[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Sometimes, facts like this makes me thinking that, Peter's LA - international trade routes will grant Russia some extra science/culture for every technology/civic the other civ has that Russia doesn't - should be a more general game mechanic, act as a major source of science income, equally important as campus (preferably in civ 7, who knows).

It's not like the scientific advancements are all made by people who stay in the campus for the entirety of their life, many technologies were evolved through communication. The technology of gunpowder and firearm is a perfect example of this situation, and all the "Gunpowder Empires" (Timurid is one of them!) were alongside the Silk Road.

Yes in the 2010 board game they use "trade" as a yield for research instead of science which that makes a little more sense in that game considering there's not as many science oriented buildings to build except the library and university which grant as much culture as trade. The better buildings to build for research in that game are the harbor and trading posts. It would be interesting if those buildings in the future could help along research.

I have a feeling that Kublai Khan might get that unused ability found in the files where he receives either a free eureka or inspiration after finishing a foreign trade route for the first time as a "Silk Road" ability.

 

[8housesofelixir]

he didn’t establish the predecessor of the house of wisdom. As far as we know, he outright founded it.

Saladin is more famous, but Harun al-Rashid is much more of a big personality in my book, and surely deserves more fame than he actually gets. Would also nicely clear up space in north africa at the cost of clogging up mesopotamia, but mesopotamia deserves to be clogged

Thanks for the correction, I think I messed up Harun al-Rashid and Abu al-Abbas Abdallah ibn Harun al-Rashid (Al-Ma'mun). Arabian is hard.

While Mesopotamia deserves to be clogged, I find it funny that Arabian Peninsula is still fairly empty, as the in-game "Arabian" capital is in Egypt.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Thanks for the correction, I think I messed up Harun al-Rashid and Abu al-Abbas Abdallah ibn Harun al-Rashid (Al-Ma'mun). Arabian is hard.

While Mesopotamia deserves to be clogged, I find it funny that Arabian Peninsula is still fairly empty, as the in-game "Arabian" capital is in Egypt.

Al-Ma’mun took the House of Wisdom and turned from a library into a university. Harun al-Rashid establishes it as a institution to begin with.

I don’t actually know if there are any noteworthy Arabian leaders who are allowed to be depicted who also led from Mecca, Medina or Jeddah, since if I recall correctly, muslims do not allow for the depiction of the Prophet nor Abu Bakr (im less sure on Abu Bakr, but i know the prophet is definitely not allowed to be depicted)

 

[8housesofelixir]

I have a feeling that Kublai Khan might get that unused ability found in the files where he receives either a free eureka or inspiration after finishing a foreign trade route for the first time as a "Silk Road" ability.

The current civ ability of China is for boosting the value of Eurekas and Inspirations (+10%). If Kublai can get free Eureka/Inspirations on top of that, research-wise China will be kind of broken.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

The current civ ability of China is for boosting the value of Eurekas and Inspirations (+10%). If Kublai can get free Eureka/Inspirations on top of that, research-wise China will be kind of broken.

as it rightfully should. It’s always struck me that china and india have never been scientific powerhouses in this game when so many scientific findings in the west were either discovered in the east first or were outright adopted from the east

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The current civ ability of China is for boosting the value of Eurekas and Inspirations (+10%). If Kublai can get free Eureka/Inspirations on top of that, research-wise China will be kind of broken.

That's if he does lead indeed lead China also, which I would like him too.
It would still synergize nicely with Mongolia's Ortoo ability anyway.

 

[8housesofelixir]

as it rightfully should. It’s always struck me that china and india have never been scientific powerhouses in this game when so many scientific findings in the west were either discovered in the east first or were outright adopted from the east

As a Chinese I would like to point out that many "Chinese scientific findings" were also adopted from India via trade routes etc., especially for math and astrology.

Naming the science bonus as the "dynastic cycle" is also a really weird word choice, since the actual dynastic cycle often resulted in the great loss of scientific knowledge when a dynasty was destroyed/overthrown. The Chinese phrase of "dynastic cycle" (朝代循環) in the Chinese context generally implies "vicissitude".
A small example: Giuseppe Castiglione mentioned that, when he brought an early Ming bronze vessel - less than 200 years ago - from Emperor's antique collections to palace artisans, the artisans cannot figure out how it was made.
That's also why I don't consider China as a scientific powerhouse - a science power spike for China between Classical and Renaissance Era is more close to reality (which also doesn't exist in the current game anyway).

Anyway, the in-game India really deserves a science bonus in the future.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'd hate to see Saladin lead Egypt, the Egypt civilization obviously represents Ancient Egypt and not Arabised Egypt.

I wish. I like Harun al-Rashid as a historical figure a lot and he’s a better fit for what they wanted out of Arabia anyway

if they want an Ayyubid next time, i’d like to suggest Shajar al-Durr as a faith, diplomacy and espionage leader alternative.

