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[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    The Mongol chieftains also preferred to marry Chinese noble-ladies over their own women after the fall of the Song, so the later Yuan (and Northern Yuan) Dynasties had significant Han blood - and Han mothers-in-law nannying their children.
     
  2. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    The Xianbei people, who established the Northern Wei dynasty, took more than 100 years (408-534) to "Sinicize" themselves after moved into the Han populations of Northern China, and collapsed because of a considerable amount of them refused to be sinicized and rebelled. Looks not "quickly" at all.

    One of the dynasties that succeed Northern Wei, the Eastern Wei-Northern Qi dynasty (534-577 - that's 40 more years after the more than 100 years already), was created by a Xianbei-ized Han general. So even agrarian Chinese can adopt a steppe culture and identity.

    If accepting a bureaucrat-selecting system equals to culture assimilation, then we can also safely conclude that China also assimilated Korea and Vietnam, while Byzantine assimilated the Ottomans. Sounds about right.:mischief:

    The Mongols had their own steppe-style governance system, Darughachi, and the re-introduction of Imperial Examinations didn't stop the Darughachi system from running. In fact, the Confucian scholar-officials and the steppe Darughachi basically worked as two parallel system in Yuan dynasty. Buyantu Khan, who restored the Imperial Examinations, also finalized the Yuan legal code, a lot of which was drawn from Mongol traditions; and he employed them to rule his Chinese subjects.

    Most importantly, the adaption of Imperial Examinations also didn't stop Mongol Emperors and aristocrats continued to speak Mongolian and participate in Mongolian culture practices - in other words, didn't mark an end of their Mongolian identity. When Chinese forces drove the Mongols away in 1368, the Mongols easily returned to the steppes as well as returned to nomadic empire. Didn't sound like being assimilated at all.

    Throughout the Ming dynasty - the Chinese dynasty which drove away the Mongols - the Ming subjects who lived in the border regions of the empire, continued to defect to Mongols because of high taxes or harsh corvée duties.

    During the reign of Jiajing Emperor (1521-1567), the Ming bureaucrats tend to persecute the White Lotus cultists, and as a result the locals of the Shanxi Province (right next to the territories of Tümed Mongols), who were largely cultists, defected to steppes in tens of thousands. The Khan of the Tümed Mongols, Altan Khan, even crossed the Great Wall and besieged Beijing in 1550 with the help of those defected cultists. The Chinese population defected to the Tümed Mongols were so large in number, to the point which they formed a city around the Ordu of the Tümed Mongols, named Guihua (today's Hoh'hot). Nearly all these Chinese people were assimilated into Mongols after one or two generations.

    There are also a great many records about how early Manchu rulers assimilated Han Chinese into the Eight Banners, and many of these people developed a Manchu identity afterwards. It just works both ways.

    Again, if the conquers marrying the conquereds equals to culture assimilation, then we can also safely conclude that Sabines assimilated the Romans, and Greeks assimilated the Ottomans. Sounds about right.:mischief:

    Also, please check some lists about Mongolian emperors' wives before claiming like that. Most of them were actually Mongolians, or at least Koreans (Empress Gi was Korean). Only very few of them were Han Chinese, if there was any.

    If we really want to talk about "bloodlines" - it is highly possible that the Ming imperial household had a Mongol blood as well.
    Yongle Emperor secretly worshipped one of the consorts of his father in the Royal Ancestral Hall as his real biological mother, instead of his father's wife. According to contemporary historical accounts, this mysterious consort, called Gong Fei 碽妃, was either Mongolian or Korean. A Mongolian chronicle, Altan Tobchi, also claimed that Yongle's mother was a Mongolian women.



    In short, let me reaffirm my argument: At least in East Asia, "speedy" cultural assimilation of steppe nomads is basically a myth.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  3. Birch617

    Birch617 Warlord

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    If the Champa get into the game, what would their UU be?
     
  4. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    I know it may sounds old, but probably an Elephant UU (that is, if it is not a naval UU).

    Vietnam's use of elephant in warfare was very likely adopted from Champa's use of elephant. The last strong king of Champa, Po Binasuor (Chế Bồng Nga in Vietnamese), developed a series of dedicated elephant tactics and employ them to defeat Vietnam forces.
     
