[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Lonecat Nekophrodite]

I largely agree with you. But to answer:

Thailand's main rival is probably itself - the military has been mostly concerned with political unrest in Bangkok, forced disappearances of activists, and the ongoing conflict in the south - it's an old Thai student saying that the military is most skilled at shooting at Thais.

But that's a cheeky (but accurate) response. Who the "main rival" was depends on time.

Siam originated as a conflict/contest between a number of different city-states, until Ayutthaya won out. So pre-1500s, the answer is still "itself".

20th century royalist histories and more recent films held Burma up to be the quintessential enemy, and Laos and Cambodia (and Lanna) were tributary states that flipped back and forth between vassalage, independence, and dependence upon a different center - sometimes all three at once. There were a few direct wars with these (Anouvong's push from Laos, and Chiang Mai was a part of Burma 16th-18th C). Vietnam was a player in this contest, but distant - the two powers did skirmish at times over Cambodia, but it was more of a diplomatic conflict and less of a direct one.

Were you to ask a Thai in 1930 who the real enemy was, they might say "the French" - the colonial powers fought hard to drop Siam into debt (Britain) or simply to force it to yield (albeit flimsy) claims to territory (France).

Then, as Thailand became in essence a client state of the USA during the Cold War, "Communists" became the threat identified by the Thai military, especially Vietnamese. This in turn caused a great deal of paranoia and some terrifying scenes of Thais killing Thais (we are just past the anniversary of one - 6 October 1976).

And regional developments in ASEAN (Particularly Mekhong ASEAN) were and still are more on competitive forms and less on collaborations. countries, and nations didn't grown up together but vying against each other. one might say if Thailand did not emerge from 15 years dispuite. it will never be... and one might even fears the Dai Viet ambitions as well as it might eventually swallow Siam entirely. as Laos and Cambodias are now firmly within VN's grip (until 2000s where China re-exertes its influence over the region particularly with several dams built in Yunnan province of China,).. Is it still possible if the three rivals can 'grow together'? or with one of the three decided to yield?
Do you think Mekhong rivalty is comparable to German Unification games between Austria, Prussia, and France?

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please discuss history in the History Forum. This is a speculation thread. Back to topic please.

 

[untitledjuan]

I have gathered some statistics on the current leaders in the game:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-6-leader-statistics.663579/

Maybe they're useful for the discussion of who will be/should be a new Civ in the game

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I have gathered some statistics on the current leaders in the game:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-6-leader-statistics.663579/

Maybe they're useful for the discussion of who will be/should be a new Civ in the game

wow we need more hindu and muslim leaders

also not one dravidian-speaking leader: Chola pls

 

[Jeppetto]

Because it's "terrible" as in "inspiring terror", not terrible as in "awful". But then the English language shifted without the epithet shifting alongside it.

I think Ivan the Terrifying is the closest to one-word translation that maintains the Terrible thing while somewhat conveying the point

 

[8housesofelixir]

I think Ivan the Terrifying is the closest to one-word translation that maintains the Terrible thing while somewhat conveying the point

To quote @Starina: "The words "грозный" (en. Terrible, adjective) and "гроза" (en. Thunderstorm, noun) are very similar both in writing and in meaning."

This similarity resulted that in Japanese and Chinese Ivan's nickname грозный was being translated as "Thunder", and we usually just call him "Ivan the Thunder" (イヴァン雷帝/伊凡雷帝, literally Ivan the Thunder Tzar). Maybe this can be an interesting alternative translation for him.

I have gathered some statistics on the current leaders in the game:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civ-6-leader-statistics.663579/
Maybe they're useful for the discussion of who will be/should be a new Civ in the game

Very interesting statistics. I do think, in terms of representation and percentage, we need more people from the Iranian-Central Asia and the Muslim world.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

the mod Historicity 2 changes bazaar to bedesden, which is grantedly more unique to ottomans

Isn't the Grand Bazzar essentially a bedesten anyway?
I would agree that if it was just called bazaar, which is Persian in origin, it would be weird but I think it's appropriate considering the Grand Bazaar was built in the Ottoman Empire.
Of course bedesten would still be just as appropriate.

wow we need more hindu and muslim leaders

To be fair it would also be nice for us to have at least one Jewish leader, such as Dihya because Dido doesn't count, and possibly a Confucian leader, maybe Vietnam if it's possible?

