Civics Balance Discussion

[ezzlar]

Slaves: I think this whole concept is too complicated for DoC/Civ4. Do you usually see a lot of slave plantations? Does the AI understand what to do? And this coupled with the fact that you get slaves very early but cant use them until hundreds of years later feels like a waste.

But it´s a good move if mercantilism becomes a way of doing slavery "somewhere else" in fact making it a slavery civic.

And so a suggestion for mercantilism:
+50% commerce in capital
-25% trade route yields
Double production speed of custom house
reduced expansion penalty for overseas colonies [does the AI understand this?]
[able to use overseas slaves]

But NerfCothons suggestion seems good as well.

City states could be removed, it is very weak and a small empire is never the road to success.

 

[Leoreth]

I really like the changes, but...

As much as I hate to say it, this might almost be too powerful. I can't imagine a game in which Mercantilism would not be immensely useful and worth switching over to as soon as it becomes available, or a game where I wouldn't actually target the required tech on my research path.

I agree, I wrote this up right before going to bed and before falling asleep I already felt that the civic was too effect heavy in general. That's not just a question of balance, I also feel that you need to be able to easily get a feel for what the civic actually does and if there is a bunch of bonuses without a discernible direction it's not a good thing.

I've pulling a blank on what could be removed, since all of these elements work thematically and fill a needed role in-game. The maintenance thing is needed because mercantilism is the major 'empire' civic, the capital gold bonus balances the negative trade route yield and fits the historical motivation for the mercantilist system in the first place, and the bonus slave commerce fits the historical reality that mercantilist empires almost always exploited slave labor on their colonies.

If I had to, I'd probably suggest removing or reducing the line for city distance maintenance. That should definitely be a feature of a civic -- ever since the 'stability' category was removed, we've needed something for large intercontinental empires -- but I'm not sure a civic in the 'economics' category is the best fit. Remind me, what are the civics in the 'Government' or 'Organization' category? Maybe one of those could be changed to fit?

Government:
- Dynasticism
- City States
- Theocracy
- Autocracy
- Republic

Organization:
- Vassalage
- Absolutism
- Representation
- Totalitarianism
- Egalitarianism

With that list it's pretty clear why I'm against the city distance modifier for Mercantilism, because Totalitarianism already has it. -50% colony maintenance is a good alternative. There isn't an XML tag for that but it's easily added.

Mercantilism - I never know what to suggest on Mercantilism. It is true that mercantilism is not a hard ban on international trade. After all exporting finished goods is the end game of mercantile policy. I think the -1 trade routes is probably a better capture of the policy effect. With such a change it would also be possible to have mercantilism double the production speed of customs houses (as custom houses would actually benefit mercantile civilizations). This supports mercantilism's role as a building civic that gets dropped once the civilization's economy has matured.

What's the thought on -1 trade routes vs. a negative trade commerce modifier? I think the latter is better because it better scales with era. One less trade route is more significant in the mid game when Mercantilism becomes available and should be good, while it has less impact later on.

Stealing slavery's plantation commerce bonus also makes sense because of mercantilism's focus on raw resources. However, this has the effect of improving the commerce produced throughout the empire, which isn't really appropriate as mercantilism focuses on enriching the core and not the colonies of an empire. The fact that mercantilism permits the use of slave plantations even without slavery is probably enough of a buff to plantations.

Good point.

I also feel like the +1 gold from specialists was a concession after the guilds buffs but doesn't really fit the civic. Would it be possible to have mercantilism double trade routes that include your capital, or empower custom houses to have such an effect? This would be a more organic capital buff that would still synergize with absolutism but not be as easily exploitable as the 50% gold bonus.

Yes on the bolded part. Actually it was an awkward idea to come up with something for Guilds before it switched civics in exchange for the workshop commerce.

The trade through capital effect sounds interesting, of course it also needs a new XML tag but it should be doable.

 

[NerfCothons]

You have a point there, although I'm currently looking into things to replace the plain modifier on Industrialism as well. But I keep it in mind.

