[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

the issue is we don’t really have one to begin with

while scotland is often piled into celtic countries it’s not really celtic at all and this version of it especially isn’t
I can agree that this version isn't the most Celtic that it could have been but that still doesn't necessarily mean I need or want another Celtic civ in this game with space already getting limited, but I wouldn't be mad if we did.

Currently my needs are Portugal, because it was the world's first global empire, at least another Mesopotamia Civ, another North America tribe preferably located in the U.S., and some form of Byzantines whether it be it's own civ or a Roman alt leader. I also don't feel like I'm alone in wanting these either.

As for wants that's definitely both Vietnam and Italy. I'd also bee fine with some pre-Islamic Berber civ from North Africa if but I think that is the least likely, though I'm not ruling it out as a possibility. I'd definitely want other things even before them though.
I also think Austria is a little too much to ask at this point but maybe Maria Theresa could eventually get in the game somehow? :mischief:

As far as map-gap goes, Venice is nice because it fills out a bit of Croatia (and Serbia and Albania) that wouldn't be caught by Hungary or Bulgaria. But Genoa also snags a nice bit of Crimea. My OCD side wants both.
I'm not sure the map gap theory works in Europe any more.
 
I don't put much faith in wishlists that just parrot prior ideas though. Before civ V, Venice wasn't even on anyone's radar, and had it been proposed it would have been rejected by many as too bizarre.

I would not mind a return of Venice. But given that art is iterative and I feel like VI should improve on V instead of just repeat it, I want more. Like perhaps Venice and Genoa DLC pack with a "control the Mediterranean" scenario.

As far as map-gap goes, Venice is nice because it fills out a bit of Croatia (and Serbia and Albania) that wouldn't be caught by Hungary or Bulgaria. But Genoa also snags a nice bit of Crimea. My OCD side wants both.
But this is not a matter of faith, or correctness but objective fact that people mention they want some Civs to have back. Venice is among them. That's all :D:D
 
I'm not sure the map gap theory works in Europe any more.

Yeah not for Italy anyway.

Another interesting thought: we have been comparing this season's civ split to the expansion packs, which each featured two European civs (Scotland/Dutch, Hungary/Sweden) plus a European-ish slot (Georgia, Eleanor). But the first round of DLC did not actually follow this rule: we only got one European civ (Poland) and one European-ish civ (Macedon).

I think we can potentially hope for six or even seven non-European civs in NFP.
 
Yeah not for Italy anyway.

Another interesting thought: we have been comparing this season's civ split to the expansion packs, which each featured two European civs (Scotland/Dutch, Hungary/Sweden) plus a European-ish slot (Georgia, Eleanor). But the first round of DLC did not actually follow this rule: we only got one European civ (Poland) and one European-ish civ (Macedon).

I think we can potentially hope for six or even seven non-European civs in NFP.
Macedon is European though with the original kingdom of Macedon solely located in present-day Europe. :confused:
 
Macedon is European though with the original kingdom of Macedon solely located in Europe. :confused:
It's not fair and very artificial, but in my mind I separate ancient/classical mediterranean area civs from the rest of the more modern Europe. Again that's probably just my euro-centric mindset.
 
Macedon is European though with the original kingdom of Macedon solely located in Europe. :confused:

It may have started in "Macedonia" but it primarily spread through and capitalized on the infrastructure that already existed in the Persian empire. I consider Macedon at least as equally if not more Middle Eastern than European.

It's not fair and very artificial, but in my mind I separate ancient/classical mediterranean area civs from the rest of the more modern Europe. Again that's probably just my euro-centric mindset.

Also this. Frankly Macedon uniquely occupies a space in my brain completely separate from every other civ in the game. It seems to have been created not because Macedon was a particularly influential empire, but simply to include Alexander in the game. It's the only empire on the roster (aside from arguably Gran Colombia now) which really amounted more to a massive, narcissistic cult of personality more than a lasting polity.
 
