[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Starina]

I will reiterate here my support for Ivan Grozhnyi as an Alternate Leader for Russia: potential military, religious, cultural, and scientific Uniques: he built St Basil's unique cathedral, established the first printing plant in Moscow, formed the first units of Streltsi musket/axe pike and shot, and personally wrote dozens of religious and political documents. Not too terrible at all.

I support. I was hoping for Ivan even before the first glance at Russia in Civ 6, but alas... Well, replaces the goofy ability of Peter I.

A unique unit suggests itself: Streltsy
Perhaps they can replace Musketman and have the same +10 vs cavalry as Pike and Shot. Also available already in the Medieval
In addition to streltsy, a unique ability can also be military, it can be to annex city-states or fallen cities by loyalty (hello Dramatic ages !)

Just imagine a military-religious-cultural nation!

 

[Zaarin]

The sources I've seen have called what he's wearing in the picture a Raven's Tail robe and I'm not sure if it's a type of Chilkat blanket or not?

Yes, that's a Chilkat blanket.

I’m annoyed that the PNW still hasn’t gotten a native american civ after all this time. Sure, the PNW tribes aren’t as well known. Sure, there are more well known options elsewhere, but the PNW was home to the most cultural diversity north of Mesoamerica. The Chinook and Coast Salish (and maybe the Haida as well?) come in-built with good leader choices as well.

I’d hope that the Navajo are the native american civ in the game, but chances are it’s the haudenosausee (don’t think i spelled that right lol)

TBH, I'll be thrilled with the Haudenosaunee so long as we get a Brant--Joseph or Molly, don't care which. As I've mentioned before, I think Brant would tick a lot of the boxes for what draws people to Tecumseh. He's only less well known because for a long time Americans hated his guts (somehow it was easier to forgive Tecumseh for siding with the British? ).

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Yes, that's a Chilkat blanket.


TBH, I'll be thrilled with the Haudenosaunee so long as we get a Brant--Joseph or Molly, don't care which. As I've mentioned before, I think Brant would tick a lot of the boxes for what draws people to Tecumseh. He's only less well known because for a long time Americans hated his guts (somehow it was easier to forgive Tecumseh for siding with the British? ).

The Brants are very interesting. I just perused Joseph's wiki article and discovered he lived in Herkimer County, NY at the same time as my ancestors.

 

[AaronTBD]

Would anyone want a Pohnpei/Nan Madol civ? I think it could be very unique like maybe it could be like Venice in civ 5 in which only one city (Nan Madol) can be made. It could also have a ability to build districts on shallow water, but can only be built on land adjacent to shallow water and vice versa!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Would anyone want a Pohnpei/Nan Madol civ? I think it could be very unique like maybe it could be like Venice in civ 5 in which only one city (Nan Madol) can be made. It could also have a ability to build districts on shallow water, but can only be built on land adjacent to shallow water and vice versa!

I wouldn't be a fan personally with so many restrictions (one city, has to be coastal). Plus it's fine as a city-state already in the game.
I also don't expect it to get in because there is an achievement attached to it.

 

[AaronTBD]

I wouldn't be a fan personally with so many restrictions (one city, has to be coastal). Plus it's fine as a city-state already in the game.
I also don't expect it to get in because there is an achievement attached to it.

Understandable, but I would still like to see one more civ in Oceania. It's the 'continent' no one talks about and is has the least amount of civs.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Understandable, but I would still like to see one more civ in Oceania. It's the 'continent' no one talks about and is has the least amount of civs.

I'd be surprised if we got anything more from Oceania other than Australia and the Maori, especially since none appeared for the first time until Civ 5. If we did I'd expect it to be another Polynesian culture such as Hawaii or Tonga, but I don't know how they would differentiate it from the Maori.

That being said I was surprised with Gaul, Phoenicia over Carthage, and Tamar of Georgia getting in so there you go.

 

[AaronTBD]

That being said I was surprised with Gaul, Phoenicia over Carthage, and Tamar of Georgia getting in so there you go.