So do you just not want flat 10% buffs to an entire commercial value and to replace those bonuses with something comparable?

Okay that's fair. I don't think Economy civics in general should provide happiness, and I want to reduce happiness from civics overall as previously explained. Instead of changing the civic again, reducing corporation unhappiness/unhealthiness instead is the better indirect buff to it.

Ok, so no raw happiness from buildings. It is probably more elegant to limit the number of bonuses anyway. I do want to point out though that I think Free Market should lead to an increase in unhappiness and unhealthiness (unregulated corporations doing whatever they want and all), but that choosing Free Market Civilizations should reap rewards for running Free Market that outweigh those penalties in a vacuum. As it stands the benefits from a corporation are largely balanced with the negatives created by that corporation (this is part of the problem we've encountered with crazy trade valuations by the AI). This renders the Free Market bonus corporation yield a net neutral. Free Market should tip that balance in favor of yield thus incentivizing the acquisition of more resources, yet should also create happiness and health problems that only well managed civilizations will be able to handle. So for any actual change to the civic, rather than (for example) -50% unhappiness and unhealthiness from corporations, the bonus corporation yield should be upped to 33% or 50% with a -25% unhappiness and unhealthiness bonus.

 

[NerfCothons]

Representation:
- +2 happiness in the 6 largest cities
- +1 gold per specialist
- (maybe: double production for Courthouse)

Egalitarianism:
- +1 free specialist
- +1 production for Town
- Unable to use Slaves
- Unhappiness in civilizations not running Egalitarianism

Double production speed for courthouse seems pretty meh, but it makes this civic very useful while dropping a zillion colonies down. If you are buffing egalitarianism as such, maybe it would be appropriate to move it later into the tech tree. Already representation and egalitarianism, which feel like the same track, are very close together in the tech tree.

 

[Leoreth]

So do you just not want flat 10% buffs to an entire commercial value and to replace those bonuses with something comparable?

I would prefer this. Those 10% are kind of awkward, and very obvious artifacts of my attempts at balancing them against the alternatives in the same column.

I prefer if the effects are more significant, but require more specific strategies to make use of. For instance, +2 beakers for specialists or +2 commerce for towns require to commit to a specific type of economy.

Ok, so no raw happiness from buildings. It is probably more elegant to limit the number of bonuses anyway. I do want to point out though that I think Free Market should lead to an increase in unhappiness and unhealthiness (unregulated corporations doing whatever they want and all), but that choosing Free Market Civilizations should reap rewards for running Free Market that outweigh those penalties in a vacuum. As it stands the benefits from a corporation are largely balanced with the negatives created by that corporation (this is part of the problem we've encountered with crazy trade valuations by the AI). This renders the Free Market bonus corporation yield a net neutral. Free Market should tip that balance in favor of yield thus incentivizing the acquisition of more resources, yet should also create happiness and health problems that only well managed civilizations will be able to handle. So for any actual change to the civic, rather than (for example) -50% unhappiness and unhealthiness from corporations, the bonus corporation yield should be upped to 33% or 50% with a -25% unhappiness and unhealthiness bonus.

I'm not sure I'm following: in the beginning you say that Free Market should lead to unhappiness/unhealthiness, but later you suggest reducing them as part of its effect. The corporation yield modifier does not impact unhappiness/unhealthiness, so the current Free Market already makes corporations more cost efficient. Everything else is more a question of the general balance between corporation yields and their penalties, and can be addressed independently of the civic.

 

[NerfCothons]

What's the thought on -1 trade routes vs. a negative trade commerce modifier? I think the latter is better because it better scales with era. One less trade route is more significant in the mid game when Mercantilism becomes available and should be good, while it has less impact later on.

My logic was to mirror Free Market's +1, so that a negative trade commerce modifier did not directly contradict the capital trade commerce bonus, and that mercantilism actually stifled trade meaning less of it, not that trade was less beneficial (although those are almost one in the same). However, your scaling point is well taken and -1 would probably not be the right penalty. What about a -50% modifier on international trade?

