[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[TahamiTsunami]

please don't assume that we here at Firaxis think that this is an accurate or desirable representation of history, or a ranking of the civs that deserve inclusion (or do not). One simply cannot rank history in that way

So True!

Even though it's not how Katlian is depicted, I'd want a Tlingit chief to have a Chilkat blanket and a big beard--in part because it's not how people are used to thinking of Native Americans.

As cool and iconic as that Raven hat is, Katlian did have a bit more in his closet including what looks like the cedar potlatch hats you mentioned! The sources I've seen have called what he's wearing in the picture a Raven's Tail robe and I'm not sure if it's a type of Chilkat blanket or not? Regardless if it is or isn't, given Katlian's heritage and status, he'd almost certainly have some Chilkat blankets so it would be a relatively safe bet to have him wear one anyway. Another worthy Tlingit leader named Chief Shotridge was reported to have at least over a hundred Chilkat blankets if the sources are correct! I'm not sure how old Katlian was when he died but Shotridge was fairly old (with an additional bullet wound in his cheek) so you could have him or an older Katlian for a solid beard!

Catherine the Great as a bonus leader for Russia and Katlian of the Tlingit double pack when? (Technically Alexander I was tzar at the time, but... )

I know she's similar to Peter, but I'd actually kinda possibly definitely want that pack! Her or Ivan the Terrible for sure (both in a future installment perhaps).

 

[sukritact]

As cool as Siam* or Burma would be, I honestly think North America has a more pressing need for indigenous civs. There's basically only the Cree, and the Aztecs if you get really pedantic. I want the Iroquois, or the Lakota, or the Shoshone, or the Haida, or the Chinook, etc.

Failing that I think the Gulf of Guinea could do with some filling out: so many potential civs there...

* Besides, I've already made 3 leaders for them, and 2 of them are voiced and animated!

 

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

Not so obvious: Peter established the first Governorship in Siberia in 1708, the first official Russian government presence in Siberia, or "the East".

The problem is that Russia's move to the East, into Siberia took place largely in the 16th and 17th centuries under a bunch of Czarist mediocrities who were mostly concerned with more domestic problems like the Time of Troubles and the Old Believers religious schism. The physical 'conquest' of Siberia was actually undertaken mostly by private means: the Stroganov family, Yermak and his adventurers, and cossacks. Neither the government nor any Czar had much to do with it. Peter's move in 1708 was simply acknowledging moves that had already taken place long before.

IF there was a Czar that started Russian presence in the east it might be Ivan IV Groznyi (the "Mighty" or "Terrifying", not, strictly speaking, "Terrible") who conquered Novgorod, and therefore also 'picked up' all the Novgorodian territories to the east to the Ural Mountains. Mind you, that territory was a little like picking up French Canada - mostly filled with natives and fur trappers, with very little "on the ground" presence from Novgorod, or Moscow, until much later.

1. What made Tsar Peter took Siberian politics seriously? Was it because Qing China (Under Emperor Kang Xi precisely) also 'extorted' Siberia as well without any regards to Russian presence there and there were wars between Qing banner army VS Newly Reformed Imperial Russian Army? this also made it to Jin Yong (金庸, Real name Louis Cha (查良鏞)) Wuxia novel 'The Deer and the Cauldon (鹿鼎記) ' featuring Wei Xiaobao (韋小寶). and in that novel. Wei Xiabao did have a mission in Russia and eventually mated a Russian princess (Sofiya in particular, later in the novel Weikun is a catalyst leading to Pyotr Velikui's downfall). Did this ever happen?? (or even if Wei himself can speak Russian?). in one version Sofia is blonde, on the other is black hair, and in one version starred by Chinese cast posing as white.

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=311443419831031

Who do you think is a better leader? Peter I or Kang Xi?
2. And what 'Groznui' acutally means? (too bad I don't have Russian Cyrillic keyboard installed because I don't know the correct keyboard layout mew!) why in Anglophonic world Ivan Groznui is translated 'Ivan the Terrible' while you prefer to call him with conqueror honorific 'Ivan the Mighty' instead

 

[sukritact]

Why in Anglophonic world Ivan Groznui is translated 'Ivan the Terrible' while you prefer to call him with conqueror honorific 'Ivan the Mighty' instead

Because it's "terrible" as in "inspiring terror", not terrible as in "awful". But then the English language shifted without the epithet shifting alongside it.