I just thought one mechanic that could be amazing and distintictive for a Italy Civ. In Civ 5, each italian civ was a CS with a different bonus (maritime, trade, cultural, scientific...). Italy UA could be building 2 of the same district in the same city. I can see Bologna as a 2 Campus city, or Venice with 2 Harbors. Maybe some other bonus for flavor, but it could be playable.
 
It seems to have been created not because Macedon was a particularly influential empire, but simply to include Alexander in the game. It's the only empire on the roster (aside from arguably Gran Colombia now) which really amounted more to a massive, narcissistic cult of personality more than a lasting polity.
I'd add Sumeria to that list. Not that Sumer itself wasn't hugely important, but its in-game incarnation really is just Gilgamesh, the whole Gilgamesh, and nothing but Gilgamesh.
 
I'd add Sumeria to that list. Not that Sumer itself wasn't hugely important, but its in-game incarnation really is just Gilgamesh, the whole Gilgamesh, and nothing but Gilgamesh.

Eh many of the civs have leaders which are intended to "personify" their cultures and playstyles, and I do not see Gilgamesh as all that different from Dido, Kupe, Cyrus, or Tamar. Sumeria seems to have been designed for its own sake and implemented as an Ur-civ, and then Gilgamesh chosen as a personification of that design.

Whereas I look at the design of Macedon and it all looks cobbled together just to include Alexander in the game. Which is historically accurate, since the entire empire only existed for the sake of this one narcissist to name as many cities as possible after himself.

If NFP is following the pattern of expansions, we will have 3 European leaders: a Portuguese, a Byzantine and what else? an Italian? a Gallic? an alternative leader for a European civilization? What's more likely?

Did you not just read what I posted not five posts above you?

Yeah not for Italy anyway.

Another interesting thought: we have been comparing this season's civ split to the expansion packs, which each featured two European civs (Scotland/Dutch, Hungary/Sweden) plus a European-ish slot (Georgia, Eleanor). But the first round of DLC did not actually follow this rule: we only got one European civ (Poland) and one European-ish civ (Macedon).

I think we can potentially hope for six or even seven non-European civs in NFP.
 
Sumeria seems to have been designed for its own sake and implemented as an Ur-civ, and then Gilgamesh chosen as a personification of that design.
But...there's very little that's Sumerian about the design. A more Sumerian design to me would be bonus faith from Monuments (priest-kings and all that), bonus food from farms with fresh water (early irrigation), and a focus on small empires with big cities (like the Maya). Ziggurats are Sumerian, of course, but the design looks more Mesoamerican to me--and a unique improvement was the wrong choice for them. They should have been a Shrine replacement that generates culture. That leaves the War Cart, which may or may not have been actually used in combat but despite that is probably the most Sumerian thing about the civ. So to me the civ still looks 100% Epic of Gilgamesh.

Dido...Cyrus
Uh, what about Phoenicia and Persia looks particularly unique to their respective leaders? Phoenicia is all about trade and coastal colonization--just like historical Phoenicia. Cyrus' portrayal isn't even particularly historical, but the Pairidaeza and Satrapy bonuses are things I'd more associate with his successors like Darius and Xerxes.
 
Uh, what about Phoenicia and Persia looks particularly unique to their respective leaders? Phoenicia is all about trade and coastal colonization--just like historical Phoenicia. Cyrus' portrayal isn't even particularly historical, but the Pairidaeza and Satrapy bonuses are things I'd more associate with his successors like Darius and Xerxes.
I agree. If they wanted to focus in more on Dido they could have just called the civ Carthage again or made Hannibal as the leader with African War Elephants as a UU.
 
I've shared these thoughts before but this time I'm using fancy color-coding. :crazyeye:

(Bear in mind that I've de-blobbed civs like the Celts and Polynesia based on inclusion of new, more specific civs. I also blobbed Venice into Italy, which is in high-demand.)