The colony maintenance modifier would accomplish the goal of being very useful in the early age of colonization yet at a decaying rate of return. maintenance modifiers in the economy civics feel inappropriate. Maintenance rates are a product of courthouse presence and civic choices, these seems to embody the effect of rule of law and the structure of society as a whole. I'm not sure how much mercantilism should help with this.

 

[Leoreth]

Double production speed for courthouse seems pretty meh, but it makes this civic very useful while dropping a zillion colonies down. If you are buffing egalitarianism as such, maybe it would be appropriate to move it later into the tech tree. Already representation and egalitarianism, which feel like the same track, are very close together in the tech tree.

I agree, and for what Egalitarianism represents it probably comes too early anyway.

There are two problems with this, though:
- Democracy not enabling a civic feels wrong, and it's the same for Constitution if Representation is moved there
- I wouldn't know which tech Egalitarianism should be moved to

If Egalitarianism actually gets the free specialist, I think the +1 production for Town can also be removed, and maybe be transferred to Industrialism.

Right now I'm kind of stuck with the Organization civics because I feel that the free specialist is still floating around, and I'm lacking a good effect that either civic there can take so they're both somewhat attractive.

 

[NerfCothons]

I'm not sure I'm following: in the beginning you say that Free Market should lead to unhappiness/unhealthiness, but later you suggest reducing them as part of its effect. The corporation yield modifier does not impact unhappiness/unhealthiness, so the current Free Market already makes corporations more cost efficient. Everything else is more a question of the general balance between corporation yields and their penalties, and can be addressed independently of the civic.

Ah, I misunderstood the civic. I assumed that the unhappiness and unhealthiness created by corporations was part of the corporation yield and was therefore increased by Free Market. My general feeling is that running Free Market should magnify both the benefits and harms of corporations, but that the civic is a bit weak at the moment. Therefore an addition of harms to the civic should also be balanced by a buff to the already existing bonuses.

 

[Leoreth]

My logic was to mirror Free Market's +1, so that a negative trade commerce modifier did not directly contradict the capital trade commerce bonus, and that mercantilism actually stifled trade meaning less of it, not that trade was less beneficial (although those are almost one in the same). However, your scaling point is well taken and -1 would probably not be the right penalty. What about a -50% modifier on international trade?

The colony maintenance modifier would accomplish the goal of being very useful in the early age of colonization yet at a decaying rate of return. maintenance modifiers in the economy civics feel inappropriate. Maintenance rates are a product of courthouse presence and civic choices, these seems to embody the effect of rule of law and the structure of society as a whole. I'm not sure how much mercantilism should help with this.

The bold parts are both very good points. I just tried to draft a new Mercantilism proposal based on the suggestions in this thread and realized how contradictory it sounded to have two modifiers with opposite effects on trade routes, effectively canceling each other out in capitals.

An alternate idea that I just had while writing this: how about an effect that instead of no foreign trade routes, only eliminates the yield modifier of foreign trade routes? Or would that basically end up being the same effect?

 

[NerfCothons]

An alternate idea that I just had while writing this: how about an effect that instead of no foreign trade routes, only eliminates the yield modifier of foreign trade routes? Or would that basically end up being the same effect?

Would those be the modifiers from buildings such as lighthouses and custom houses? If so, then we're back to a world where custom houses, the place where mercantile policy actually takes place, is a useless build under mercantile societies.

 

[NerfCothons]

I agree, and for what Egalitarianism represents it probably comes too early anyway.

There are two problems with this, though:
- Democracy not enabling a civic feels wrong, and it's the same for Constitution if Representation is moved there
- I wouldn't know which tech Egalitarianism should be moved to

If Egalitarianism actually gets the free specialist, I think the +1 production for Town can also be removed, and maybe be transferred to Industrialism.

Right now I'm kind of stuck with the Organization civics because I feel that the free specialist is still floating around, and I'm lacking a good effect that either civic there can take so they're both somewhat attractive.

