I mean I wouldn't call Poland, a slavic formerly Eastern Bloc country, 'Western Europe' really. It's more religious presumably for similar reasons to other countries further east like Romania. But yes in general Western Europe isn't that religious. Italy is more religious than most of Western Europe too, probably unsurprising given The Vatican's location.
I didn't call it Western Europe. I called it Western Christian Europe, e.g., the parts of Europe that historically practiced Western Christianity--Roman Catholicism or Protestantism--as opposed to Orthodoxy.
Most of Eastern Europe is more religious because it's Orthodox, and Orthodoxy never went through the religious fragmentation that ensued in the wake of the Protestant Reformation (Romania did, or Transylvania rather, but chiefly among its German-speaking population, and like Poland it ultimately turned back to its traditional church). The Protestant Reformation forced Western Europe to eventually either accept eternal repetition of the religious wars like the Thirty Years' War, the English Civil War, and the French Wars of Religion or else accept a degree of toleration, and toleration required compartmentalization of religion--which ultimately led to the decline of religion as privately held non-belief became a non-suicidal possibility, particularly after the Enlightenment.
Speaking of Orthodoxy and more on topic, I'd love to see another Orthodox civ added if we get a second pass of DLC.
Most of Eastern Europe is more religious because it's Orthodox, and Orthodoxy never went through the religious fragmentation that ensued in the wake of the Protestant Reformation (Romania did, or Transylvania rather, but chiefly among its German-speaking population, and like Poland it ultimately turned back to its traditional church). The Protestant Reformation forced Western Europe to eventually either accept eternal repetition of the religious wars like the Thirty Years' War, the English Civil War, and the French Wars of Religion or else accept a degree of toleration, and toleration required compartmentalization of religion--which ultimately led to the decline of religion as privately held non-belief became a non-suicidal possibility, particularly after the Enlightenment.
Speaking of Orthodoxy and more on topic, I'd love to see another Orthodox civ added if we get a second pass of DLC.
I'm not convinced this is the reason entirely, I don't think the religiousness of Poland and orthodox eastern countries is a coincidence- especially given their recent joined history under Soviet domination (which tried to stamp out religion, and now we've seen resurgence).
For a future Polish leader in Civ games, Stephen Báthory I would say is another good choice.
I wouldn't propose that it's the sole reason, but since Western secularism is incontrovertibly the result of the Protestant Reformation (and I say that as a very religious Protestant) it is logical to conclude that the absence of such a reformation in the east is at least partly why Orthodox countries are generally more religious than most Catholic or Protestant countries. Religion was able to remain in the public sphere where it was not in the West. Also history shows that unless it's particularly thorough persecution has a tendency to increase religious fervor and spread it more broadly; I suspect that the Soviet Union's anti-religious agenda (and that of other Eastern European Communist regimes) did more to preserve Orthodoxy (and Polish Catholicism) than harm it. If I'm not mistaken, Catholicism was a major rallying point of anti-Soviet sentiment in Poland.
I agree, Stephen Báthory would be another good choice for Poland.
I'm not convinced this is the reason entirely, I don't think the religiousness of Poland and orthodox eastern countries is a coincidence- especially given their recent joined history under Soviet domination (which tried to stamp out religion, and now we've seen resurgence).
There's no real pattern between the denomination of religion, whether or not the country was a part of the Eastern Bloc, and how they are today, really. Russia, Belarus and Bulgaria were communist and orthodox. Serbia was as well and is now the same "color" as Austria. Ukraine was orthodox, communist and is now just as religious as the birthplace of Protestantism, Germany. Greece wasn't even communist and they are fairly devout believers compared to most of Europe, Romanians were both communist and orthodox and they are still fairly religious.
Spoiler:
It's all really on a case-by-case basis for which states emerged into the current day as more religious or irreligious. Attributing it all to orthodoxy or communism doesn't really stand to scrutiny lest you want to talk about the "Glorious Anglo-Protestant Culture" which used to be fairly popular in the USA and was downright magical in its supposed effects.
I suspect that the Soviet Union's anti-religious agenda (and that of other Eastern European Communist regimes) did more to preserve Orthodoxy (and Polish Catholicism) than harm it. If I'm not mistaken, Catholicism was a major rallying point of anti-Soviet sentiment in Poland.
This is essentially the point I was trying to make- I think that reaction to Soviet oppression is a part of the reason why Poland and East Orthodox former communist states share higher rates of religious observance.
This is essentially the point I was trying to make- I think that reaction to Soviet oppression is a part of the reason why Poland and East Orthodox former communist states share higher rates of religious observance.
On the other hand, interestingly, Chinese rural regions and now-declined former industrial centers under the Communist rule can be quite religious, since churches and religious beliefs can be a life-saving straw after getting dumped by a paternalist state.
I would say the reality of religion-culture-identity can be very complicated which completely exceeds the scope of a virtual boardgame like this. Unless introduce a new mechanic for "level of religiousness" or something.
Haiti would certainly be a solid but controversial choice (though let's be honest all colonial civs are controversial here). Toussaint Louverture is a recognizable leader but unique unit and unique infrastructure might be harder to choose. Cultivateurs were important rural guerillas during the Haitian Revolution so they are a possibility for unit but I'm not sure on infrastructure.
Maybe something like an hounfour/ounfò as a shrine replacement would work well- Vodou practices could be tied to bonuses from harvesting, multiple religions or loyalty. I'd love to see a representation of Ewe-Fon culture, and especially Voodoo without the dolls- at least in Cuba I would associate the practice with Bantu people. I would imagine Haiti along the lines we have of the Mapuche in terms of lowering loyalty pressure considering how much the Haitian revolution influenced tensions in the rest of Latin America.
