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[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by Eagle Pursuit, May 11, 2020.

  1. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    I never said any such thing, but thank you for putting words in my mouth. I'm neither going to read further into your post nor respond to it because you are arrogant and self-satisfied, and I have better things to do with my time than argue with smug self-satisfied people on the internet. I used to enjoy it as a teenager, but when I grew up I found arguing for its own sake lost its charm. Have a nice day.
     
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  2. GenyaArikado

    GenyaArikado Judge of Love

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    Erm... We actually had a leaker ages ago who mentioned those civs. They aren't coming from nowhere

    Anyway. Rooting for North America Native civ with a female leader for last female leader
     
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  3. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Queen Lili'uokani is already a Great Musician with Great work of music in the game so I don't see her happening as the only reasonable female leader of Hawaii.

    If we have to pick a female leader for Oceania let it be Queen Salamasina of Samoa. :mischief:

    I personally think this is it and they are going to wrap up the game by introducing Portugal, but if not there is the off chance they could do Jigonhsasee of the Haudenosaunee as well.

    The only other region that I can possibly see is North Africa, like Dihya of the Berbers, considering we don't have any representation from there. Even so I think the chance of them appearing are even slim but higher than Oceania at least.

    Que the appearance of Isabella of Portugal on the initial leader's portrait again. ;)

    I am also 99.99999% sure that will end up being the case as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
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  4. Boris Gudenuf

    Boris Gudenuf Deity

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    I was actually aware that the Manchus were not. strictly speaking, 'pastoral', but from an entirely different source: after WWII the US command in Japan had interned Japanese Army officers who had served in Manchuria write up a massive collection of reports on the ethnology, culture, climate and terrain of the entire region. I found the collection in a US Army library and read most of it - which included a detailed account of the Manchus and their descendants' lifestyle, culture, and economy. You just never know what you can find if you look . . .

    We are in complete agreement here, and while the difference between the steppe and the other climate/terrain was extreme, the precarious nature of ancient/classical/medieval economies and food production is also grossly underestimated and mis-represented in the 4X historical game genre, and it extended until quite late in the Industrial Era: the northern plains of North America were considered entirely unsuitable for agriculture until very late in the 19th century. In fact, until German emigrants from Russia (the 'Volga Germans' settled there at Catherine II's urging a century earlier) arrived in the Dakotas bringing seed stocks of a wheat hybrid they had developed that could ripen even in the short growing seasons of central Russia - or the American plains north of Kansas. Today it's a massive production center for grain, but that development is basically only about 150 years old.
    To be a (nearly) perfect 4x game, the constant changes to economy, food production, and available terrain/climate for various activities has to keep changing throughout the game.
    With the pressure from Humankind, we can hope that the designers of Civ VII will be taking a much harder look at all the 'standards' of the Civ franchise instead of handing us another reiteration of the Same Old Thing.

    This mis-match in population density was due to a wave of Plague preceding the Indo-European migration. See the latest edition of Scientific American (November 2020) for an article on Ancient Plagues describing the DNA of the plague which finally identified it as the 'depopulator' of the agrarian populations of Europe between about 3000 BCE and 2000 BCE. It turns out that the Black Death of the 14th century CE was the third or fourth Great Plague in Human history, and on the basis of the percentage of the afflicted population wiped out may not have even been the most lethal.
     
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  5. Codeword Iroquois

    Codeword Iroquois Warlord

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    I really am not all that familiar with Oceania, I'm afraid. Salamasina does sound like a worthy leader, from what I've read.

    Oceania is a hard region to work with for speculation. So many different island groups with overlapping traditions, including them all as one feels blobby, but one individual group makes it feel like you're leaving out others. It's little wonder that it has only been touched on recently as far as design goes.
     
  6. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    I agree. The way they designed the Maori, and them talking about why they chose them out of all the other cultures, to me means they basically thought that Oceania/Polynesia was covered in the game.

    As it stands I think really the only options for the last pack are to go with either Portugal (in every game since Civ 3), Native North America (had 2 in Civ 5 and currently just the Cree), or North Africa (not represented yet, was in civ 5 with Morocco) in that order.
     
