[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Kupe Navigator]

It is really weird not having a Confucian leader of Korea. (I know it's appropriate for Seondeok, just weird.)

to be fair history of Buddhism in Korea is longer than Confucianism.

 

[Zaarin]

to be fair history of Buddhism in Korea is longer than Confucianism.

Indeed and is still quite prominent there, or was in the 90s, but Joseon was very distinctly Confucian--and Joseon is what most people think of as Korea if they have any familiarity with Korean history in the first place.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Indeed and is still quite prominent there, or was in the 90s, but Joseon was very distinctly Confucian--and Joseon is what most people think of as Korea if they have any familiarity with Korean history in the first place.

true but even now Buddhism is one of the major religion in Korea... along with Christianity. Meanwhile, Confucisionsim has been faded into the background ( it still have major impact culturally but not a major religious force anymore)

 

[Zaarin]

even now Buddhism is one of the major religion in Korea

I do believe I just said that.

 

[Narcisse]

Isn't the Grand Bazzar essentially a bedesten anyway?
I would agree that if it was just called bazaar, which is Persian in origin, it would be weird but I think it's appropriate considering the Grand Bazaar was built in the Ottoman Empire.
Of course bedesten would still be just as appropriate.

It's not only a question of language, the bedesten / bazaar refer to two different architectural typology. There is two Bedesten in the Great Bazaar. They are the oldest part of this complex and have a rectangular floor plan covered by domes.
The majort part of the Great Bazaar today, are bazaar btw : all the corridors of markets which surround these two bedesten.
So, the Firaxis naming make "sense". Just sad for me than the entire building was not modelized following Ottoman architecture : a bedesten lookalike with the appropriate name.
> My point is than it's not really better to just renaming the actual ingame building, which don't have the right model anyway.

 

[notNamed]

Indeed and is still quite prominent there, or was in the 90s, but Joseon was very distinctly Confucian--and Joseon is what most people think of as Korea if they have any familiarity with Korean history in the first place.

A great shame that it is. Sejong Moderator Action: [snip] and Admiral Yi are not the only things to have happened in the history of the place. Civ has a pretty ungrateful role in setting the trends here. Both Civ 3 and Civ 4 had Taejo focused on money and defense... and those traits were then what appeared in other strategy games depicting the folks at the time, even though the units being the trifecta of Hwarang/Hwacha/Turtle Ship has always been a constant. Bring in more of the times when Korea actually warred with someone and wasn't always on the defensive. Mix it up so as to not make the whole thing focused on the rule of a single guy and a duo of invasions which were both complete and utter debacles for Korea, making it easy pickings for further invasion and vasalisation by Jin/Qing. Or heck, if you want to depict Joseon, then actually depict Joseon as it was in the 480 years when it wasn't directly ruled by Sejong. The bureaucracy, politicking/constant backstabbing, extreme aversion to change, the seclusion from outsdie world, but also heights of cultural output that even the Chinese themselves, or even policies like Sojunghwa and do a full Joseon what-if of them actually bordering some 'barbarians' they'd try to uplift. Simply put, make Korea into actual Korea and then you can then freely assign all sorts of stuff to Sejong that steers it towards the min-maxed science culture which has been the staple since Civ 5. Just leave room for a different leader who can also change that up, unlike Seondeok here (I still don't understand what do Flower Boys have to do with science and culture output
).
But yeah, Joseon is the same sort of Confucian Disneyland as Qin is a Legalist one. Attacks and attempts to erase all religion from Korea (Islam was eradicated completely, Buddhism almost completely) was the daily routine for the half-millennium of Joseon rule since we all know just how much Neo-Confucianist ideology derides religion and put into the fanatical extremes of Joseon, makes active war on it. And given just how much of a Sejong the Civ 6 Seondeok is, they might as well have made her a Confucian.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Moderator Action: Please get back to discussing possible new civilizations - we have a world history forum that would be better for these discussions --NZ

 

[untitledjuan]

It's not only a question of language, the bedesten / bazaar refer to two different architectural typology. There is two Bedesten in the Great Bazaar. They are the oldest part of this complex and have a rectangular floor plan covered by domes.
The majort part of the Great Bazaar today, are bazaar btw : all the corridors of markets which surround these two bedesten.
So, the Firaxis naming make "sense". Just sad for me than the entire building was not modelized following Ottoman architecture : a bedesten lookalike with the appropriate name.
> My point is than it's not really better to just renaming the actual ingame building, which don't have the right model anyway.