Technically when it comes to the leaders who prefer religions, Hinduism and Islam are tied for second, well only if you lump all the different Christian denominations together because in that case then it would go Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodox as the top 3.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Isn't the Grand Bazzar essentially a bedesten anyway?
I would agree that if it was just called bazaar, which is Persian in origin, it would be weird but I think it's appropriate considering the Grand Bazaar was built in the Ottoman Empire.
Of course bedesten would still be just as appropriate.


To be fair it would also be nice for us to have at least one Jewish leader, such as Dihya because Dido doesn't count, and possibly a Confucian leader, maybe Vietnam if it's possible?

Technically when it comes to the leaders who prefer religions, Hinduism and Islam are tied for second, well only if you lump all the different Christian denominations together because in that case then it would go Catholicism, Protestantism, Eastern Orthodox as the top 3.

IIRC, the claim that Dihya was Jewish is not well regarded among modern historians. In all likelihood she was either a Christian or a North African type pagan.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

IIRC, the claim that Dihya was Jewish is not well regarded among modern historians. In all likelihood she was either a Christian or a North African type pagan.

Well since Dido prefers Judaism and Harald and Kristina prefers Protestantism is in the game, it's certainly possible.

 

[8housesofelixir]

possibly a Confucian leader

A lot of Chinese rulers were not Confucian besides promoted them as Civil Service Examination materials - that is to say, if you consider things like Heaven Worship and Ancestor Worship as non-Confucian (which they are actually not - they long predated Confucianism).

Many of these rulers were Taoist (early Tang emperors and late Ming emperors), Buddhist (Qing emperors), or who tried to create an universal religion from all the Chinese folk religions (Qin Shi Huang and Emperor Wu of Han), or who tried to make use of religion as a tool for legitimacy rather than deeply believe in it (Wu Zetian, many Ming emperors).

Religion can be considered as a useful reference in term of the representative categories of the leaders, but I personally wouldn't suggest a civil religion as one of them.

 

[Zaarin]

To be fair it would also be nice for us to have at least one Jewish leader, such as Dihya

Like Eagle Pursuit said, this is pretty roundly rejected by most scholars.

possibly a Confucian leader

It is really weird not having a Confucian leader of Korea. (I know it's appropriate for Seondeok, just weird.)

Kristina prefers Protestantism

Kristina didn't convert to Catholicism until after her abdication because she probably would have been Charles I'd otherwise. What's weird is that Harald favors Protestantism, despite being Catholic (and living 500 years before Luther)...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Kristina didn't convert to Catholicism until after her abdication because she probably would have been Charles I'd otherwise. What's weird is that Harald favors Protestantism, despite being Catholic (and living 500 years before Luther)...

Plus he talks about Odin in game and I just meant that Kristina is more well known for converting to Catholicism.

I can understand why they probably wanted to make the two Scandinavia civs Protestant though. That would leave only Teddy, Victoria and Wilhelmina as the only ones who prefer it with two of them, Teddy and Victoria programmed to not actively go for faith/religion.
Which is funny because as Teddy you need faith for national parks.

Btw they could have at least made him prefer Eastern Orthodox to tie in the fact that he was a member of the Varangian Guard at some point in his life.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

It is really weird not having a Confucian leader of Korea. (I know it's appropriate for Seondeok, just weird.)

to be fair history of Buddhism in Korea is longer than Confucianism.

 

[Zaarin]

to be fair history of Buddhism in Korea is longer than Confucianism.

Indeed and is still quite prominent there, or was in the 90s, but Joseon was very distinctly Confucian--and Joseon is what most people think of as Korea if they have any familiarity with Korean history in the first place.