My opinion of the likelihood of inclusion in NFP:

Already Included
Most Likely
Somewhat Likely

Unlikely
Very Unlikely

Previously-Included Civs
Assyria
Austria
Babylon
Byzantium

Britons (Boudica's Celts)
Denmark

Ethiopia
Gaul (Brennus' Celts)
Hawai'i (Kamehameha's Polynesia)
Hittites
Huns

Iroquois
Italy (Dandolo's Venice)

Maya
Morocco (or Berbers?)
Portugal
Shoshone
Siam
Sioux

Songhai

Popular Suggestions New to the Franchise
Apache/Navajo
Ashanti/Benin
Bulgaria/Romania
Burma
Cherokee/Creek
Gran Colombia
Goths
Ireland

Kilwa/Swahili
Kushans
Palmyra/Syria
Timurids/Gurkhani

Vietnam
Zimbabwe/Mutapa

The only ones I put as most likely are the remaining civs from my old "most wanted" shortlist: Babylon, Byzantium and Portugal. (Maya and Ethiopia already being confirmed.) The other opinions are fairly self-explanatory. Since there are only two remaining slots assuming the most likely candidates are included, most of these would have to wait for a possible Final Frontier season. Fingers crossed!
 
I've shared these thoughts before but this time I'm using fancy color-coding. :crazyeye:

(Bear in mind that I've de-blobbed civs like the Celts and Polynesia based on inclusion of new, more specific civs. I also blobbed Venice into Italy, which is in high-demand.)

My opinion of the likelihood of inclusion in NFP:

Already Included
Most Likely
Somewhat Likely

Unlikely
Very Unlikely

Previously-Included Civs
Assyria
Austria
Babylon
Byzantium

Britons (Boudica's Celts)
Denmark

Ethiopia
Gaul (Brennus' Celts)
Hawai'i (Kamehameha's Polynesia)
Hittites
Huns

Iroquois
Italy (Dandolo's Venice)

Maya
Morocco (or Berbers?)
Portugal
Shoshone
Siam
Sioux

Songhai

Popular Suggestions New to the Franchise
Apache/Navajo
Ashanti/Benin
Bulgaria/Romania
Burma
Cherokee/Creek
Gran Colombia
Goths
Ireland

Kilwa/Swahili
Kushans
Palmyra/Syria
Timurids/Gurkhani

Vietnam
Zimbabwe/Mutapa

The only ones I put as most likely are the remaining civs from my old "most wanted" shortlist: Babylon, Byzantium and Portugal. (Maya and Ethiopia already being confirmed.) The other opinions are fairly self-explanatory. Since there are only two remaining slots assuming the most likely candidates are included, most of these would have to wait for a possible Final Frontier season. Fingers crossed!
i’d change the timurids yellow and ireland to orange

one of Navajo or a PNW tribe is green
 
Last edited:
But...there's very little that's Sumerian about the design.

What is there is Sumerian. It's just extremely simple because it's baby's first civ.

A more Sumerian design to me would be bonus faith from Monuments (priest-kings and all that)

Spammable ziggurats are more resonant and fun(!).

bonus food from farms with fresh water (early irrigation)

Ziggurats get a river adjacency bonus.

and a focus on small empires with big cities (like the Maya)

You can make big cities by spamming ziggurats!

Ziggurats are Sumerian, of course, but the design looks more Mesoamerican to me--and a unique improvement was the wrong choice for them. They should have been a Shrine replacement that generates culture. That leaves the War Cart, which may or may not have been actually used in combat but despite that is probably the most Sumerian thing about the civ. So to me the civ still looks 100% Epic of Gilgamesh.