  5. almughavar

    almughavar Political commissar

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    It's gonna be a warship, since Champa's economy relied on trading, they needed to maintain a strong fleet, and in reality Champa couldn't compete with other countries in the region in terms of land power.
     
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  6. LoneRebel

    LoneRebel Emperor

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    Bom dia! :grouphug:

    Slight correction. Magellan did not come up with the name "Felipinas", he just involved himself in local disputes and got himself killed. :mischief: It was another Spanish explorer that came up with the name.
     
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  7. notNamed

    notNamed Warlord

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    The Khmer reliefs of their war with the Champa don't exactly show off impressive navies, though.
    Ironically enough, the ballista on elephants came from them and Khmer simply adopted it. Had we wanted to incude Champa, that unit (already deemed good enough for inclusion for Khmer) would have gone to them.
    Also, I disagree with the uncompetitve nature of the Champa. If you read that travel chronicle on Khmer Empire, it literally talks about how the Champa require a pretty brutal (human) gall-bladder tribute from the Khmer and those reluctantly give it to them. The reliefs we so commonly see cited for Khmer actually show off scenes of the Khmer leader finally beating them back after Champas came in and conquered the place for 5 years or so.
     
  8. almughavar

    almughavar Political commissar

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    I didn’t say that Champa was uncompetitive. I said that it was Champa’s navy which gave it an edge over other countries in the region, but at the same time its land power was weaker compared to them.

    I can only guess that the war you mentioned was the 1170s Champa - Khmer war, in which the Champa was unable to gain an upper hand to break the stalemate, until they used their warships to sail upstream the Mekong River to the Tonle Sap lake in Khmer Empire and laid waste to its capital (Angkor), killing the Khmer king in process.

    So yeah, if anything your example proved my point of Champa military’s main advantage was its navy.
     
  9. Codeword Iroquois

    Codeword Iroquois Warlord

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    Problem: from what I can tell, they didn't have a name for individual varieties of their boats, they just kind of existed.
     
  10. Geminus Leonem

    Geminus Leonem Chieftain

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    I am 99.99999999999% sure that they won't do another American or European Civ. They always just do 2 American and 2 European Civs per Expansion and so far they are following their usual quasi-rules to the letter:
    • 4 Returned Civs
    • 4 New Civs
    • 3 Female Leaders, one of which must replace a Returned Civ's male leader from Civ V.
    • 1 S.American Civ and 1 N.American Civ with one of them being New and the other Returned
    • 1 Civ from Africa
    • 2 European Civs with one of them being New and the other Returned
    • 3 Civs from Asia+Oceania with 1 one of them being from the Middle East
    • 1 Civ must have used to be under the British Empire's sphere (which is why I think Hawaii will be added in as they were a British Protectorate for a while)

    Also, I meant they are going eastwards by Region. Continental Europe's Westernmost point is still east of Africa's Westernmost point after all.
     
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  11. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Right I didn’t mean he named it but rather discovered it.

    So you are saying that there’s a chance for another European or North American civ?:mischief:

    I personally don’t think Hawaii has a big chance due to the Maori design.

    Though if the British sphere is the criteria modern New Zealand I feel like would have a better chance. :shifty:
    Not that I want or need it.
     
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  12. Eagle Pursuit

    Eagle Pursuit Scir-Gerefa

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    What are the chances Ashur replaces Babylon as a Science city-state?
     
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  13. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    I don't think we can rely on what they've done in the past as a reasonable prediction of the future. NFP isn't a typical expansion; it's simply tidying up with the missing staples before closing development. Besides, I'd point out that both previous expansions have had a civilization from anthropological North America (Cree, Canada), which NFP has not. I am 100% certain the final unknown civ is either Portugal or a Native North American civ.

    Slim? I'd expect Nineveh personally, though I think Ebla and Mari are the best fits for the replacement.
     
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  14. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    This is what I was thinking too. I'd love to see it.
     
  15. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    @8housesofelixer, thank you very much for your reply. I am not at all familiar with the earlier Chinese Dynasties and their 'northern barbarian' connections, most of my reading having been confined to the Tang and later.