I'll have to take a look at the game and the tech tree to get a better idea on techs. I really like the +1 production for towns as a bonus in a capstone, democratically leaning civic. Towns in many ways represent the ultimate goal when developing your territory. Unlike other improvements they require time and protection. Civilizations that encounter economic stability problems lose their towns. The hammer feels like a late game reward for committing to economic development that allows commercially focused civs to still generate the hammers necessary to build the increasingly expensive projects in the later game. They will never compete with watermills or workshops on production in the end game, but they still help.

 

[Leoreth]

Would those be the modifiers from buildings such as lighthouses and custom houses? If so, then we're back to a world where custom houses, the place where mercantile policy actually takes place, is a useless build under mercantile societies.

Lighthouse boosts overall trade income anyway. But I would also keep the Custom House effect. I was only thinking about the innate trade modifier you get for trading with a foreign city.

 

[Leoreth]

I'll have to take a look at the game and the tech tree to get a better idea on techs. I really like the +1 production for towns as a bonus in a capstone, democratically leaning civic. Towns in many ways represent the ultimate goal when developing your territory. Unlike other improvements they require time and protection. Civilizations that encounter economic stability problems lose their towns. The hammer feels like a late game reward for committing to economic development that allows commercially focused civs to still generate the hammers necessary to build the increasingly expensive projects in the later game. They will never compete with watermills or workshops on production in the end game, but they still help.

Yeah, that's true. I've always liked that effect on a late game democratic civic for that reason.

 

[NerfCothons]

Lighthouse boosts overall trade income anyway. But I would also keep the Custom House effect. I was only thinking about the innate trade modifier you get for trading with a foreign city.

Ok, then this would be an interesting change. I would worry it wouldn't have a negative enough effect to balance the civic but it is elegant and focused exactly where we want the negative effect. I would like to experiment with it.

So how about:
Mercantilism -
No innate commercial bonus to international trade
Double yield from trade through your capital
Double production speed for custom house
Reduced destabilizing effect from colonies

 

[NerfCothons]

I agree, and for what Egalitarianism represents it probably comes too early anyway.

There are two problems with this, though:
- Democracy not enabling a civic feels wrong, and it's the same for Constitution if Representation is moved there
- I wouldn't know which tech Egalitarianism should be moved to

Maybe Democracy as a tech should be later in the tech tree. The 19th and 20th century are pretty light on philosophical technologies. The only reason it is where it is is to match the founding of the United States, which based on your definitions of representation and egalitarianism earlier in this thread was probably more representation than egalitarianism. The statue of liberty could be bumped to representation if you felt this pushed the wonder back too much. Maybe a prereq of railroad or assembly line rather than education would be appropriate.

 

[calad]

You mean food? Is it the combination that makes it too strong?

I understood also you think late game super production is a problem. Planned economy gives so many extra hammers compared to any other civic it should be addressed. Also historically planned economy was not very effective in terms of economy and commerce, so something to think about is as well.

 

[Power_of_Beer]

I agree, and for what Egalitarianism represents it probably comes too early anyway.

There are two problems with this, though:
- Democracy not enabling a civic feels wrong, and it's the same for Constitution if Representation is moved there
- I wouldn't know which tech Egalitarianism should be moved to

If Egalitarianism actually gets the free specialist, I think the +1 production for Town can also be removed, and maybe be transferred to Industrialism.

Right now I'm kind of stuck with the Organization civics because I feel that the free specialist is still floating around, and I'm lacking a good effect that either civic there can take so they're both somewhat attractive.

Egalitarianism getting also the free specialist seems a bit to much... how about giving towns actually +2 ? It might sound a bit much, but the +1 bonus always felt a tad too weak. However, you will not have towns and/or the civic until late in the game (especially if a late plague hits you!). Getting the civic with Democracy always felt right though. Mass Media might be an alternative, but it comes pretty late.

I understood also you think late game super production is a problem. Planned economy gives so many extra hammers compared to any other civic it should be addressed. Also historically planned economy was not very effective in terms of economy and commerce, so something to think about is as well.

