Civics Balance Discussion

[NerfCothons]

I don't think there are enough possible military bonuses to come up with another military civic, and historically it also becomes problematic because going into a different level of detail also raises questions about the other civics.

I see Pacifism as an opt out of what the Military columns as a whole represents, similar to how Secularism exists in the Religion column. I've also seen the problem of Pacifism as a strict concept not really being applicable to history in the scope of DoC. However there are countries that deliberately reduced the capabilities of their military and remain sceptic to its use as a tool for anything other than self defense, most notably Germany and Japan. Pacifism may not be the correct word to represent that outlook, honestly I mainly chose it because it has a clear meaning in the context of this tree and already existed in BtS.

I briefly considered other names such as Non-Interventionism (too long) or Self Defense (maybe?) but didn't find them satisfying. If anyone has a better idea to name such a civic, I am open to suggestions.

By the way, I also plan to associate additional stability bonuses for defensive pacts with such a civic.

If you're trying to capture modern Germany and Japan then my issue is partially with the name. According to google pacifism is: "the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances, and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means." There isn't really a country that follows that ethos when applies to their military (maybe Costa Rica, but since when have you let the Mayans dictate anything?). It also sounds like that isn't the idea you are getting at, so what does work? We can always turn to the German language for short single words to explain such concepts. Wikipedia suggests Katastropheneinsatz; it really rolls off the tongue. Kidding aside it sounds like you're getting at the concept of international reliance. The belief not that all war is inherently wrong, but that there are other people more eager to do the fighting so let's let them take care of it. Self-Defense works although it doesn't really capture the other half of the concept which is that the military is only for self-defense. NATO calls its role "Collective Defense", maybe that will do.

Gameplay-wise, I think you might be able to take the stability bonuses for defensive pacts even further. What about -2 happiness for having no defense pacts but +1 happiness for each defense pact?

I also think Mercenaries could use some help. Upon recruitment mercenaries get a 2g cost promotion. Could they also get some experience to help them be more useful in the short term? After all it's not like you're going around grabbing farmers and asking them if they would like to be paid to fight. Would it be possible to give mercenaries an extra two experience (with the expectation that combined with the three from a barracks new mercenaries would start with two promotions)? Or could you have mercenaries just start with a fixed five experience regardless of the building city's infrastructure (which shouldn't affect newly hired mercenaries anyway)? This should allow mercenaries to be a better solution to short term wars or emergencies.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Mercenaries really should get extra experience. If it isn't already the case, the civic should lower war weariness as well. After all if you pay professionals to do the dirty work your average joe is less affected by your conquering.

 

[Leoreth]

If you're trying to capture modern Germany and Japan then my issue is partially with the name. According to google pacifism is: "the belief that any violence, including war, is unjustifiable under any circumstances, and that all disputes should be settled by peaceful means." There isn't really a country that follows that ethos when applies to their military (maybe Costa Rica, but since when have you let the Mayans dictate anything?). It also sounds like that isn't the idea you are getting at, so what does work? We can always turn to the German language for short single words to explain such concepts. Wikipedia suggests Katastropheneinsatz; it really rolls off the tongue. Kidding aside it sounds like you're getting at the concept of international reliance. The belief not that all war is inherently wrong, but that there are other people more eager to do the fighting so let's let them take care of it. Self-Defense works although it doesn't really capture the other half of the concept which is that the military is only for self-defense. NATO calls its role "Collective Defense", maybe that will do.

Katastropheneinsatz means disaster relief and in the German context is only relevant as an exception to the provisions against deployment of military units inside of Germany.

I couldn't really think of a word in either language ... collective defense might work however.

 

[Publicola]

How about 'Internationalism'?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

How about 'Internationalism'?

That sounds more like something a communist civ should run.

 

[Publicola]

Here's the disambiguation page on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalism

It's true that Internationalism was originally a movement within the socialist/communist ideology. However, I was more applying it to Woodrow Wilson's League of Nations, the eventual creation of the UN, and the political movement in the West that favors international cooperation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internationalism_(politics)#Modern_expression

Another acceptable term would be 'Multilateralism,' but that is more a 'term of art' within the IR community and may not be as intuitive to the average player. Here's its Wikipedia page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multilateralism

I actually like this idea quite a bit -- crafting a civic that meshes with the UN, Defensive Pacts, trade routes, etc.

We might even repurpose the obsoleted mercenary system for use -- instead of 'hiring out' units as mercenaries, you can 'contribute' (?) units for use by a multinational coalition (UN Peacekeepers?). They'd gain experience (without requiring you to declare war), and you'd gain foreign approval by other nations within the UN or within your network of Defensive Pacts. Lots of potential there.