    On the other hand, my point remains: assimilation worked both ways, but the predominance of population meant that the culture of the larger group (Han Chinese) predominated in the long run. Was there a large population of 'Steppe-influenced Chinese' by the 18th century? Was there, in fact, much of any indication of steppe-culture influence in China by the 19th? (I'm seriously asking: I don't know of any, but my Asian History professor in college in the 1960s - 70s was a mainland refugee from Taiwan who spent most of her time 'proving' that Everything Good was Traditional Chinese and the Japanese and Communists were all barely distinguishable from Lower Primates. I'm afraid I learned very little useful from her or the course, and as stated, my reading in Chinese history since has been sporadic and not systematic)

    Also, the assimilation, genetic or otherwise, of a ruling group or set of families is frequently very different from that of the bulk of the population. As an example I'm familiar with, Alexander married both a Persian and a 'steppe' (well, Sogdian) wife, but he had to command his officers to take Persian wives, and many of those were repudiated as soon as he was dead. The 'acculturation' of Greek philosophies into the Middle East called Hellenistic was in fact a veneer of Greekiness on top of Persian and Middle Eastern cultures already well-established. So much so that less than 200 years later Roman writers were ranting about 'barbaric (meaning Un-Roman or Greek) religions and practices' corrupting their people - among which they included Christianity and Judaism, both "eastern religions' to the Roman elite.
    And less-regulated cultures can be very attractive to people brought up under heavy legal and cultural restrictions. Not only Imperial Chinese subjects, but European colonials regularly ran away to or refused to return from Native American groups they joined, because they preferred the 'savage' to the 'civilized' - this is one of the 'dirty little secrets' of American History not told in the approved history books, but evidence is readily available if you bother to look.

    To bring it all back to the game, 'assimilation' right now in Civ VI is pretty much limited to a Loyalty mechanic, which devolves everything about cultural, linguistic, genetic or administrative assimilation down to "Are they mad enough to Revolt" and nothing else.
    It would be far more interesting, but probably also complex enough to be better left to Civ VII, if the Social Policies and Civics adopted by different Civs (including City States and maybe even Barbarians) had an effect on both the conquered/assimilated and the conquerers, and seriously affected the speed or even the possibility of maintaining enough 'Loyalty' to safely administer a city or region without requiring a major military garrison and security investment. This would also allow/require the game to include the possibility of moving populations around to ensure loyalty, a trick practiced by numerous states throughout history from Assyria to the Soviet Union.
     
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  16. Geminus Leonem

    Geminus Leonem Chieftain

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    Is... is the bit about Canada being anthropologically North American suppose to be a joke of some sort? Because they are assuredly NOT. The Canadian government even famously went out of their way to kidnap proper North American Native children and forcefully send them to schools to culturally cleanse them. To not even mention the multiple forced starvation of native tribes, the spread of disease through the native communities that were actively ignored, and such other awful stuff.

    Plus the Mayans were anthropologically North American, as they were native to Mesoamerica, a region of the North American sub-continent... Don't really know why this is even an issue... Anyway, it doesn't even really matter because I meant Geographic regions, not Anthropological Ancestry.

    Also, you claim that you can't predict the NFP Civ choices because it isn't a typical expansion, BUT every single Civ released until now with the Pack follow the EXACT same rules as the previous 2 expansions. I should even point out that I predicted 5 of the 7 released/leaked Civs 9 months ago before the NFP was even announced. I got the leaders all wrong aside from Bolivar (because of course it would be him leading Colombia) and I really wanted Ireland, Portugal, and Mughalistan to be picked, but the same overall rules were followed to a similar result of what we ended up with.

    Still, I gotta be honest, I also kinda wish that they would break their internal consistency so that they could pick a Civ that I want (especially if it's Portugal). Alas, the chance is borderline nill, as breaking whatever rules they have for one Civ like that would probably cause unnecessary conflicts within the dev team. :(
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  17. Zaarin

    Zaarin Chief Medical Officer, DS9

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    What does any of that have to do with where Canada is located? :confused: Anthropological North America is the region from the Rio Grande to the Arctic Ocean. The behavior of the people who lived there is utterly and bafflingly irrelevant to a discussion of where it's located.