At least there's some hope I guess

 

[LoneRebel]

Oh sorry but I did watch news over the sharp decline of nation in contrast to Vietnam (its main rivals in the region)

That's strange, who exactly thinks that Thailand is a "dying nation"? Afaik (from a fellow Southeast Asian) it's doing pretty well economically, constant coups and authoritarian rule notwithstanding. And aren't Thailand's main rivals historically Burma and Khmer, not Vietnam? Siam only came into conflict with Vietnam once Khmer had declined and the two ascendant powers started fighting over who would get to vassalize them.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Would anyone want a Pohnpei/Nan Madol civ? I think it could be very unique like maybe it could be like Venice in civ 5 in which only one city (Nan Madol) can be made. It could also have a ability to build districts on shallow water, but can only be built on land adjacent to shallow water and vice versa!

given Tonga and Hawaii would be difficult since they were shot in the foot by Maori being a Polynesian blob in all but name, a Micronesian/Pohnpei civ wouldn’t be bad. Would be interesting if they could built cities on reefs as an ability (and are guaranteed to start on one)

 

[PhoenicianGold]

given Tonga and Hawaii would be difficult since they were shot in the foot by Maori being a Polynesian blob in all but name, a Micronesian/Pohnpei civ wouldn’t be bad. Would be interesting if they could built cities on reefs as an ability (and are guaranteed to start on one)

I think it is kind of unfair to call the Maori a Polynesian blob, unless you are implying (perhaps correctly) that all Polynesian civs are fairly similar and difficult to distinguish from each other. The Toa, the Pa, the Marae, are all specifically Maori features that don't have very clear or strong equivalents in other major Polynesian cultures, making the design far less blobby than Rapa Nui heads and Maori warriors under Kamehameha.

The only blobby things about the Maori are Mana and Kupe's Voyage. KV definitely isn't strongly resonant as a Maori thing, but if Kupe was the best leader option for the Maori to even happen, then it's a reasonable concession. And Mana is a generally Polynesian belief, so its' technically not wrong to include for the Maori. While I think it is fair to say that Mana isn't really in line with Maori history either, I also don't think Mana encompasses other Polynesian cultures so thoroughly that it prevents, say, Tonga or Hawai'i from having an equally distinct CA.

So really the "blobbiness" to me amounts to Kupe's Voyage, but even that isn't a completely fair comparison because neither Tonga nor Hawai'i really deserve to start in the middle of the ocean either. Or they are equally deserving. The design decision to make the Maori like this, in theory, didn't take anything away from any other Polynesian civs, other than making them functionally serve as a Pacific ocean generalist that discourages any other civs in the area. That doesn't really make them blobby to my mind, so much as having a sprawling design space. So I guess the distinction is semantic.

That said, I would wholly welcome civs that repeat gimmicks from previous civs. If we got a second Polynesian civ with a similar Kupe ability, but with a drastically different playstyle, I think that would make the game design feel a lot more balanced. Like say a Hawaiian civ that only wants to settle small islands, be pacifist, trade, and generate a lot of tourism. We could get some solid alt-civs out of this (Siam-Khmer, Portugal-Spain, Kiev-Russia, Huns-Scythia, Timurids-Persia, Argentina-GC, etc. etc.)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think it is kind of unfair to call the Maori a Polynesian blob, unless you are implying (perhaps correctly) that all Polynesian civs are fairly similar and difficult to distinguish from each other. The Toa, the Pa, the Marae, are all specifically Maori features that don't have very clear or strong equivalents in other major Polynesian cultures, making the design far less blobby than Rapa Nui heads and Maori warriors under Kamehameha.

The only blobby things about the Maori are Mana and Kupe's Voyage. KV definitely isn't strongly resonant as a Maori thing, but if Kupe was the best leader option for the Maori to even happen, then it's a reasonable concession. And Mana is a generally Polynesian belief, so its' technically not wrong to include for the Maori. While I think it is fair to say that Mana isn't really in line with Maori history either, I also don't think Mana encompasses other Polynesian cultures so thoroughly that it prevents, say, Tonga or Hawai'i from having an equally distinct CA.

So really the "blobbiness" to me amounts to Kupe's Voyage, but even that isn't a completely fair comparison because neither Tonga nor Hawai'i really deserve to start in the middle of the ocean either. Or they are equally deserving. The design decision to make the Maori like this, in theory, didn't take anything away from any other Polynesian civs, other than making them functionally serve as a Pacific ocean generalist that discourages any other civs in the area. That doesn't really make them blobby to my mind, so much as having a sprawling design space. So I guess the distinction is semantic.