I still like to have hope that Saladin was specifically chosen for the territory covered by the Ayyubid Dynasty, which doesn't overlap with either Oman or Morocco/Numidia. Although I suppose an Abbasid Caliph still wouldn't have overlapping territory with a Maghreb civ. No matter how you slice it, the Arabosphere has been done pretty dirty in Civ VI.

Wouldn't it be neat if we got a DLC pack with Morocco/Numidia, Oman, and an Ummayad leader for Arabia? No game mode needed, just an "expansion" of Arabia to make up for a general lack of representation.

as it rightfully should. It’s always struck me that china and india have never been scientific powerhouses in this game when so many scientific findings in the west were either discovered in the east first or were outright adopted from the east

So should Germany, France, England, Greece, Rome, Egypt...but that would be pretty boring if every civ played to its historical strengths because many would be an amalgam of culture, science, religion, and warfare; lasting cultural empires tended to be good at everything.

Again, I like that VI has tried to focus less on what civs were good at, and instead reframe things as what they did exceptionally. China's lasting effect on the world is undoubtedly cultural, having effectively warped the cultures of neighboring civs like Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Tibet. And similarly India's most unique aspect is definitely a long history of ethnic and religious diversity. (Actually, I would say that the two of these are quite interchangeable between China and India yet wholly unique to them; it just happens that China is just a tad more of a modern power and deserves the cultural angle, while India has the stronger religious angle for several reasons). It's not to say that China nor India were not scientific; just that for creating a distinct playstyle that was guaranteed to stand out against the rest of the other civs, neither really benefited from a scientific element and had better things going for them.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

And similarly India's most unique aspect is definitely a long history of ethnic and religious diversity.

I mean, the world’s first and most advanced astronomers from ancient times? developers of algebra, the number 0 and the hindu-arabic numeral system

obviously the fact that india has led to the rise of 4 distinct religions, acted as a safe haven for 2 other ones which were persecuted in their native land, and hosts the world’s second largest population of yet another religion is very distinct, but i find it hard to argue that religious diversity is any sort of accomplishment rather than a result of historical context. It’s not like India tried to be a multireligious place, it just happened. However, for thousands of years Indian kingdoms were at the forefront of scientific developments, exporting them westward to Arabia (and by extension, Andalusia and then Christian Europe), as well as eastward, towards China, SE Asia, Japan and Korea.

So if a civ’s abilities aren’t a function of that nation’s accomplishments rather than a passive and latent feature of the civ, then India shouldn’t be a religious civ for the sake of having a number of religions in it.

 

[SMcM]

Regarding something I've seen people say before, I do think if Timur was in the game he would lead Timurids not 'Gurkani', because A) I would think they would go for the more recognisable civ name, and B) I doubt they would feel the need to merge the Timurid empire and Mughal empire under one civ.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Regarding something I've seen people say before, I do think if Timur was in the game he would lead Timurids not 'Gurkani', because A) I would think they would go for the more recognisable civ name, and B) I doubt they would feel the need to merge the Timurid empire and Mughal empire under one civ.

there were timurid kings who were also culture and science focused so going for timur as a war leader with the timurids as a science/trade civ would be good.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I mean, the world’s first and most advanced astronomers from ancient times? developers of algebra, the number 0 and the hindu-arabic numeral system

obviously the fact that india has led to the rise of 4 distinct religions, acted as a safe haven for 2 other ones which were persecuted in their native land, and hosts the world’s second largest population of yet another religion is very distinct, but i find it hard to argue that religious diversity is any sort of accomplishment rather than a result of historical context. It’s not like India tried to be a multireligious place, it just happened. However, for thousands of years Indian kingdoms were at the forefront of scientific developments, exporting them westward to Arabia (and by extension, Andalusia and then Christian Europe), as well as eastward, towards China, SE Asia, Japan and Korea.

So if a civ’s abilities aren’t a function of that nation’s accomplishments rather than a passive and latent feature of the civ, then India shouldn’t be a religious civ for the sake of having a number of religions in it.

Algebra goes back further than India. Egypt, Maya other civs had fairly sophisticated astronomy, and if we really want astronomy to be a basis for making a civ scientific, then what about England and Poland? Again, you're kind of missing the distinction. Civ VI hasn't really focused much on who did things first, but what each civ did better than any other civ (which, I do admit, science seems to be of lowest priority of consideration, since it seems to be a last resort to represent "leftover" civs like Scotland and Korea).

Again, it's not about perfect representation. It's about having a unique playstyle in a board game. The more I look at Arabia, the more disappointed I am that it is religious and scientific but not cultural. But I accept that, because it had madrasahs and its cultural effect was mostly due to religious totalitarianism, the characterization mostly works.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Civ VI hasn't really focused much on who did things first, but what each civ did better than any other civ (which, I do admit, science seems to be of lowest priority of consideration, since it seems to be a last resort to represent "leftover" civs like Scotland and Korea).

I would like to point out that although Korea is basically a Seowon civ, Scottish Enlightenment is an actual historical event that shifted the course of human history significantly. So I don't think a scientific Scotland is a last resort (while a scientific Korea probably is, or FXS just don't want all three East Asian civs to be cultural civs.)