Yes compared to its historical "success" planned economy is really strong. Combined with Industrialism, any city can get ridiculous production. How about -10% , or completely forbid corporations?

 

[Leoreth]

Ok, then this would be an interesting change. I would worry it wouldn't have a negative enough effect to balance the civic but it is elegant and focused exactly where we want the negative effect. I would like to experiment with it.

So how about:
Mercantilism -
No innate commercial bonus to international trade
Double yield from trade through your capital
Double production speed for custom house
Reduced destabilizing effect from colonies

Looks good so far I think. Might be a bit weak, but it seems preferable to Guilds when it becomes available. Production for Custom House is at Naval Dominance right now, but it doesn't need to be. Maybe the Plantation commerce idea to round it off?

Egalitarianism getting also the free specialist seems a bit to much... how about giving towns actually +2 ? It might sound a bit much, but the +1 bonus always felt a tad too weak. However, you will not have towns and/or the civic until late in the game (especially if a late plague hits you!). Getting the civic with Democracy always felt right though. Mass Media might be an alternative, but it comes pretty late.

Maybe Democracy as a tech should be later in the tech tree. The 19th and 20th century are pretty light on philosophical technologies. The only reason it is where it is is to match the founding of the United States, which based on your definitions of representation and egalitarianism earlier in this thread was probably more representation than egalitarianism. The statue of liberty could be bumped to representation if you felt this pushed the wonder back too much. Maybe a prereq of railroad or assembly line rather than education would be appropriate.

Moving Democracy back sounds good, I agree that there are too few ideological techs later in the game. I think this civic topic really exposes how weak the tech tree is in some regards. Especially in the late game I want to make it more interesting, but right now we need to make do with what we have.

I think Constitution is an adequate representation of 18th-19th century political thought, and stuff like American democracy, which is adequately expressed by Republic + Representation, while things like European constitutional monarchies are Dynasticism + Representation. If Democracy comes later, it could be renamed Civil Liberties and have different prereqs. Not sure right now where it falls in context with other techs like Communism and Fascism. SoL at Constitution with maybe an extra tech requirement should be fine.

That doesn't completely answer the question which effects these civics should have. I think thematically Egalitarianism somewhat exists in the intersection between Representation and Public Welfare, so effects could be moved between those. Some additional ideas for currently unused effects:
- double Statesman slots (most appropriately Representation I think)
- reduced corporation unhappiness (suits Public Welfare in my opinion)

However things are assigned I feel that the free specialist is so strong that it should probably come with some sort of drawback in the same civic.

I understood also you think late game super production is a problem. Planned economy gives so many extra hammers compared to any other civic it should be addressed. Also historically planned economy was not very effective in terms of economy and commerce, so something to think about is as well.

Yes compared to its historical "success" planned economy is really strong. Combined with Industrialism, any city can get ridiculous production. How about -10% , or completely forbid corporations?

I think historically Planned Economy has been pretty good at heavy industry, and it also includes stuff like modern China so I wouldn't be so generalizing with that statement.

I like that the production comes from specialists, but 1 is already the lowest possible value so there isn't much wriggling room for a nerf.

Perhaps the civic should have another drawback instead? Reduced corporation yield/spread? City maintenance?

 

[Leoreth]

I've thought a bit about the military column, and one central aspect of it should be that they cannot buff your empire economically. This means we're limited to effects directly related to warfare. I could think of the following:
- unit production (possibly by domain type)
- conscription
- great general emergence
- war weariness
- hurrying units with gold
- free units
- producing units with food
- production of military buildings (Barracks ...)
- production of defensive buildings (Walls ...)

Another idea I had was a Pacifism civic replacing Warrior Code as a late game civic.
- Low upkeep
- +100% war weariness
- +1 gold per military unit
- free specialist in all cities

This way the free specialist effect is moved to the late game and associated with significant drawbacks.

 

[ezzlar]

Since war disrupts trade and shifts resource allocations to war efforts most free trade participants should dislike war. Free market should have a +25 war weariness effect.

And planned economy should not be able to engage in international trade. The government cant set prices while allowing free trade.