CivGeneral's Catholicism Thread

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I follow the Vatican as it is today. That would make me the Catholic and you the heretic. Like you said, heretics don't know they are heretics.

You even refuse to listen to the current Pope. That is not Catholic at all.
 
Zarn said:
I follow the Vatican as it is today. That would make me the Catholic and you the heretic. Like you said, heretics don't know they are heretics.

You even refuse to listen to the current Pope. That is not Catholic at all.
Hmm, you made several baseless accusations here once again. You also ignored the words of Rome on liberty of conscience. Feel free to stop this borderline trolling and actually contribute something worthwhile some time this millenium...
 
Inqvisitor said:
Hmm, you made several baseless accusations here once again. You also ignored the words of Rome on liberty of conscience. Feel free to stop this borderline trolling and actually contribute something worthwhile some time this millenium...

The only person that is trolling is you. The fact that you do not want to see it is not my fault. I tried to put you in the shoes of another poster, and you did not like it one bit. Then, you lashed out at me, because you did not like it. Nothing I said was baseless, either.

Just calm down and think things through. There is no point in getting bitter about things.
 
Now i understand that old saying "More catholic than the Pope"...
 
Heretic_Cata said:
Now i understand that old saying "More catholic than the Pope"...
That very premise is a misnomer, as you cannot be "more Catholic." You either follow all the Traditions of the Church, or you are heretical, perhaps, "less Catholic."
 
I would like to point out that Inqvisitor does not accept the doctrines espoused in the Second Vatican council of 1970, and, since he does not accept the authority of the reigning Pope, he is thus a Sedevecantist, a schismatic and, thus, he ought to be Latæ Sententiæ excommunicated from the Church.
 
Zarn said:
The only person that is trolling is you. The fact that you do not want to see it is not my fault. I tried to put you in the shoes of another poster, and you did not like it one bit. Then, you lashed out at me, because you did not like it. Nothing I said was baseless, either.

Just calm down and think things through. There is no point in getting bitter about things.
Youre not the only one Zarn, he has been lashing out on me based on the fact that I am a Post-Vatican II Catholic. Realy, his constant bombardment of calling me a heretic as well as a modernist is starting to turn me off from the Catholic faith and derailing my journey home :(.
 
CivGeneral said:
Youre not the only one Zarn, he has been lashing out on me based on the fact that I am a Post-Vatican II Catholic.

As I pointed out in the last post, since he is engaged in schism, he is inherently automatically excommunicated.
 
aussieboy said:
I would like to point out that Inqvisitor does not accept the doctrines espoused in the Second Vatican council of 1970, and, since he does not accept the authority of the reigning Pope, he is thus a Sedevecantist, a schismatic and, thus, he ought to be Latæ Sententiæ excommunicated from the Church.
:D
I recommend catechism class for you as well...
 
Which one? Your sedevacantist and schismatic version, or the catechism that is used by most Catholic churches?

You are a schismatic. Schism entails automatic excommunication.
 
aussieboy said:
Which one? Your sedevacantist and schismatic version, or the catechism that is used by most Catholic churches?
As a fallen away Catholic on his Journey Home. I would perfer the Catechism that is used by mainstream Catholicism. Not the sedevacanist and schismatic version that the Society of Pope Pius X uses.

The original intent of this thread is for Catholics who accept Vatican II to answer questions from non-Catholics about our faith. This thread however is not for Traditional SSPX sedevacantist and schismatic Catholics to answer. I shall edit the first post of this thread to reflect on that.
 
aussieboy said:
Which one? Your sedevacantist and schismatic version, or the catechism that is used by most Catholic churches?

You are a schismatic. Schism entails automatic excommunication.
Wow you also know how to do ad hominem attacks.

Am I a schismatic or a heretic as your signature says? Someone with basic understanding of the Catholic religion would know they are not the same...I believe I even posted such information in this thread so you can go cheat if you wish (though I doubt you care about Catholic beliefs)...
 