I do agree with your point that each civ is "designed" to have a unique playstyle. (The problem might be we only have a limited amount of playstyles currently due to the limits of victory types, and we have a large pool of civs.)

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I would like to point out that although Korea is basically a Seowon civ, Scottish Enlightenment is an actual historical event that shifted the course of human history significantly. So I don't think a scientific Scotland is a last resort (while a scientific Korea probably is, or FXS just don't want all three East Asian civs to be cultural civs.)

Korea had precedent from past games for being a primary scientific civ though, rather warranted or not. It's not surprisingly that they decided to wait for a dedicated science civ when they decided to design Korea.

 

[notNamed]

I would like to point out that although Korea is basically a Seowon civ, Scottish Enlightenment is an actual historical event that shifted the course of human history significantly. So I don't think a scientific Scotland is a last resort (while a scientific Korea probably is, or FXS just don't want all three East Asian civs to be cultural civs.)

Well the bonuses can cover the entire span of the civilisation's existence. Korea was not historically a place known for its research, but modern (post-1987, or the Sixth Republic of) South Korea is a pretty well known tech giant.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean, the world’s first and most advanced astronomers from ancient times?

Eh, the Indian astronomers were at least contemporary with Egyptian and Babylonian astronomers.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Well the bonuses can cover the entire span of the civilisation's existence. Korea was not historically a place known for its research, but modern (post-1987, or the Sixth Republic of) South Korea is a pretty well known tech giant.

This argument can apply to lot of civs.

Modern Japan, USA, and Germany are all tech giants, far more "giant" than SK, so according to your argument they all should be scientific civs, rather than focusing on unique adjacency/appeal/production bonuses.

And I also don't think seowon has anything to do with modern Korea's tech advancements.

I think the problem here might be that, for a Korean civ you definitely want to have seowon, and seowon is naturally a replacement of campus or university.

However, while the in-game campus/university is closely tied to science, the IRL seowon, or other traditional East Asian educational institutions, were mostly for teaching Confucian classics and cultivating literati. It's more cultural-orientated rather than science-orientated, so link them to the in-game scientific campuses will certainly cause dislocation.

If in the future we can have a civ with a unique replacement of university which provide more culture output than science output, that will be more closed to reality (medieval Western universities were also famous for their "culture output" - I mean the Trivium syllabus), and also an interesting design choice.

 

[notNamed]

This argument can apply to lot of civs.

Modern Japan, USA, and Germany are all tech giants, far more "giant" than SK, so according to your argument they all should be scientific civs, rather than focusing on unique adjacency/appeal/production bonuses.

I didn't say it has to be used and heck, I'd certainly be down for other interpretations of Korea or its predecessor states. I'm just saying that the precedent for the whole Korea = science is most likely sourced that way.

And I also don't think seowon has anything to do with modern Korea's tech advancements.

I would say it kind of does. After all, modern Korea builds itself on complete and utter rejection of Joseon dynasty morals. South Korea itself (and maybe North Korea as well?) is who is pushing for recognition of Silhak scholars during the era (who were staunch opponents of the regime and Neo-Confucian ideals/scholarship), or pushing Sejong's "achievements" while ignoring the fact that his Hall of Worthies was the institution which: A) banned the further use of Hangul B) was very quickly massacred to the man due to typical court intrigues of the era.
So yeah, in my opinion, the modern state seeing its future in science does project that a bit on the way they present their history (or rather, the portions they focus on) to the outside world. At least a little bit.

 

[8housesofelixir]

South Korea itself (and maybe North Korea as well?) is who is pushing for recognition of Silhak scholars during the era (who were staunch opponents of the regime and Neo-Confucian ideals/scholarship)

I would also want to point out that the core idea of the Silhak scholars was also far from scientific principles - Japan and China has similar group of scholars, who were also more interested in practical technocratic knowledge and anti-Neo-Confucianism rather than science - and many of the traditional Korean tech inventions has nothing to do with these scholars - but let's just stop here.

Korea does has its scientific traditions, it just not really belong to the literati class - and seowon - as whole, and the those among the literati class who were interested in science were usually influenced by the imported western knowledge (for instance Hong Daeyong). Same can be applied to other two East Asian counties (for instance Xu Guangqi, and Rangaku school of Japan).

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I think the problem here might be that, for a Korean civ you definitely want to have seowon, and seowon is naturally a replacement of campus or university.

However, while the in-game campus/university is closely tied to science, the IRL seowon, or other traditional East Asian educational institutions, were mostly for teaching Confucian classics and cultivating literati. It's more cultural-orientated rather than science-orientated, so link them to the in-game scientific campuses will certainly cause dislocation.

If in the future we can have a civ with a unique replacement of university which provide more culture output than science output, that will be more closed to reality (medieval Western universities were also famous for their "culture output" - I mean the Trivium syllabus), and also an interesting design choice.

they should really explore fusion districts that replace multiple districts or combine them. Arabia’s Madrasa, Korea’s Seowon, Maya’s Observatory, Germany’s Hansa, Greece’s Acropolis would definitely fit in this category