 

[Starina]

Because it's "terrible" as in "inspiring terror", not terrible as in "awful". But then the English language shifted without the epithet shifting alongside it.

Yes, in Russian, "Грозный" (en. Terrible) - instilling fear, harsh, strict, threatening danger, death.
The words "грозный" (en. Terrible, adjective) and "гроза" (en. Thunderstorm, noun) are very similar both in writing and in meaning. I don't know for sure, but I think that the origin of the words is the same

Just look at his look. Ivan Vasilievich looks at you with meaning

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

Because it's "terrible" as in "inspiring terror", not terrible as in "awful". But then the English language shifted without the epithet shifting alongside it.

Even in the early 20th century, we have "I am Oz, the great and terrible!"

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

Yes, in Russian, "Грозный" (en. Terrible) - instilling fear, harsh, strict, threatening danger, death.
The words "грозный" (en. Terrible, adjective) and "гроза" (en. Thunderstorm, noun) are very similar both in writing and in meaning. I don't know for sure, but I think that the origin of the words is the same

Just look at his look. Ivan Vasilievich looks at you with meaning
View attachment 571335

I will reiterate here my support for Ivan Grozhnyi as an Alternate Leader for Russia: potential military, religious, cultural, and scientific Uniques: he built St Basil's unique cathedral, established the first printing plant in Moscow, formed the first units of Streltsi musket/axe pike and shot, and personally wrote dozens of religious and political documents. Not too terrible at all.

@sukritact and others nailed it. The Russian word has the root meaning of 'terrifying' and also 'mighty' because (and this says something about Russian attitudes towards power) anything with great power is also terrifying - benign rulers need not apply.
"Groza", or Thunder(storm) was also the codename for a proposed Soviet pre-emptory offensive against Germany in 1941, but there is great debate over whether it was serious or simply a map exercise.

A for Peter's 'move' into Siberia, it was more simply to establish central control over the rather unruly Russians already out there than any concerted move to the east. The Siberians and Siberia already had a reputation for being largely 'outside authority' and Peter was not about to have that. It was another generation plus, under Catherine II, I believe, before any official settlements and emigration of any kind was started into the area, and not really until the end of the century before the notorious 'exile to Siberia' started to become a thing, and then as much to get more population into the area as punishment for disobedience. I believe the first Mass Deportations for political dissent were the Decembrists in the early 19th century, over a century after Peter's first Siberian Action.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

As cool as Siam* or Burma would be, I honestly think North America has a more pressing need for indigenous civs. There's basically only the Cree, and the Aztecs if you get really pedantic. I want the Iroquois, or the Lakota, or the Shoshone, or the Haida, or the Chinook, etc.

Failing that I think the Gulf of Guinea could do with some filling out: so many potential civs there...

* Besides, I've already made 3 leaders for them, and 2 of them are voiced and animated!

I’m annoyed that the PNW still hasn’t gotten a native american civ after all this time. Sure, the PNW tribes aren’t as well known. Sure, there are more well known options elsewhere, but the PNW was home to the most cultural diversity north of Mesoamerica. The Chinook and Coast Salish (and maybe the Haida as well?) come in-built with good leader choices as well.

I’d hope that the Navajo are the native american civ in the game, but chances are it’s the haudenosausee (don’t think i spelled that right lol)

 

[Starina]

I will reiterate here my support for Ivan Grozhnyi as an Alternate Leader for Russia: potential military, religious, cultural, and scientific Uniques: he built St Basil's unique cathedral, established the first printing plant in Moscow, formed the first units of Streltsi musket/axe pike and shot, and personally wrote dozens of religious and political documents. Not too terrible at all.

I support. I was hoping for Ivan even before the first glance at Russia in Civ 6, but alas... Well, replaces the goofy ability of Peter I.

A unique unit suggests itself: Streltsy
Perhaps they can replace Musketman and have the same +10 vs cavalry as Pike and Shot. Also available already in the Medieval
In addition to streltsy, a unique ability can also be military, it can be to annex city-states or fallen cities by loyalty (hello Dramatic ages !)

