also be military) If you want to transport many units, you'll have to travel several times, making it hard (but not impossible). The problem is, do we want a limited UU? I never liked it, but this could be an exeption

Forest on those island is historical. Rapa Nui did have trees, but they were all chopped down by the Polynesians. (And that's probably the reason for the extiction of the people of Easter Island)

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

If the Waka (more historical name than the Canoe IIRC) is able to enter ocean, it will get the doulbe movement. Should it get it?

I support the idea that the Waka should only be able to transport special units.

A quite radical suggestion: Create a limit for the amount of Waka's that can be build. Let's say 2-3. All can carry 1 unit. (can also be military) If you want to transport many units, you'll have to travel several times, making it hard (but not impossible). The problem is, do we want a limited UU? I never liked it, but this could be an exeption

Forest on those island is historical. Rapa Nui did have trees, but they were all chopped down by the Polynesians. (And that's probably the reason for the extiction of the people of Easter Island)

Essentially, you want to turn it into a National Unit.

And we shouldn't change their Polynesia's relation to jungles.
Forested islands is a good idea.
And it may influence Polynesia's build order strategy,
concerning strategic timing of chops.

 

[merijn_v1]

Well, I'm not saying I really wanted. I'm just brainstorming with some radical ideas. I think I actually prefer the "can only carry special people" version.

 

[Lennon789]

I agree that the Polynesian UU should be a national unit that can carry only one of any unit type, allowing for colonization of single tile islands separated by ocean, and that the jungle tiles should be replaced with forest. Does clearing a forest by founding a city on it yield the hammers one would've obtained from chopping?

 

[CHEESE!]

No, no hammers.

 

[strijder20]

After all, the Vikings are banned from most of North America before they have Astronomy, why shouldn't the Polynesians be?

No, they aren't. They can use Vinland as a canal city.
So even the Romans or other European civs could use this Ireland-Iceland-Vinland hopping trick to get to the Americas earlier than others, so an ability to visit the Americas before Astronomy wouldn't be that overpowered.

 

[JiimBV]

No, they aren't. They can use Vinland as a canal city.
So even the Romans or other European civs could use this Ireland-Iceland-Vinland hopping trick to get to the Americas earlier than others, so an ability to visit the Americas before Astronomy wouldn't be that overpowered.

I never knew that! Very useful. Still, I don't think the Polynesians should be able to settle all of the Americas on spawn, no matter if their spawn is 1500 BC or 700 AD. An ocean-faring vessel that carries military units would enable them to do so. If that vessel can't carry military units, all non-military units are unprotected on land. Only on islands can they be completely safe, thus enabling the Polynesians to settle historically but disallowing ahistorical expansion into the extremely rich lands of North America and the moderately rich lands of Africa, Australia and South America.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

I've reconciled that it probably won't carry military units, but could it at least replace the Galley?

 

[JiimBV]

I've reconciled that it probably won't carry military units, but could it at least replace the Galley?

I agree. It really must replace the Galley.

 

[Hippo8085]

I think that making it enough of a pain to settle the west coast would solve this. Especially if the national unit idea goes through, the unit could be so that it has 1/2 movement across oceans instead of double.

 

[Locutus_Morti]

That would be excruciating, but reduced movement isn't a bad idea. How about just the normal 2, instead of doubling?

 

[youtien]

Just make cities more likely to declare independence without connect to capital (trade route). Canoes can cross ocean but trade route won't before astronomy. This would discourage players to settle America too early.

 

[Tomorrow's Dawn]

I hope you guys realize that this isn't England and that settling America too early will rack up insane maintenance costs.
I personally don't think settling the West Coast is such a big deal and as game-breaking as it's made out to be.
Aztec and Maya players settle the Midwest all the time and that still can't compensate for their starting situations.
The only distinction here is that you have contact with Asian civs for trades, and possibly others depending on how much you explore.

 

[calad]

Polynesia civilization would be nice adding to game IF it likely collapses before Europeans like Maya tends to do. Pacific Ocean is quiet region of game. I would like to see some late-game activity there

 

[strijder20]

I personally don't think settling the West Coast is such a big deal and as game-breaking as it's made out to be.

Yes, I like settling the West Coast (only Los Angeles), but that's only because of the 1850 AD 6 food resource spawns. If you settle it early on, LA isn't that good a city, and Vancouver's only good for the gold and silver.

Leoreth, what do you think about this civilization suggestion, by the way?