Civilization elimination thread

[Avatan]

Arabia 24
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 16
Carthage 23
China 24
Egypt 6 - 2 = 4
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13 + 1 = 14
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 2

Egypt: poor UU, rather weak UA at high diff at it won't really make a real difference, nice UB even though it has been nerfed through the happiness boost. Plus they are the juiciest civ to destroy thanks to UB.

France: I like the two time development, first 4 cultural cities with peace & tradition, then killing every neighbor one at a time. It fits me well on big maps.

 

[lollibast]

What I find off is that both UUs are gunpowder units, and for most of its period of military supremacy, France relied most heavily on superior cavalry, not gunpowder infantry. The Musketeer's fair enough for all that it owes more to Dumas than to history, but the Foreign Legion is a bizarre choice of UU.

It is indeed odd. French military has not been superior since Napoleon's defeat. So a UU, say "Corps d'esprit" somewhere between musketeers and riflemen (yould be either) would best qualify. And if it has to be a second one, i agree to french cavalry.

 

[Mesix]

Maya is weak because the extra great people are not free. At first glance, it looks cool to get great people to pop automatically from the long count, but you are forced to take great people you don't necessarily want and the cost of future great people increases with each "free" one generated by the long count. In the long run, it is more of a unique penalty.

Great People you generate normally - or from Pisa or Porcelain Tower, come to that - aren't free either. Does the Babylonian GS now increase future GP points? There's no penalty to the Maya UA - you get exactly the same increase in GP cost you would from generating 5 GPs (Admirals and Generals don't increase the GP point count) normally, you just do so more quickly. And there's nothing weak about a civ that gets an Academy a couple of turns after Theology - look how favoured Babylon is for getting the same deal a couple of techs earlier, and without following that up with well-timed GEs or Great Prophets, or the science boost from Pyramids. The only limitation is that you have to select GPs that may not be optimal for your strategy in place of later GPs that might be better, but that's not a restriction that makes the Maya weak - it's one that stops them from being too powerful.

This last sentence is exactly the point I was making rephrased. If I want to generate a GA, GE, or GS for a strategic reason, I don't want to have unnecessary great people increasing the cost of said targeted great people. Maya is the Jack of all trades but the master of none. For a beginner player who doesn't know how to specialize cities, manage specialists, or target the finish time of great people, having them pop sporadically throughout the game is a nice feature. Once the game mechanics are understood, having great people increase in cost while not getting the great person of strategic choice is a liability, not an asset, to the player's strategy.

 

[PhilBowles]

Arabia 22
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 16
Carthage 23
China 24
Egypt 6 - 2 = 4
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13 + 1 = 14
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 16
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 3

the foreign legion isn't that bizarre as that is one of the things there most known for these days you here more about the French Foreign Legion then say the Spanish Foreign Legion its just gotten more media hype than almost anything else about the country with the possible exception of the musketeer.

But it's not a particularly notable military formation, it's just known for a legend about people joining it to forget. Something like Napoleon's Imperial Guard replacing Cavalry would be well-known and would reflect France's military history as a cavalry power.

This last sentence is exactly the point I was making rephrased.

Yes, but you were making it as your sole point - I was, indeed, making it as the last sentence. Looking at it in isolation is like looking at the Keshik or Turtle Ship and seeing only a unit that can't take cities or cross oceans respectively. Yet if the Turtle Ship could cross oceans, becoming faster and able to hit otherwise inaccessible coastal cities, it would be completely broken. It's not weak because it can't cross oceans; it's a necessary cost to balance it.

If I want to generate a GA, GE, or GS for a strategic reason, I don't want to have unnecessary great people increasing the cost of said targeted great people. Maya is the Jack of all trades but the master of none. For a beginner player who doesn't know how to specialize cities, manage specialists, or target the finish time of great people, having them pop sporadically throughout the game is a nice feature. Once the game mechanics are understood, having great people increase in cost while not getting the great person of strategic choice is a liability, not an asset, to the player's strategy.