That said, I would wholly welcome civs that repeat gimmicks from previous civs. If we got a second Polynesian civ with a similar Kupe ability, but with a drastically different playstyle, I think that would make the game design feel a lot more balanced. Like say a Hawaiian civ that only wants to settle small islands, be pacifist, trade, and generate a lot of tourism. We could get some solid alt-civs out of this (Siam-Khmer, Portugal-Spain, Kiev-Russia, Huns-Scythia, Timurids-Persia, Argentina-GC, etc. etc.)

What people mean is that the Kupe parts of the Maori are less representative of the Maori people and more representative of virtually every other Polynesian culture.

 

[8housesofelixir]

1. What made Tsar Peter took Siberian politics seriously? Was it because Qing China (Under Emperor Kang Xi precisely) also 'extorted' Siberia as well without any regards to Russian presence there and there were wars between Qing banner army VS Newly Reformed Imperial Russian Army? this also made it to Jin Yong (金庸, Real name Louis Cha (查良鏞)) Wuxia novel 'The Deer and the Cauldon (鹿鼎記) ' featuring Wei Xiaobao (韋小寶). and in that novel. Wei Xiabao did have a mission in Russia and eventually mated a Russian princess (Sofiya in particular, later in the novel Weikun is a catalyst leading to Pyotr Velikui's downfall). Did this ever happen?? (or even if Wei himself can speak Russian?). in one version Sofia is blonde, on the other is black hair, and in one version starred by Chinese cast posing as white.

Please search "Siege of Albazin"/"Treaty of Nerchinsk", and please do not confuse fiction with history even if the fiction uses a historical backdrop. Wei Xiaobao is as genuine as Jay Gatsby or Edmond Dantès.

 

[Zaarin]

What people mean is that the Kupe parts of the Maori are less representative of the Maori people and more representative of virtually every other Polynesian culture.

Kupe was a poor choice, but I have to admit he was a fun one. That being said, I would have preferred either a more historic choice for the Maori or else a more "typically" Polynesian civ.

Wei Xiaobao is as genuine as Jay Gatsby

Well, Jay Gatsby is more genuine than Nick Carraway.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I think it is kind of unfair to call the Maori a Polynesian blob, unless you are implying (perhaps correctly) that all Polynesian civs are fairly similar and difficult to distinguish from each other. The Toa, the Pa, the Marae, are all specifically Maori features that don't have very clear or strong equivalents in other major Polynesian cultures, making the design far less blobby than Rapa Nui heads and Maori warriors under Kamehameha.

Well I believe the Marae is used throughout other Polynesian cultures as well, though I think they go by different names where Marae is the term used by the Maori. It's probably the same as using the name Tlatchli for the Aztecs, considering the Mesoamerica ballgames were played by others, and the Grand Bazaar for the Ottomans. There are bazaars all over the Muslim world but the Grand Bazaar is unique to the Ottomans.
Nevertheless I agree that it's not as blobby as Civ 5.

That said, I would wholly welcome civs that repeat gimmicks from previous civs. If we got a second Polynesian civ with a similar Kupe ability, but with a drastically different playstyle, I think that would make the game design feel a lot more balanced. Like say a Hawaiian civ that only wants to settle small islands, be pacifist, trade, and generate a lot of tourism. We could get some solid alt-civs out of this (Siam-Khmer, Portugal-Spain, Kiev-Russia, Huns-Scythia, Timurids-Persia, Argentina-GC, etc. etc.)

You forgot the obvious Austria-Hungary.
Speaking of "clone" civs I thought of something that would make Portugal stand out even more. England is all about settling on other continents while Spain is about conquering cities and trading on other continents.
What if Portugal doesn't care to necessarily settle cities on other continents, but just build their feitorias. If they end up being similar to the Vampire Castle they could just spam them on other continents and bring in yields without needing to settle.
At least in my mind that's how they would get around the whole loyalty problem they might face while still staying true to being a global empire, while being unique.

Kupe was a poor choice, but I have to admit he was a fun one. That being said, I would have preferred either a more historic choice for the Maori or else a more "typically" Polynesian civ.

I wanted a typical Polynesian civ so I think in that regard them giving the ability to Kupe was a smart choice as the Maori definitely weren't my first choice. I was pleasantly surprised considering I was thinking they would be more warmongering than they are presented.

 

[Zaarin]

I wanted a typical Polynesian civ so I think in that regard them giving the ability to Kupe was a smart choice as the Maori definitely weren't my first choice. I was pleasantly surprised considering I was thinking they would be more warmongering than they are presented.