The same happens to the Oppidum, it doesn't look quite like a real Oppidum

 

[8housesofelixir]

The same happens to the Oppidum, it doesn't look quite like a real Oppidum

And Hansa is an Industrial Zone rather than a Commercial Hub (Kontor).

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Traditionally, we always have at least 1 naval power every expansion, even in the separate DLCs before the first expansion, we most likely always have 1 naval civ. So far for NFP, we have none, while we did expect Portugal, it did not come to fruition in the latest European pack. If pack 5 is truly Vietnam and Kublai, they won't be naval either most likely, which leaves the November and the last (March) pack.

I think the two major geographical areas that haven't had representation in NFP is Indigenous North America and Central Asia, (although I do think the Native American one is pretty much a must while Central Asia can be hit-or-miss), neither of these two regions are really known for great naval powerhouses. What do you guys think? Do I miss something, or do you think we may experience NFP without a naval civ?

 

[8housesofelixir]

The major naval powerhouses which haven't show up in the game are: Portugal, Italian Maritime Cities, Chola Dynasty, Swahili Sultanates (we do have Zanzibar and Kilwa), Omani Empire (we do have Muscat).

In terms of geographical representation, Europe and Africa are already taken, therefore Portugal and Swahili is less likely. Italian Maritime Cities are more likely future City-States, similar to the current Venice.

Although one may argue that Ethiopia cannot represent East Africa as a whole so there are rooms for Swahili; Swahili is also a popular moded civ. Moreover, Swahili Coast were historically part of the Omani Maritime Empire, so an Omani civ can hit two birds with one stone.

Chola can be loosely considered the 3rd "Indian" civ, if they want to represent South Asia more then Chola does have some chance.

On the other hand, IMHO this post probably belongs to the Possible New Civilizations Thread. Moderator Action: Agreed - thread moved

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

Doesn't Byzantium count as a naval civ? It has a UU for water and the civs UA increases all units CS so also naval units.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Doesn't Byzantium count as a naval civ? It has a UU for water and the civs UA increases all units CS so also naval units.

I think by naval civ we usually assume that most - if not all - civ's abilities are strongly gear towards/synergize with naval mechanisms. Phoenicia is a perfect example - every ability of them is centered around Cothon, a unique Harbor. On the contrary, most of Byzantium's abilities are gear towards a Religion-Calvary domination.

If just having a naval UU can make a civ as a naval civ, then Ottomans, Germany, and Brazil are all naval civs as well.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Traditionally, we always have at least 1 naval power every expansion, even in the separate DLCs before the first expansion, we most likely always have 1 naval civ. So far for NFP, we have none, while we did expect Portugal, it did not come to fruition in the latest European pack. If pack 5 is truly Vietnam and Kublai, they won't be naval either most likely, which leaves the November and the last (March) pack.

I think the two major geographical areas that haven't had representation in NFP is Indigenous North America and Central Asia, (although I do think the Native American one is pretty much a must while Central Asia can be hit-or-miss), neither of these two regions are really known for great naval powerhouses. What do you guys think? Do I miss something, or do you think we may experience NFP without a naval civ?

Doesn't Byzantium count as a naval civ? It has a UU for water and the civs UA increases all units CS so also naval units.

I don't look at Byzantium as being naval so much as a generalist civ.

I think we will get a naval civ and that Portugal is the most likely addition for DLC 6 (makes sense to me to spread out the European civ releases).

That said, in the unlikely event Portugal is saved for a second season, and instead we get Assyria in DLC 6, then a naval civ is begged.

I think the clearest option is Oman to cover the Arabian peninsula and the Swahili/Somali coast. However that might be too close geographically to Assyria and the devs might not want two MENA civs.

Long shot Morocco could return, same MENA doubling up but at least filling a more distinct geographic area. Although I think at this point the devs would be leaning toward Numidia if we see anything.

Also longshot Swahili/Zanzibar civ, although for multiple reasons I don't see that happening over Oman.