I would have supported the shrine replacement. But the point is that Sumeria, as a base game civ, leaned hard into being as simple as possible. You spam ziggurats to build your cities. You spam warcarts to take others' cities. You make friends with everyone. It's a consequence of the developers deciding that Sumeria was important enough to include in the base game. where most, if not all of the civs, had much simpler designs and Sumeria happened to be a strong candidate for one of the simplest introductory designs. If Sumeria had been included as DLC or expansion content and not been shoehorned into tutorial duties, then we could be having the conversation of how complicated it could/should have been. But for a franchise that grows increasingly more complicated that felt compelled to make itself more accessible to new players, somebody had to take one for the team. And that was Sumeria.

Uh, what about Phoenicia and Persia looks particularly unique to their respective leaders? Phoenicia is all about trade and coastal colonization--just like historical Phoenicia. Cyrus' portrayal isn't even particularly historical, but the Pairidaeza and Satrapy bonuses are things I'd more associate with his successors like Darius and Xerxes.

Dido serves as a folk hero personification in the same way Gilgamesh and Kupe do. They aren't really mechanical choices so much as choosing legendary names as blank slates to represent civs without strong options for leaders. Hannibal would feel weird leading "Phoenicia." None of the historical Maori leaders of note actually led the Maori people as a whole. And none of the Sumerian kings are common knowledge.

Cyrus as representing the height of the Achaemenids is somewhat a personification of Iranian nationalism in the same vein as Tamar. Again somewhat of a blank slate to broadly represent Iranian heritage.

And yeah Alexander is a folk hero in Macedonia, but my point is that Macedonia, unlike Persia, or Georgia, or Phoenicia, is borderline irrelevant in a game that already has Greece as represented by the Delian and Pelopponesian Leagues. The Hellenic league is more of the same, and Macedonia's greatest accomplishment, the conquest of Persia, began to fall apart as soon as Alexander died. As far as representation goes, Greece and Persia cover much longer legacies that obviate the need for Macedon in VI. And yet Macedon was still included, solely for the sake of Alexander. If a figure as uniquely narcissistic as Alexander hadn't gained such a cult following in the west, Macedon would have been passed over altogether, relegated to "not needed" alongside the Seljuks, Seleucids, Hittites, Palmyrenes, Medians, Lydians, etc. etc. I still hold that Macedon is the only civ in the game that was included for the sake of its leader, not for its own sake.

Colombia comes close, but at least represents a culture and legacy common to several Spanish colonies that were not yet represented in the game, so even though Gran Colombia broke up shortly after Bolivar's death and he has an entire country named after him, Gran Colombia at least serves additional functions outside of being an excuse to put Bolivar in the game. And at this point I can't think of any other leaders which would be an Alexander outside of maybe Maria Teresa. Even other short-lived cults of personality like Zenobia or Timur would at least fill out unrepresented regions on the map.
 
I've shared these thoughts before but this time I'm using fancy color-coding. :crazyeye:

(Bear in mind that I've de-blobbed civs like the Celts and Polynesia based on inclusion of new, more specific civs. I also blobbed Venice into Italy, which is in high-demand.)

Already Included
Most Likely
Somewhat Likely

Unlikely
Very Unlikely

Previously-Included Civs
Assyria
Austria
Babylon
Byzantium
Britons (Boudica's Celts)
Denmark
Ethiopia
Gaul (Brennus' Celts)
Hawai'i (Kamehameha's Polynesia)
Hittites

Huns
Iroquois

Italy (Dandolo's Venice)
Maya
Morocco (or Berbers?)
Portugal
Shoshone
Siam
Sioux

Songhai

Popular Suggestions New to the Franchise
Apache/Navajo
Ashanti/Benin
Bulgaria/Romania
Burma

Cherokee/Creek
Gran Colombia
Goths
Ireland
Kilwa/Swahili/Oman
Kushans
Palmyra/Syria

Timurids/Gurkhani
Vietnam
Zimbabwe/Mutapa

Changed this to fit my expectations. I expect Portugal simply to balance out Spain/GC, even if I think it struggles to find design space. I expect at least a Byzantine alternate leader so that's just as good as a lock. And Vietnam is the only civ that I just don't see the devs passing up on. Yellow civs are what are most likely on the developers' short list. Orange civs are dark horses that might have snuck their way onto the shortlist, in most instances taking the place of one of the yellow civs. And red civs just seem to occupy too much similar design/representational space to civs already on the roster. I would also say that there is an implied handicap given to returning civs since they would almost certainly have come up for consideration at some point.
 