Firstly, it will be a rare situation when you have more than one or two unwanted GPs who add to the cost, Secondly, you're looking at it from the perspective of 'typical' GP generation. Do I want to invest in market specialists to produce GMs? Unless I'm playing for diplo, no. There's a cost of using specialists in place of working tiles in order to get a GP type I don't particularly need; moreover, where you put the effort into produce one GM, without a level of micromanagement most people don't apply to their specialists, you'll end up with more than one GM. That is generally undesirable - exchanging one GS for a Customs House, say, is at best trivial and in some cases can be a good investment; it's the mentality that producing one GP type means specialising in and so producing more of that GP type that sees it as a penalty. And as with any civ, you want to play to its strengths. You know what you're getting with the Maya, so you play to strategy that lets you find a use for each of your GPs (though the Admiral by its nature simply won't be relevant on all maps, however this doesn't increase the GP count), you don't just look at the strategy you typically use and decide the civ's bad because it doesn't suit it, any more than you would downvote France because you only play OCC.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Arabia 22
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 16
Carthage 23
China 24
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 14
Korea 24
Maya 25
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 1
Sweden 4

Sweden is both powerful, and fun and different. Peaceful builder the first half of the game (more my style) then switch to the HULK once you hit rifling. I wonder if people haven't played them enough yet.

Japan. Booor-ring.

 

[sherbz]

Arabia 22
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 16
Carthage 23
China 24
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 14
Korea 24
Maya 26 +1
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Songhai 0 -2
Sweden 4

I dont really have much of an opinion on the whole Sweden thing. I always thought they were ok. Songhai have gone though.

Maya get another vote from me though. They are so awesome.

 

[Lord Kid]

Arabia 22
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 16
Carthage 23
China 25
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 14
Korea 24
Maya 26
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Sweden 2

China is just great fun to play with. Their UA is kinda underwhelming, but their UU and UB more than make up for it.

Sweden, what can I say? Fairly useless UA, I'd rather donate money or perform quests than give up my GP's. Caroleans are pretty beastly, but I'm not really impressed by their other UU.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Arabia 22

Sweden, what can I say? Fairly useless UA, I'd rather donate money or perform quests than give up my GP's. Caroleans are pretty beastly, but I'm not really impressed by their other UU.

You need to use it selectively (like getting a CS right on the other side of a civ you're about to DoW on).

 

[Buccaneer]

I like the idea of skipping votes if no reasons are given but that will complicate the scoring updates though.

 

[Captain Fargle]

Arabia 22
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 14 (-2)
Carthage 23
China 25
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 14
Korea 24
Maya 26
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Sweden 3 (+1)

I'm astonished at how much hate Sweden is getting. An extremely powerful UA and one of the best UU's in the game (Caroleans). The Hakkapelitta is pretty crap sure, but the other bonuses more than make up for it. By far my favourite Civ in the game.

Byzantium on the other hand? I don't like them at all. Dromons are cool and all but Cataphracts are dull as hell and their UA depends on not only getting a religion, but getting one before all the good bonuses are gone. All too often Byzantium isn't even going to get a religion at all and in that case Dromons just aren't going to make up for it.

 

[theguy8882]

Arabia 23
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 12
Carthage 23
China 25
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 8
Japan 14
Korea 24
Maya 26
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Sweden 2

I upvoted the Arabians again for two reasons. Firtsly I just one my first emperor game as them, and secondly people have been downvoting them and I don't want them to be in the middle they have to be at the top.

I don't like the Byzantines. My problem with them is that you need to make sure your religion has a lot of cities or else it isn't that great. I don't think they're UUs have any synergy which is a problem. The Byzantines should have gotten a unique religous building instead of two UUs. I think the cataphract is good, but I don't particularly like the dromon.

 

[Dogmouth]

Arabia 23
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 10 (-2)
Carthage 23
China 25
Egypt 6
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 9 (+1)
Japan 14
Korea 24
Maya 26
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Sweden 3

My poor, sweet Songhai. I'm not going to let the Iroquois die next! They're a production powerhouse with synergistic characteristics that are very easy to get up and running quickly. Minus to the Byzantines for same reasons as theguy8882 and Captain Fargle, although I like dromons quite a bit.

 

[loki75]

The rage around sweden is fun ! Haven't tried them yet, so I can't really comment on usefulness of their UA.

 

[bcaiko]

Arabia 23
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 10
Carthage 23
China 25
Egypt 4 (-2)
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 9
Japan 15 (+1)
Korea 24
Maya 26
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Sweden 3

Japan: Must love Samurai Musketmen.

Egypt: Really deserve to go before Sweden.

 

[Leviat]

I also agree that no reason should be no vote.