Just imagine a military-religious-cultural nation!

 

[Zaarin]

The sources I've seen have called what he's wearing in the picture a Raven's Tail robe and I'm not sure if it's a type of Chilkat blanket or not?

Yes, that's a Chilkat blanket.

I’m annoyed that the PNW still hasn’t gotten a native american civ after all this time. Sure, the PNW tribes aren’t as well known. Sure, there are more well known options elsewhere, but the PNW was home to the most cultural diversity north of Mesoamerica. The Chinook and Coast Salish (and maybe the Haida as well?) come in-built with good leader choices as well.

I’d hope that the Navajo are the native american civ in the game, but chances are it’s the haudenosausee (don’t think i spelled that right lol)

TBH, I'll be thrilled with the Haudenosaunee so long as we get a Brant--Joseph or Molly, don't care which. As I've mentioned before, I think Brant would tick a lot of the boxes for what draws people to Tecumseh. He's only less well known because for a long time Americans hated his guts (somehow it was easier to forgive Tecumseh for siding with the British? ).

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Yes, that's a Chilkat blanket.


TBH, I'll be thrilled with the Haudenosaunee so long as we get a Brant--Joseph or Molly, don't care which. As I've mentioned before, I think Brant would tick a lot of the boxes for what draws people to Tecumseh. He's only less well known because for a long time Americans hated his guts (somehow it was easier to forgive Tecumseh for siding with the British? ).

The Brants are very interesting. I just perused Joseph's wiki article and discovered he lived in Herkimer County, NY at the same time as my ancestors.

 

[AaronTBD]

Would anyone want a Pohnpei/Nan Madol civ? I think it could be very unique like maybe it could be like Venice in civ 5 in which only one city (Nan Madol) can be made. It could also have a ability to build districts on shallow water, but can only be built on land adjacent to shallow water and vice versa!

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Would anyone want a Pohnpei/Nan Madol civ? I think it could be very unique like maybe it could be like Venice in civ 5 in which only one city (Nan Madol) can be made. It could also have a ability to build districts on shallow water, but can only be built on land adjacent to shallow water and vice versa!

I wouldn't be a fan personally with so many restrictions (one city, has to be coastal). Plus it's fine as a city-state already in the game.
I also don't expect it to get in because there is an achievement attached to it.

 

[AaronTBD]

I wouldn't be a fan personally with so many restrictions (one city, has to be coastal). Plus it's fine as a city-state already in the game.
I also don't expect it to get in because there is an achievement attached to it.

Understandable, but I would still like to see one more civ in Oceania. It's the 'continent' no one talks about and is has the least amount of civs.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Understandable, but I would still like to see one more civ in Oceania. It's the 'continent' no one talks about and is has the least amount of civs.

I'd be surprised if we got anything more from Oceania other than Australia and the Maori, especially since none appeared for the first time until Civ 5. If we did I'd expect it to be another Polynesian culture such as Hawaii or Tonga, but I don't know how they would differentiate it from the Maori.

That being said I was surprised with Gaul, Phoenicia over Carthage, and Tamar of Georgia getting in so there you go.

 

[AaronTBD]

That being said I was surprised with Gaul, Phoenicia over Carthage, and Tamar of Georgia getting in so there you go.

At least there's some hope I guess

 

[LoneRebel]

Oh sorry but I did watch news over the sharp decline of nation in contrast to Vietnam (its main rivals in the region)

That's strange, who exactly thinks that Thailand is a "dying nation"? Afaik (from a fellow Southeast Asian) it's doing pretty well economically, constant coups and authoritarian rule notwithstanding. And aren't Thailand's main rivals historically Burma and Khmer, not Vietnam? Siam only came into conflict with Vietnam once Khmer had declined and the two ascendant powers started fighting over who would get to vassalize them.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Would anyone want a Pohnpei/Nan Madol civ? I think it could be very unique like maybe it could be like Venice in civ 5 in which only one city (Nan Madol) can be made. It could also have a ability to build districts on shallow water, but can only be built on land adjacent to shallow water and vice versa!

given Tonga and Hawaii would be difficult since they were shot in the foot by Maori being a Polynesian blob in all but name, a Micronesian/Pohnpei civ wouldn’t be bad. Would be interesting if they could built cities on reefs as an ability (and are guaranteed to start on one)