 

[Kupe Navigator]

Indeed and is still quite prominent there, or was in the 90s, but Joseon was very distinctly Confucian--and Joseon is what most people think of as Korea if they have any familiarity with Korean history in the first place.

true but even now Buddhism is one of the major religion in Korea... along with Christianity. Meanwhile, Confucisionsim has been faded into the background ( it still have major impact culturally but not a major religious force anymore)

 

[Zaarin]

even now Buddhism is one of the major religion in Korea

I do believe I just said that.

 

[Narcisse]

Isn't the Grand Bazzar essentially a bedesten anyway?
I would agree that if it was just called bazaar, which is Persian in origin, it would be weird but I think it's appropriate considering the Grand Bazaar was built in the Ottoman Empire.
Of course bedesten would still be just as appropriate.

It's not only a question of language, the bedesten / bazaar refer to two different architectural typology. There is two Bedesten in the Great Bazaar. They are the oldest part of this complex and have a rectangular floor plan covered by domes.
The majort part of the Great Bazaar today, are bazaar btw : all the corridors of markets which surround these two bedesten.
So, the Firaxis naming make "sense". Just sad for me than the entire building was not modelized following Ottoman architecture : a bedesten lookalike with the appropriate name.
> My point is than it's not really better to just renaming the actual ingame building, which don't have the right model anyway.

 

[notNamed]

Indeed and is still quite prominent there, or was in the 90s, but Joseon was very distinctly Confucian--and Joseon is what most people think of as Korea if they have any familiarity with Korean history in the first place.

A great shame that it is. Sejong Moderator Action: [snip] and Admiral Yi are not the only things to have happened in the history of the place. Civ has a pretty ungrateful role in setting the trends here. Both Civ 3 and Civ 4 had Taejo focused on money and defense... and those traits were then what appeared in other strategy games depicting the folks at the time, even though the units being the trifecta of Hwarang/Hwacha/Turtle Ship has always been a constant. Bring in more of the times when Korea actually warred with someone and wasn't always on the defensive. Mix it up so as to not make the whole thing focused on the rule of a single guy and a duo of invasions which were both complete and utter debacles for Korea, making it easy pickings for further invasion and vasalisation by Jin/Qing. Or heck, if you want to depict Joseon, then actually depict Joseon as it was in the 480 years when it wasn't directly ruled by Sejong. The bureaucracy, politicking/constant backstabbing, extreme aversion to change, the seclusion from outsdie world, but also heights of cultural output that even the Chinese themselves, or even policies like Sojunghwa and do a full Joseon what-if of them actually bordering some 'barbarians' they'd try to uplift. Simply put, make Korea into actual Korea and then you can then freely assign all sorts of stuff to Sejong that steers it towards the min-maxed science culture which has been the staple since Civ 5. Just leave room for a different leader who can also change that up, unlike Seondeok here (I still don't understand what do Flower Boys have to do with science and culture output
).
But yeah, Joseon is the same sort of Confucian Disneyland as Qin is a Legalist one. Attacks and attempts to erase all religion from Korea (Islam was eradicated completely, Buddhism almost completely) was the daily routine for the half-millennium of Joseon rule since we all know just how much Neo-Confucianist ideology derides religion and put into the fanatical extremes of Joseon, makes active war on it. And given just how much of a Sejong the Civ 6 Seondeok is, they might as well have made her a Confucian.

 

[Noble Zarkon]

Moderator Action: Please get back to discussing possible new civilizations - we have a world history forum that would be better for these discussions --NZ

 

[untitledjuan]

It's not only a question of language, the bedesten / bazaar refer to two different architectural typology. There is two Bedesten in the Great Bazaar. They are the oldest part of this complex and have a rectangular floor plan covered by domes.
The majort part of the Great Bazaar today, are bazaar btw : all the corridors of markets which surround these two bedesten.
So, the Firaxis naming make "sense". Just sad for me than the entire building was not modelized following Ottoman architecture : a bedesten lookalike with the appropriate name.
> My point is than it's not really better to just renaming the actual ingame building, which don't have the right model anyway.

The same happens to the Oppidum, it doesn't look quite like a real Oppidum