Arabia 23
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 10
Carthage 23
China 25
Egypt 2
England 20
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 10
Japan 15
Korea 24
Maya 26
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Sweden 3

Egypt: Next voter, please kill them. One of the worst UU's in the game, and an inflexible UA that becomes a non-factor on higher levels.

Iroquois: What more can I say about them? Rather than write something new, here's what I posted last time...
"1.) Cheap, early trade routes nets you significantly more gold from trade routes than arabia early on. Think about it. It's nearly roadless trade routes, saving you ~4 gold/route, versus +1 gold/route for arabia.
2.) Ironless swordsman UU with a 33% bonus in forest/jungle. Get IW, get Math, get unlimited Mohawk Warriors and Catapults.
4.) Longhouse is a huge production boon. With the forest start bias, your first 3-4 cities will have plenty of forests. Lumber Mill + Longhouse and a simple forest gets a 1 food, 3 prod tile.

So plop down your first 3-4 cities, mass an army of Mohawks and Catapults, and go to town on your neighbors. Or stay small and use your production advantage to spam wonders and build infrastructure faster than any other civ. And don't sweat about protecting your lands; you've got units with a 33% forest bonus sitting in forest tiles."

 

[Monthar]

So Korea can get four cities up and build amphitheaters or markets in all four by the time they research writing? Maybe I should start playing Korea more often.

What I was saying, which you so clearly choose to ignore, is it only takes 1 more tech for Korea to start making the same same BPT as Babylon with an academy. With Korea's tech boost, they can get to that tech fairly quickly by just building the library in the capital. So at most Babylon will have a few turns lead on reaching Education even if both civs beeline to Education. However, once Korea hits Education, it will shoot past Babylon in tech and stay ahead of them.

 

[Charlieguns]

Arabia 23
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 10
Carthage 23
China 23 (-2)
Egypt 2
England 21 (+1)
Ethiopia 16
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 10
Japan 15
Korea 24
Maya 26
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 17
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Sweden 3

China: I just don't know what to do with lots of generals. I use one for battles and build a couple of citadels..... but generals keep coming.
I also think that it's the worst AI in the game. Always stays with one or two cities.

England: Longbows, sea movement, ships, spies.....

 

[truenarnian]

the foreign legion isn't that bizarre as that is one of the things there most known for these days you here more about the French Foreign Legion then say the Spanish Foreign Legion its just gotten more media hype than almost anything else about the country with the possible exception of the musketeer.

Which shows a depressingly "American" bias. Rather than give units or Ux's that showcase historically important parts of the culture, the developers chose the things (at least in France's case) that are iconic American media representations. (I know Dumas's book is French, but it exists in the minds of the American consumers because of American/British media.)

 

[shadowplay]

Sorry... I didn't realize we were required to elaborate. I down-voted Iroquois because I think their ability is weak relative to what most of the other (non-eliminated) civilizations get. I upvoted Greece for the exact opposite reason, I think their bonus is quite strong. I admit I'm focusing more on UA's rather than UU's or UB's.

Feel free to disagree with me. But can I have my votes reinstated please?

 

[truenarnian]

Arabia 23
Aztecs 21
Babylon 22
Byzantium 10
Carthage 23
China 23
Egypt 2
England 21
Ethiopia 17
France 13
Greece 22
Inca 26
Iroquois 10
Japan 15
Korea 24
Maya 26
Mongolia 12
Netherlands 23
Ottoman Empire 17
Persia 15
Roman Empire 22
Russia 22
Siam 18
Sweden 3

+: Ethiopia. It's funny because so many of you are Deity players and so (understandably) rate the civs on their performance at high levels, but for me Civ has always been about theme, and I often create situations or give myself restrictions to that end. (Like taking Polynesia on Continents plus and my first city has to be offshore.) So today I am upping Ethiopia. I love sub-Saharan civs, and I can't see this one go away any time soon. And I love Ethiopia in every iteration of Civ. I'll save some reasons for future up votes.

-: Persia. It's weird that the aesthetic of a civ could bother me this much, but I hate the McDonald's colour scheme and the Immortal icon. In theory I should like this civ because I like playing for Golden Ages, but they've gone from one of my favorite civs to my most hated. And every game I can ever remember having them in, they've been terrible, unreasonable neighbours. I'll think of some new reasons by tomorrow's downvote.