 

[Vectors]

Representation - Seems like it's in a solid place. Absolutism would obviously be superior if happiness weren't an issue, but when does that ever happen.

Egalitarianism - Breaking up the synergy between en masse specialist slots and the specialist science bonus was good. It also makes sense that public welfare would synergize with egalitarianism. Maybe doubled specialist slots for egalitarianisms could include statesmen as well. It seems strange that the shift from representation to egalitarianism would limit political participation.

Pacifism - Upon reflection I am not a fan of pacifism as a military civic within the context of DoC. While there are historic examples of pacifist societies, they are hardly the type to be represented by player controlled civilizations. I understand that you wanted to find a place to put the free specialist and that it had to be a civic with genuine downsides but pacifism doesn't fit the game or history. Gameplay-wise very few civilizations can responsibly run an army small enough with an empire wide enough to justify the free specialists. Wars also often last much longer than players have control over. This seems like a trap civic that players with less experience may fall into. I actually liked your idea for professionalism and would rather come up with an ancient era alternate to mercenaries or a pre-enlightenment alternate to levy armies rather than an end-game alternative.



Late game populations in high food areas exploded and once available specialist slots got maxed out there were a lot of citizens in cities. Granted, this was back before population scaling; because of city scaling I was building more spread out cities than I would now. Screwy may be an overstatement but after playing a few games with the change I reverted it.

What do you mean population scaling?

 

[Visard]

How about moving City States to Alphabet so that some civs can actually use it, and Greece and Phoenicia could even start with it?

 

[calad]

How about 'Internationalism'?

Globalism is a bit more neutral.

 

[Panopticon]

"Pacifism" is a good idea, whatever its name. I really enjoyed the concept from the Planetfall mod that uses UN membership as a civic constraining your ability to profit from military conquest. I'm also reminded of the "Sign the Geneva Convention" decision from Paradox's Victoria II (and maybe Victoria I, I don't remember), which limits your military potential in exchange for a better diplomatic position.

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

How about moving City States to Alphabet so that some civs can actually use it, and Greece and Phoenicia could even start with it?

Is that still not the case? This should be the case.

 

[Publicola]

Globalism is a bit more neutral.

Dang, I think I like your suggested name more than any of mine. Either way, I like the concept of a 'globalism' military civic more than 'pacifism' civic, and I think there's a lot of new and different options available for such a focus.

 

[NerfCothons]

I'd probably say multilateralism is the best of the options given so far, as what Panopticon said is true, the international component is what makes the civic interesting. I think it would be interesting if the civic itself also restricted the player from just out and declaring war without either a UN vote or a triggering defense pact.

This may be overly restrictive, but if it is it's because only one civilization can move for initiatives at a time. Perhaps the secretary general should in fact be a security council made up of 3-6 civilizations. X civilizations could be voted in as the secretary general is currently while top GDP, land area, and soldier count (USA, Russia, China in modern history) could also make their own initiatives as de facto security council members. This probably oversteps the scope of the discussion but I think it would render a multilateralism civic very interesting.

Meanwhile I wonder if standing army should get a minimal draft ability. It seems weird that autocracy is required for a draft when the governmental system is not a limitation on the ability to draft in reality. The limiting factor on drafts should be happiness and not units anyway. As far as balance is concerned standing army need only be balanced against naval domination and whatever the global civic will end up being which is in flux and I expect will end up being powerful. Naval domination could use a exp and/or economic buff (double production speed of lighthouses, additional hammers or commerce from fishing boats, +X% trade route value in coastal cities, etc.).

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, the balance of the Standing Army/Naval Dominance/Globalism triple is still up in the air. I'm rather happy with everything else, the new effects have been implemented already behind the scenes. By the way, does anyone have a better name for Naval Dominance? It's always been a bit awkward imo.

Also, I really want to thank everyone in this thread for their contributions. The discussion here has really been phenomenal, and I'm sure I'd still be stuck in mental loops trying to move effects around.

 

[DarkLunaPhantom]

By the way, does anyone have a better name for Naval Dominance? It's always been a bit awkward imo.

Thalassocracy?

 

[trevor]

Thalassocracy?

Mahanism?

 

[Imperator Knoedel]

Those names are even worse! Just rename it to Naval Supemacy/Superiority.

 

[Hojsimpson]

I don't like "Supremacy/superiority/dominance" because it sounds like describing the civs status than describing their civic.

Something like Seafaring fits better as a civic name.
Naval warfare. Overseas army. etc etc

 

[merijn_v1]

What about "Military civic that focuses on naval military"? It might be a bit too long for the civic screen, but it does cover it up nicely.

 

[Leoreth]

"Military civic that focuses on naval military, but also some economic benefits, but not as much as that other civic with military penalties"

Description: see above.