CivGeneral said:
As a fallen away Catholic on his Journey Home. I would perfer the Catechism that is used by mainstream Catholicism. Not the sedevacanist and schismatic version that the Society of Pope Pius X uses.
The SSPX does not have its own catechism.

The original intent of this thread is for Catholics who accept Vatican II to answer questions from non-Catholics about our faith. This thread however is not for Traditional SSPX sedevacantist and schismatic Catholics to answer. I shall edit the first post of this thread to reflect on that.
Good, keep those people out. Catholics who are in communion with Roma Aeterna should be the only responding.
 
CivGeneral said:
Youre not the only one Zarn, he has been lashing out on me based on the fact that I am a Post-Vatican II Catholic. Realy, his constant bombardment of calling me a heretic as well as a modernist is starting to turn me off from the Catholic faith and derailing my journey home :(.

When I said I put him into somone's shoes, I meant your shoes. I was on your side the entire time. ;)
 
Zarn said:
When I said I put him into somone's shoes, I meant your shoes. I was on your side the entire time. ;)
I give you many thanks Zarn for being on my side the whole time :D.

Inqvisitor said:
Wow you also know how to do ad hominem attacks.

Am I a schismatic or a heretic as your signature says? Someone with basic understanding of the Catholic religion would know they are not the same...I believe I even posted such information in this thread so you can go cheat if you wish (though I doubt you care about Catholic beliefs)...
I am sorry to say this but aussyboy is right on this one. You reject Vatican II. You are considered both a schismatic and a heretic in the eyes of mainstream Catholicism. Youre a schismatic since you believe that the vatican throne is empty and dont reconise that Pope Paul VI to Pope Benedict XVI. I am glad that youre not a Conclavist, then you would be realy treading in deap waters in schism and reconising an antipope.

Mainstream Catholicism considers you as a heretic since you dont accept Vatican II. I am not going to pull out any fancy scriptures, just a pure definition from webster.
Webster's Dictionary said:
Heretic
Noun
1 : a dissenter from established church dogma; especially : a baptized member of the Roman Catholic Church who disavows a revealed truth
2 : one who dissents from an accepted belief or doctrine :
By that definition, you and other Traditional Catholics who reject Vatican are heretics for Vatican II is an accepted doctrine, belief, and revealed truth in mainstream Catholicism. You can pull out a million scriptures but it does not change the fact.

Catechism of the Catholic Church said:
Paragraph 2089
Incredulity is the neglect of revealed truth or the willful refusal to assent to it. "Heresy is the obstinate post-baptismal denial of some truth which must be believed with divine and catholic faith, or it is likewise an obstinate doubt concerning the same; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Roman Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him."
Canon Law of the Catholic Church said:
Can. 751 Heresy is the obstinate denial or obstinate doubt after the reception of baptism of some truth which is to be believed by divine and Catholic faith; apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith; schism is the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him.

As Major Kusanagi would say: "or if thats too much, wear blindfold, zip your mouth, and live in a cave." - Major Motoko Kusanagi

from EWTN Catholic Network said:
The Special Danger of Ultra-Traditionalist Movements

There is within the Church today a special danger for those who, often for seemingly legitimate reasons (abuses of the liturgy, the open promotion of heresy even by clergy, and similar causes), have sought refuge in traditionalist movements on the margins of the Church. These groups, distinguishable from those who love the Tridentine tradition of the Mass and sacraments and who celebrate them in Communion with the Pope, go their own way outside of the laws of the Church. They typically rationalize their disobedience by attacking the Second Vatican Council, the current liturgical rites, ecumenical and interreligious dialogue, and often Pope John Paul II personally, never distinguishing between teaching and law on the one hand, and the abuse of it by dissenters and the disobedient on the other.