    Mesoamerica is its own anthropological region and is not considered with North America in anthropology, which, again, begins at the Rio Grande. The Maya are Mesoamerican, not North American.

    Congratulations, I did, too, since I predicted from day one that this was going to be a fan service pack. The people speculating on all manner of obscure and unexpected civs, however worthy, were bound to be disappointed. I expected Assyria over Babylon and Gaul was a surprise, but overall NFP has been exactly what I predicted it would be. And to that end a second Oceania civ has a 0% chance of making it into NFP. Very few people are asking for it; it doesn't suit the purpose of the pass.

    Well, then I think you're in for a pleasant surprise. I think you're regarding their "rules" as much more sacrosanct than they do. NFP exists as fan service, pure and simple. We've had a few surprises, but they're not going to pick Hawai'i when Portugal or a Native North American civ will sell better and will round out the roster better before they move on to whatever is in development next.
     
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  18. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I’d expect Nineveh if we were going to go with an Assyrian city-state because of Ashurbanipal’s Royal Library.

    Speaking of city-state replacements is there a chance that Akkad might get replaced as well?
    Akkad has been a Babylonian city in every game and I guess Assur could take that place while Babylon turns into Ebla.
     
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  19. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    Qing government maintained a very strict control over the migration of Chinese population into Manchuria and Mongolia (then called Guanwai 關外, "the Land beyond the Passes of the Great Wall") before late 19th century. Technically speaking, the Manchu culture heavily "influenced" the "Chinese" culture (for instance, clothing, language customs, foods), but not to the point of a large scale assimilation.

    However, there is one important point about the Manchus - you probably noticed I didn't talk much about Manchus in my last post about assimilation, and this is the reason: They are not steppe people. They didn't live in the steppes; they were settled farmers with advanced agriculture, and they barely practice pastoral nomadism. Han Chinese and Koreans who lived in Manchuria before 17th century easily assimilated into the Manchus, because their lifestyle and economical practices were not that different. And, conversely (as you can tell), when Han Chinese migrated into Manchuria in massive numbers in late 19th century, the Manchus assimilated into them as well (but not "easily", it took nearly 100 years and some forced education), for both are agriculturists.
    The Mongols, on the other hand, remained on steppes with their own culture and lifestyle. A massive amount of Han Chinese migrated into Mongol territories - on the border of the steppes - since 19th century and turned these regions into farmlands, but the Mongols (even those who now lived in PRC) still retained their culture, social practice, and not to say, language. One of the reason is the Mongols still practice pastoralism (or at least livestock raising) on the steppes while the Han Chinese are just move into the region for farming and commerce.

    That's why I said, after Humankind's portrayals of the Huns, what 4x games still lacks about steppe people is how they turned a land of a logistic nightmare into an empire based on "highways" - in other words, how they actually survived in the steppes, while the agriculturists cannot.
    The agriculturists cannot simply "transplant" their way of life to the steppes (at least before modern technology such as dams and large-scale irrigation works); if they want to survive, they need to adopt the "steppe way" - and often being assimilated as a result. Conversely, the steppe people (real steppe people, not Manchu farmers), when move into agricultural lands, need to either 1. adopt the agricultural way (being assimilated as a result) 2. turn the agricultural lands into pastures (which is actually quite feasible, Yuan had done this) and continued their pastoralism, but at the cost of reduce agricultural population and their economical outputs in huge amount.

    If any 4x games in the future can represent this dynamic - that is, represent the steppes as unsurvivable for agrarian society (similar to how Desert and Tundra works currently), requires every empire that moved into it to adopt the "steppe way" in order to survive, and made the steppe feature an important part of these empire's culture traits - then I would safely call it a (nearly) perfect 4x game. That's how the Huns, the Mongols, the Göktürks, etc. made their history.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
  20. AsH2

    AsH2 Prince

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    DNA reconstructions have shown the indo-europeans (pastoral) greatly outnumbered the Early European Farmer (EEF).
    Spoiler disturbing example :
    Here (in Sweden) there were 10 Battle Axe culture males per 1 EEF woman - that means it's likely my ancestry has sheep shagging uncles from that time.
     

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