I would have supported the shrine replacement. But the point is that Sumeria, as a base game civ, leaned hard into being as simple as possible. You spam ziggurats to build your cities. You spam warcarts to take others' cities. You make friends with everyone. It's a consequence of the developers deciding that Sumeria was important enough to include in the base game. where most, if not all of the civs, had much simpler designs and Sumeria happened to be a strong candidate for one of the simplest introductory designs. If Sumeria had been included as DLC or expansion content and not been shoehorned into tutorial duties, then we could be having the conversation of how complicated it could/should have been. But for a franchise that grows increasingly more complicated that felt compelled to make itself more accessible to new players, somebody had to take one for the team. And that was Sumeria.
It makes sense, sumer is the baseplate: the civ to learn in, the civ to understand the game with, because it was, in essence, ‘the first civ’

was it poorly designed when it comes to sumer? perhaps, but not necessarily terribly so—in my mind, it’s not that it isn’t representative of sumer, it’s just not the best representative of sumer. There were better leader choices than Gilgamesh, but Gilga is definitely the best known, and he’s undoubtedly a big personality and at least we know he existed.
Cyrus as representing the height of the Achaemenids is somewhat a personification of Iranian nationalism in the same vein as Tamar. Again somewhat of a blank slate to broadly represent Iranian heritage

As one of my favorite historical figures, I’m a bit disappointed that Cyrus was portrayed the way he was. He shouldn’t be a scheming, devious guy, which feels like they designed him around the Massagatae myths about him, for the sake of building an in-game meta with him and Tomyris. He was a kind, benevolent leader, a powerful conquerer but a even better administrator. The Satrapy system was invented by him, and he freed the jewish people from enslavement in Babylon. He was noted for his religious and cultural acceptance and skill in incorporating new land and keeping it peaceful. He’s without a doubt the best leader to represent Achaemenid Persia in my mind, and alongside Khosrow II, the best to represent pre-islamic Persia as a whole.

Already Included
Most Likely
Somewhat Likely

Unlikely
Very Unlikely

Previously-Included Civs
Assyria
Austria
Babylon
Byzantium
Britons (Boudica's Celts)
Denmark
Ethiopia
Gaul (Brennus' Celts)
Hawai'i (Kamehameha's Polynesia)
Hittites

Huns
Iroquois

Italy (Dandolo's Venice)
Maya
Morocco (or Berbers?)
Portugal
Shoshone
Siam
Sioux

Songhai

Popular Suggestions New to the Franchise
Apache/Navajo
Ashanti/Benin
Bulgaria/Romania
Burma

Cherokee/Creek
Gran Colombia
Goths
Ireland
Kilwa/Swahili/Oman
Kushans
Palmyra/Syria

Timurids/Gurkhani
Vietnam
Zimbabwe/Mutapa

Changed this to fit my expectations. I expect Portugal simply to balance out Spain/GC, even if I think it struggles to find design space. I expect at least a Byzantine alternate leader so that's just as good as a lock. And Vietnam is the only civ that I just don't see the devs passing up on. Yellow civs are what are most likely on the developers' short list. Orange civs are dark horses that might have snuck their way onto the shortlist, in most instances taking the place of one of the yellow civs. And red civs just seem to occupy too much similar design/representational space to civs already on the roster. I would also say that there is an implied handicap given to returning civs since they would almost certainly have come up for consideration at some point.
also, i doubt the devs have even heard of the kushans. I don’t think they’re even a possibility at the present moment. Maybe if we get a well-done popular mod for them, but atm, we are not getting them
 
Top Bottom