  7. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    In addition to @Zaarin 's commitments - this is an interesting and hard question. To simply put: We don't have any nail-in-the-coffin evidence to say they are the same people, and we also don't have many nail-in-the-coffin evidence to say they are entirely unrelated.
    Spoiler :

    A lot of nomadic groups in the Central Asia have a name with a "Hun", "Hon", or "Xun" element: Xiongnu, Hu, Huns, Xionites, Hephthalites, Huna, Xwn; Chinese sources also recorded names such as Xunyu, Xianyun, Xianyu, and Xianbei, all begin with a /ɕ/ - although in Old Chinese all these Xs were very likely pronounced as a S; and speaking of S, we also have Saka, Sai, Scythians, and Sarmatians, whose names share a "Sa" or "Si" element. All these groups seemed to have a similar name, shared a similar culture (or two), speak similar languages, but whether they had more common features beyond those elements or not, we don't really know (@Zaarin might have a lot of things to add with this part).

    On the other hand, there is a detail in the Chinese records, which I think I had mention about it in this thread before - according to Chinese sources, many sub-groups and smaller tribes of the nomadic peoples would take the name of a tribe that is the strongest of them as their common name. Houhanshu 後漢書 and Weishu 魏書 explicitly said that, when Xiongnu was defeated by the Eastern Han and moved away, while Xianbei tribes began to move into the steppes, "there were still a great many of Xiongnu tribes remained [on the steppe], they all began to call themselves 'Xianbei', there fore Xianbei become stronger." Moreover, a lot of Xiongnu surnames with aristocratic origins became Xianbei surnames in the Chinese records during this era.
    Basically, although these smaller tribes were ethnically and linguistically different to each other to some extent, but they shared the same "name" and had a common leader, then they became the same "group" in the eyes of the foreign accounts.

    Therefore my personal guess is, there was an important tribe/group in the steppes whose name begins with a "Hun" or "Hon", probably a group before the Xiongnu (the earliest name with a /ɕ/ in Chinese records was "Xianyun", about 600-800 years earlier than "Xiongnu"). This tribe was so influential, that a great many nomadic groups loosely related with this tribe began to take this "Hun" name to refer to themselves, and these myriad of groups gradually evolved into Xiongnu, Huns, Xionites, Hunas, etc.

    I think this is a perfect example of how complicate the "ancient ethnics" can be, and that's why I tend to argue that an ethnical mechanism will be very hard to be implemented in the game. I would suggest having some "adaptive" trait to Eurasia nomadic civs in the future, if we really want to represent that.
     
  8. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Not a lot honestly beyond that, re:Saka, I've seen Iranian proposed as the identity of the Xiongnu, but it doesn't seem to be one of the more popular theories. The Yuezhi were certainly Iranian, as were the Wusun. It's worth cautioning, though, that similar sounding names doesn't prove anything in itself; linguistic coincidence is much more common than many people realize. Unless these various groups were Iranian (which in many cases seems dubious), I doubt the names in "Sa" and "Si" are significant as there are solid Iranian etymologies for Saka, Scythian, and Sarmatian.
     
  9. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    I mean, all the traditional Chinese sources explicitly said that Saizhong is not Xiongnu.:mischief: I think these sources did figure out there is a difference between Mongolian (all those X- tribes) and Iranian peoples.

    It seems to me that all the Eurasia steppe peoples can be roughly divided into Mongolians, Iranians, and Turkics (with the exception of Magyars? If we consider them as "steppe" nomads as well).

    Interestingly, we have all of them in one Civ game currently (Mongolians, Scythians, Ottomans, Hungarians); maybe that is kind of a success already...
     
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  10. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Yeah, Mongolian or Tungusic identities for the Xiongnu seem both the most popular and the most plausible, followed by Turkic. I highly doubt any Iranian people ever made it that far east; the eastern location of the Tocharians is already startling.

    The major ones, yeah.
     
  11. Patine

    Patine Deity

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    What about the idea of at least a Yeneisian component to the Xiongnu?
     