These groups, such as the Society of St. Pius X, of Pius V, the "We Resist You to Your Face" movement, Br. Dimond and Holy Family Monastery, make ready use of scandals to gain support among the unwary, who, discouraged by their local situation, may think they are joining a more perfect orthodoxy and a more loyal remnant of Catholics. Thankfully such motives may excuse the average person who takes comfort in such groups, at least initially, though as St. Thomas Aquinas teaches to take scandal in other's sins is istself sinful. However, there is a great danger that starting from the material schism of refusing submission to the Pope, that all these groups have in common, the Catholic cannot long maintain the schizophrenic position of saying they are being submissive to the Pope while disobeying him. At some point they must choose and formally adhere to the schism of the group. In some cases the group identity depends on some formal repudiation of the "Novus Ordo" Church, very effectively hastening the spiritual demise of the lay adherent.

Also unfortunate for such souls is the fact that these ultra-traditionalist groups profess to be doctrinally orthodox, an orthodoxy which necessarily includes the teaching that Outside the Church There Is No Salvation. This means that someone who has formally separated himself from the Church through heresy or schism, or knowing the Church to be true failed to enter her, cannot be saved, unless of course they renounce their own will and reconcile with the Church. Unlike the non-Catholic Christian, can the super-orthodox claim invincible ignorance of this teaching? Can they escape the condemnation of Pope Boniface VIII, who in first elaborating it said, "this authority, although it is given to man and is exercised by man, is not human, but rather divine, and has been given by the divine Word to Peter himself and to his successors in him, whom the Lord acknowledged an established rock, when he said to Peter himself: Whatsoever you shall bind etc. [Matt. 16:19]. Therefore, whosoever resists this power so ordained by God, resists the order of God ...? No wonder that given enough time such groups inevitably produce those who claim that the See of Peter is vacant, since the logic of their schismatic attitude is ultimately irreconcilable with the doctrine of papal primacy, as enunciated by both Pope Boniface and Vatican I.

And now back to the questions and hopefully get this thread back on track :)
 
CivGeneral said:
I give you many thanks Zarn for being on my side the whole time :D.I am sorry to say this but aussyboy is right on this one. You reject Vatican II. You are considered both a schismatic and a heretic in the eyes of mainstream Catholicism. Youre a schismatic since you believe that the vatican throne is empty and dont reconise that Pope Paul VI to Pope Benedict XVI. I am glad that youre not a Conclavist, then you would be realy treading in deap waters in schism and reconising an antipope.
I guess Pope Paul VI was also a heretic and schismatic to his own council for pointing out the obvious.

"We looked forward to a flowering, a serene expansion of concepts which matured in the great sessions of the Council... [instead, i]t is as if the Church were destroying herself. ...

"We have the impression that through some cracks in the wall the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God:... Doubt, uncertainty ,questioning, dissatisfaction, confrontation... We thought that after the Council a day of sunshine would have dawned for the history of the Church. What dawned, instead, was a day of clouds and storms, of darkness, of searching and uncertainties."
--Pope Paul VI
(29 June 1972, Feast of Sts. Peter & Paul for the
9th anniversary of his pontificate.)

Mainstream Catholicism considers you as a heretic since you dont accept Vatican II. I am not going to pull out any fancy scriptures, just a pure definition from webster.
Webster = ZERO authority
 
Inqvisitor said:
I guess Pope Paul VI was also a heretic and schismatic to his own council for pointing out the obvious.

"We looked forward to a flowering, a serene expansion of concepts which matured in the great sessions of the Council... [instead, i]t is as if the Church were destroying herself. ...

"We have the impression that through some cracks in the wall the smoke of Satan has entered the temple of God:... Doubt, uncertainty ,questioning, dissatisfaction, confrontation... We thought that after the Council a day of sunshine would have dawned for the history of the Church. What dawned, instead, was a day of clouds and storms, of darkness, of searching and uncertainties."
--Pope Paul VI
(29 June 1972, Feast of Sts. Peter & Paul for the
9th anniversary of his pontificate.)
Quite a conversational sermon you placed out and yet only proves that this quote is just a Traditionalist Movement's devense on the possition. What Pope Paul VI wrote was never fully explaned to what he was alluding to.

Inqvisitor said:
Webster = ZERO authority
Do you realy want to argue with the Canon Laws then? Both Webser's definition and whats on Canon Law 751 both esentialy mean the same thing.
 
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