From a design perspective I love the Maori, but yeah, for a more "typical" Polynesian civ something else would have worked better. I grant Kupe's haka moves and wild gestures make him very memorable, though.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

And aren't Thailand's main rivals historically Burma and Khmer, not Vietnam?

I largely agree with you. But to answer:

Thailand's main rival is probably itself - the military has been mostly concerned with political unrest in Bangkok, forced disappearances of activists, and the ongoing conflict in the south - it's an old Thai student saying that the military is most skilled at shooting at Thais.

But that's a cheeky (but accurate) response. Who the "main rival" was depends on time.

Siam originated as a conflict/contest between a number of different city-states, until Ayutthaya won out. So pre-1500s, the answer is still "itself".

20th century royalist histories and more recent films held Burma up to be the quintessential enemy, and Laos and Cambodia (and Lanna) were tributary states that flipped back and forth between vassalage, independence, and dependence upon a different center - sometimes all three at once. There were a few direct wars with these (Anouvong's push from Laos, and Chiang Mai was a part of Burma 16th-18th C). Vietnam was a player in this contest, but distant - the two powers did skirmish at times over Cambodia, but it was more of a diplomatic conflict and less of a direct one.

Were you to ask a Thai in 1930 who the real enemy was, they might say "the French" - the colonial powers fought hard to drop Siam into debt (Britain) or simply to force it to yield (albeit flimsy) claims to territory (France).

Then, as Thailand became in essence a client state of the USA during the Cold War, "Communists" became the threat identified by the Thai military, especially Vietnamese. This in turn caused a great deal of paranoia and some terrifying scenes of Thais killing Thais (we are just past the anniversary of one - 6 October 1976).

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I think it is kind of unfair to call the Maori a Polynesian blob, unless you are implying (perhaps correctly) that all Polynesian civs are fairly similar and difficult to distinguish from each other. The Toa, the Pa, the Marae, are all specifically Maori features that don't have very clear or strong equivalents in other major Polynesian cultures, making the design far less blobby than Rapa Nui heads and Maori warriors under Kamehameha.

Except Kupe’s inclusion and the choices made in design make the Maori just feel like a generic Polynesian civ and not *like* the Maori. Where’s Honga Hika? Where’s the Musket Wars ability (during war they can upgrade units for free/75% off?) The seafaring aspect makes Maori resemble Tonga or Hawaii far more than the Maori, since the Maori weren’t nearly as focused on seafaring as the other two options.

What people mean is that the Kupe parts of the Maori are less representative of the Maori people and more representative of virtually every other Polynesian culture.

this

There are bazaars all over the Muslim world but the Grand Bazaar is unique to the Ottomans.

the mod Historicity 2 changes bazaar to bedesden, which is grantedly more unique to ottomans

From a design perspective I love the Maori, but yeah, for a more "typical" Polynesian civ something else would have worked better. I grant Kupe's haka moves and wild gestures make him very memorable, though.

agree. Maori’s design is fun, it’s just not Maori. And it kills the chances of other polynesian civ’s, hence why a Nan Madol/Micronesian civ would be something I’d love to see.

 

[bbbt]

Just out of curiosity, as I'm only passingly familiar with Russian history, who would you recommend for an east-facing Russian leader? Obviously not Peter or Catherine.

I wouldn't say 'East Facing', but Alexander Nevsky is famous for his dealings with (and paying tribute to) the Mongols.

Though combining Kievan Rus with Russia as one civ has it's own issues.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I wouldn't say 'East Facing', but Alexander Nevsky is famous for his dealings with (and paying tribute to) the Mongols.

Though combining Kievan Rus with Russia as one civ has it's own issues.

Aleksandr Nevskii was more Novgorod-centered than Kievian, although the two were related - but Novgorod itself is another possible "Alternative Russia" as a Merchant/Trade related Civ that definitely had major interests in eastern European Russia and the Siberian fringes long before Muscovy was interested.

Another possibility is Dmitrii Ivanovich Donskoy, the winner at Kulikovo Field that urned back the Tatar/Mongol Successors and made Muscovy essentially an independent state. He also served as Prince of Moscow and Grand Prince of Vladimir. In addition to having the military chops, he is considered a Saint in the Orthodox church and did a lot of building of new towns (fortress towns to cover the borders) to the east and south of Moscow - virtually doubling the size of the Muscovite territories before he died. That gives him potential military, religious, expansionist, and 'eastern' orientations from which to derive his Uniques.