And I just don't see the Chola or any SEA civ happening alongside Vietnam this season.

So every choice has its drawbacks, which makes me think either we have a clear-cut Assyria/Portugal decision, or perhaps we are getting two completely new civs instead, because Assyria doesn't pair well with the stronger MENA naval options.

Either that, or we are getting the Inuit and Assyria.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Doesn't Byzantium count as a naval civ? It has a UU for water and the civs UA increases all units CS so also naval units.

Nah, Byzantium is not anymore naval and the Ottomans.

Also longshot Swahili/Zanzibar civ, although for multiple reasons I don't see that happening over Oman.

And I just don't see the Chola or any SEA civ happening alongside Vietnam this season.

So every choice has its drawbacks, which makes me think either we have a clear-cut Assyria/Portugal decision, or perhaps we are getting two completely new civs instead, because Assyria doesn't pair well with the stronger MENA naval options.

Either that, or we are getting the Inuit and Assyria.

Is the Inuit known for seafaring though? I agree that maybe the devs group North Africa with Middle East due to their close Arabic roots, so Ethiopia may not rule out Morocco. I much prefer a new civ for this region than Assyria coming back, Oman sounds awesome.

 

[Hakan-i Cihan]

I think by naval civ we usually assume that most - if not all - civ's abilities are strongly gear towards/synergize with naval mechanisms. Phoenicia is a perfect example - every ability of them is centered around Cothon, a unique Harbor. On the contrary, most of Byzantium's abilities are gear towards a Religion-Calvary domination.

If just having a naval UU can make a civ as a naval civ, then Ottomans, Germany, and Brazil are all naval civs as well.

Not just having a naval UU. Taxis (+3 for every converted holy city also to naval units) can let Byzantium dominate the seas (not that AI naval warfare is well). Not any of the other "naval" civs has that bonus, well Japan to some degree for coast tiles. Byzantium is (mainly) not designed around naval bonuses and I would agree calling them a religion-domination civ. But as they are now the naval civs are quite jealous of their sea power. So I wouldn't count them out...

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Is the Inuit known for seafaring though? I agree that maybe the devs group North Africa with Middle East due to their close Arabic roots, so Ethiopia may not rule out Morocco. I much prefer a new civ for this region than Assyria coming back, Oman sounds awesome.

The Inuit are known for kayaking, whaling, generally navigating and settling most of Arctic America. They're certainly more seafaring than the Saami or Yakut.

I too would prefer new civs, if only because most of the staples will return anyway and every staple delayed is another opportunity to feature another culture. And frankly if I wanted a game with nothing but staples I could just play V.

 

[DogeEnricoDandolo]

Not just having a naval UU. Taxis (+3 for every converted holy city also to naval units) can let Byzantium dominate the seas (not that AI naval warfare is well). Not any of the other "naval" civs has that bonus, well Japan to some degree for coast tiles. Byzantium is (mainly) not designed around naval bonuses and I would agree calling them a religion-domination civ. But as they are now the naval civs are quite jealous of their sea power. So I wouldn't count them out...

A naval power is someone who feels crippled having to play on a land-dominated map. Byzantium feels so much worse having to play on a water map, they are the literally the opposite of what you would call naval.

 

[8housesofelixir]

Not just having a naval UU. Taxis (+3 for every converted holy city also to naval units) can let Byzantium dominate the seas (not that AI naval warfare is well). Not any of the other "naval" civs has that bonus.

Germany's City-State combat bonus also apply to their U-Boat. Ottoman's taking-city-without-population-lost ability apply to their Barbary Corsair as well.
Therefore according to the above logic Germany and Ottomans are still naval civs.

And that's why most of us won't consider a naval UU - plus a general ability which somehow apply to your naval units - alone can make you a naval civ:
Like the Byzantium ability, the German and Ottoman abilities apply to all units, including the naval units. But does all units bonus equal to naval unit bonus, and does naval unit bonus only equal to naval-centered playstyle? (A lot of naval civ, despite a naval UU, don't have anything to buff their naval combat strength.)
Byzantium have a toolbox full of tools to help them win religious-domination, but only have 2 tools to help them in the ocean.

 

[Zaarin]

I'd rather have the Makah or Nuu-chah-nulth for a whaling civ TBH.