  12. Zaarin

    Zaarin Diplomatic Attaché to Londo Mollari

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    Might be a better question for @8housesofelixir ; I can't claim to be an expert on the Xiongnu. I know that Mongolian (or Para-Mongolic) and Tungusic are the most popular theories, followed by Turkic. I know Iranian has been proposed but is highly unlikely. And of course the proposed connection with the Huns. Beyond that I'm sure there are other theories, but I'm not familiar with them all. I'm not overly familiar with Yeniseian history.
     
  13. Inawordyes

    Inawordyes In a word: Illyria

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    Corazon Aquino of the Philippines, maybe? New civ, with a female leader, from Asia/Oceania. Only issue is that she's so recent, having only passed away in 2009
     
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  14. AsH2

    AsH2 Prince

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    Indeed.
    Spoiler End of the Neolithic :
    End of the Neolithic
    With some exceptions, population levels rose rapidly at the beginning of the Neolithic until they reached the carrying capacity.[13] This was followed by a population crash of "enormous magnitude" after 5000 BCE, with levels remaining low during the next 1,500 years.[13]

    Transition to the Copper age
    Main article: Chalcolithic Europe
    Populations began to rise after 3500 BCE, with further dips and rises occurring between 3000 and 2500 BCE but varying in date between regions.[13] Around this time is the Neolithic decline, when populations collapsed across most of Europe, possibly caused by climatic conditions, plague, or mass migration. A study of twelve European regions found most experienced boom and bust patterns and suggested an "endogenous, not climatic cause".[14] Recent archaeological evidence suggests the possibility of plague causing this population collapse, as mass graves dating from around 2900 BCE were discovered containing fragments of Yersinia pestis genetic material consistent with pneumonic plague.[15]
     
  15. 8housesofelixir

    8housesofelixir Emperor

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    I'm not linguist, but it is possible (although we are not 100% sure) that Yeniseians were part of the Xiongnu, since "Xiongnu" is an extremely heterogeneous group - or, to be precise, they were a political confederation that covers a great number of different peoples, groups, tribes, communities, etc.."Xiongnu" was just the name of their leading tribe.

    Modu Chanyu, in his letter to Emperor Wen of Han, said that after he conquered Loulan (a Tocharian city-state), Wusun (a group of Iranian nomads), and Hujie (a group of proto-Mongolian nomads),"all these countries/peoples were turned into Xiongnu", and therefore "all the People Who Draw Bows* are now merged into one (all merged into 'Xiongnu')."
    From these two lines you can probably tell that "Xiongnu" included a lot of people from different origins. (Remember how these "Xiongnu" people simply turned into "Xianbei" people when the Xianbei tribes gained the control over the steppes?)
    *引弓之民, the early Chinese name for all the steppe people, since they were skilled in archery.

    So, yeah, these people's ethnicities were fairly complex and it would be much easier for the devs to categorize them as one in a virtual boardgame (cf. "Scythians").

    Edit: For all these steppe peoples who lived near the northern borders of East Asia, I suggest Di Cosmo's
    Ancient China and Its Enemies as a good read.
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2020
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  16. 679x

    679x Warlord

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    Could you explain why we might expect a civ that has been in the British sphere of influence? I've missed a bit and I'm trying to go back through this thread to find an explanation on that but there are so many pages and I haven't found anything.
     
  17. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Probably because all the DLC cycles/ Expansions had one: Australia, Scotland, and Canada.

    I don’t think that means anything in relation to the NFP.
     
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  18. pokiehl

    pokiehl Emperor

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    Out of all the tenuous wild speculation in this thread, this one (Anglosphere) has gotta be the flimsiest.
     
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  19. Onii-chan

    Onii-chan King

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    Yeah this is very far-fetched and it's hard to think of anything that seems like a remotely likely inclusion that'd fall under that category at this point anyway. Canada and Australia were already somewhat controversial inclusions for their time but at least they are big countries in modern times. I'd be surprised if any of the remaining NFP additions followed that pattern
     
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  20. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    Now that you mention both Canada and Australia, I would argue that it is more likely they were just post colonial nations as a choice, with Scotland as another choice to not make it too many before the second expansion.

    In that case we already got the one in NFP with Gran Colombia.
     

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