 

[PhoenicianGold]

given Tonga and Hawaii would be difficult since they were shot in the foot by Maori being a Polynesian blob in all but name, a Micronesian/Pohnpei civ wouldn’t be bad. Would be interesting if they could built cities on reefs as an ability (and are guaranteed to start on one)

I think it is kind of unfair to call the Maori a Polynesian blob, unless you are implying (perhaps correctly) that all Polynesian civs are fairly similar and difficult to distinguish from each other. The Toa, the Pa, the Marae, are all specifically Maori features that don't have very clear or strong equivalents in other major Polynesian cultures, making the design far less blobby than Rapa Nui heads and Maori warriors under Kamehameha.

The only blobby things about the Maori are Mana and Kupe's Voyage. KV definitely isn't strongly resonant as a Maori thing, but if Kupe was the best leader option for the Maori to even happen, then it's a reasonable concession. And Mana is a generally Polynesian belief, so its' technically not wrong to include for the Maori. While I think it is fair to say that Mana isn't really in line with Maori history either, I also don't think Mana encompasses other Polynesian cultures so thoroughly that it prevents, say, Tonga or Hawai'i from having an equally distinct CA.

So really the "blobbiness" to me amounts to Kupe's Voyage, but even that isn't a completely fair comparison because neither Tonga nor Hawai'i really deserve to start in the middle of the ocean either. Or they are equally deserving. The design decision to make the Maori like this, in theory, didn't take anything away from any other Polynesian civs, other than making them functionally serve as a Pacific ocean generalist that discourages any other civs in the area. That doesn't really make them blobby to my mind, so much as having a sprawling design space. So I guess the distinction is semantic.

That said, I would wholly welcome civs that repeat gimmicks from previous civs. If we got a second Polynesian civ with a similar Kupe ability, but with a drastically different playstyle, I think that would make the game design feel a lot more balanced. Like say a Hawaiian civ that only wants to settle small islands, be pacifist, trade, and generate a lot of tourism. We could get some solid alt-civs out of this (Siam-Khmer, Portugal-Spain, Kiev-Russia, Huns-Scythia, Timurids-Persia, Argentina-GC, etc. etc.)

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I think it is kind of unfair to call the Maori a Polynesian blob, unless you are implying (perhaps correctly) that all Polynesian civs are fairly similar and difficult to distinguish from each other. The Toa, the Pa, the Marae, are all specifically Maori features that don't have very clear or strong equivalents in other major Polynesian cultures, making the design far less blobby than Rapa Nui heads and Maori warriors under Kamehameha.

The only blobby things about the Maori are Mana and Kupe's Voyage. KV definitely isn't strongly resonant as a Maori thing, but if Kupe was the best leader option for the Maori to even happen, then it's a reasonable concession. And Mana is a generally Polynesian belief, so its' technically not wrong to include for the Maori. While I think it is fair to say that Mana isn't really in line with Maori history either, I also don't think Mana encompasses other Polynesian cultures so thoroughly that it prevents, say, Tonga or Hawai'i from having an equally distinct CA.

So really the "blobbiness" to me amounts to Kupe's Voyage, but even that isn't a completely fair comparison because neither Tonga nor Hawai'i really deserve to start in the middle of the ocean either. Or they are equally deserving. The design decision to make the Maori like this, in theory, didn't take anything away from any other Polynesian civs, other than making them functionally serve as a Pacific ocean generalist that discourages any other civs in the area. That doesn't really make them blobby to my mind, so much as having a sprawling design space. So I guess the distinction is semantic.

That said, I would wholly welcome civs that repeat gimmicks from previous civs. If we got a second Polynesian civ with a similar Kupe ability, but with a drastically different playstyle, I think that would make the game design feel a lot more balanced. Like say a Hawaiian civ that only wants to settle small islands, be pacifist, trade, and generate a lot of tourism. We could get some solid alt-civs out of this (Siam-Khmer, Portugal-Spain, Kiev-Russia, Huns-Scythia, Timurids-Persia, Argentina-GC, etc. etc.)

What people mean is that the Kupe parts of the Maori are less representative of the Maori people and more representative of virtually every other Polynesian culture.