Maybe something like an hounfour/ounfò as a shrine replacement would work well- Vodou practices could be tied to bonuses from harvesting, multiple religions or loyalty. I'd love to see a representation of Ewe-Fon culture, and especially Voodoo without the dolls- at least in Cuba I would associate the practice with Bantu people. I would imagine Haiti along the lines we have of the Mapuche in terms of lowering loyalty pressure considering how much the Haitian revolution influenced tensions in the rest of Latin America.
I feel like that a unique infrastructure centered around Voodoo would fit better with a Dahomey civ, or something African rather than something Caribbean personally.
I feel like that a unique infrastructure centered around Voodoo would fit better with a Dahomey civ, or something African rather than something Caribbean personally.
A Dahomey civ would be really cool, West Africa in general could really use some more representation. I suppose Mali is technically West Africa, but I see that as more part of the Sahel region mostly. Nigeria and the states to it's west have nothing so far in this series.
I feel like that a unique infrastructure centered around Voodoo would fit better with a Dahomey civ, or something African rather than something Caribbean personally.
It would fit in either as far as I'm concerned. While geographically Haiti isn't African, within a broader civ context it would be the best fit for something representing African diaspora cultures and has one of the best stories of the Caribbean nations. I'd be interested in seeing many more African civs but I don't think we are going to get so many looking at our current situation. In the situation we got both Haiti and Dahomey, I'm sure there is something Haiti can use to distinguish itself.
A Dahomey civ would be really cool, West Africa in general could really use some more representation. I suppose Mali is technically West Africa, but I see that as more part of the Sahel region mostly. Nigeria and the states to it's west have nothing so far in this series.
Yes. If they decide to go to Sub-Saharan African again I'd like to see a civ from the coast of West Africa.
They would also have access to the Ahosi, an all female unique unit.
I don't think the Sisters necessarily have to be two leaders. It would be interesting to see them as one leader but both showing. Perhaps one talks for more positive messages, the other for more negative. There's a fair bit of dead-space in a lot of the various Leader Screens so I don't think they lack the space to do it, especially if they do them back-to-back, at an angled shoulder-to-shoulder or some other sort of close pose.
If Haiti did make it in it'd be almost a sure bet they'd have some reference to Vodou since it's so tied to Haiti in popular culture, even though Louverture and subsequent leaders didn't support the religion and it didn't get official recognition till the latter half of the 20th century.
Haiti would be very cool. Yes, it's yet another post-colonial civ, but it's francophone, which we only have half of so far for post-colonial civs, and it has strong African roots, which is quite novel and niche. I would be very pleased to see it.
The main problem with Haiti is that virtually all the leaders have been bad people. The nation was born during France's reign of terror and seems to have remained in that state for 200 years. That first general who initiated the revolution, but died in French captivity might be the least controversial choice.
Haiti would be very cool. Yes, it's yet another post-colonial civ, but it's francophone, which we only have half of so far for post-colonial civs, and it has strong African roots, which is quite novel and niche. I would be very pleased to see it.
The main problem with Haiti is that virtually all the leaders have been bad people. The nation was born during France's reign of terror and seems to have remained in that state for 200 years. That first general who initiated the revolution, but died in French captivity might be the least controversial choice.
Haiti would be very cool. Yes, it's yet another post-colonial civ, but it's francophone, which we only have half of so far for post-colonial civs, and it has strong African roots, which is quite novel and niche. I would be very pleased to see it.
The main problem with Haiti is that virtually all the leaders have been bad people. The nation was born during France's reign of terror and seems to have remained in that state for 200 years. That first general who initiated the revolution, but died in French captivity might be the least controversial choice.
King Henri Christopher or Alexandre Pétion would likely not be chosen. Jean-Jacques Dessalines is highly regarded in Haiti and had a stronger legacy there than Louverture but his methods are controversial. Toussaint Louverture may have died in a French prison but he was 60 at the time and had lived quite a long life at the time plus before his arrest in 1802 he had significant power and influence in Haiti such that Haitian historians refer to the years he was in power as the Louverturian State. He's well regarded outside of Haiti but Louverture's labor policies made him pretty unpopular within the island at the time and his legacy is complex for the country, especially because his authoritarian tendencies are a common thread in Haitian politics post-independence I'd argue more than the legacy of the Terror. Haiti is certainly fascinating for prefiguring both widespread independence in the Americas and the trend of powerful militaristic caudillos in many of those post-colonial states.
Long digression aside, I agree that Toussaint Louverture would be the best candidate for Haitian leader in a civ game
King Henri Christopher or Alexandre Pétion would likely not be chosen. Jean-Jacques Dessalines is highly regarded in Haiti and had a stronger legacy there than Louverture but his methods are controversial. Toussaint Louverture may have died in a French prison but he was 60 at the time and had lived quite a long life at the time plus before his arrest in 1802 he had significant power and influence in Haiti such that Haitian historians refer to the years he was in power as the Louverturian State. He's well regarded outside of Haiti but Louverture's labor policies made him pretty unpopular within the island at the time and his legacy is complex for the country, especially because his authoritarian tendencies are a common thread in Haitian politics post-independence I'd argue more than the legacy of the Terror. Haiti is certainly fascinating for prefiguring both widespread independence in the Americas and the trend of powerful militaristic caudillos in many of those post-colonial states.
Long digression aside, I agree that Toussaint Louverture would be the best candidate for Haitian leader in a civ game
Personally I would like to see their unique economic policies - forced labor and monopolized trading for high gold output but loyalty tanked, versus distribute all the lands to peasants, state revenue tanked but loyalty and military power increased - turned into Dark Age cards or something similar (although the latter also contributed to the despotism that would trouble Haiti in the following centuries).
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