[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Potworny]

Well, there are files for a second, yellower, set of clothing for Qin Shi Huang, why wouldn't Kublai get two?

 

[8housesofelixir]

Well, there are files for a second, yellower, set of clothing for Qin Shi Huang, why wouldn't Kublai get two?

Any pictures on that?

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

If Kublai having his own UU, it will probably be the Huihui Pao (the Persian-made Trebuchet he employed in the Siege of Xiangyang).

Huihui Pao is one of the most famous siege weapons in Chinese history because the sheer power of it - the Xiangyang ones easily breached the 3m thick walls of Xiangyang, which scared the city to surrender.

This would be a Great Circle of Trebuchet-ness:
China appears to have invented the Traction Trebuchet
The Traction Trebuchet moved west and is mentioned in Byzantine military texts by the end of the 6th century CE
By the end of the 11th century CE the Byzantines appear to have modified the Traction Trebuchet into a Counterweight Trebuchet,
In the next century the new machine was adopted by the Crusader States and their Arab opponents, and then the Persians, and last of all by the western Europeans (in the early 13th century)
Finally, the Mongols hire some Persian artillery experts to build and use Counterweight Trebuchets for them at Xiangyang. because they were so much more powerful than the old Traction Trebuchets they had inherited from the Chinese!

Interestingly, in both Europe and China, the Counterweight Trebuchet did not entirely replace the earlier Catapults and Traction Trebuchets, because the counterweight model was so large and heavy it had to be laboriously built on site and was very hard to re-aim against, say, moving bodies of troops - the earlier machines were kept for use against people and more ephemeral targets while the Counterweight Trebuchets battered down walls - a type of target that tends to be much easier to hit since, by nature and design, they stay in one place.
Realistically then, a Counterweight Trebuchet as either a Kublai UU or a new general Unit should probably have effect Only against walls/forts and no effect at all versus other military units . . .

As to Kolorful Kublai, all the pastoral steppe cultures tended to be as or more colorful than their settled neighbors. The permafrost-frozen Siberian Patzryk tombs, which preserved cloth, leather and other normally-perishable materials, included saddle cloths and clothing in primary reds, blues, and probably yellow (many items had faded badly over 2500 - 2700 years). The pastoral groups had a major advantage in that they were all 'middlemen' trading with numerous other groups all around them, which gave them access to a wide variety of dyestuffs from plants, animals, insects, etc from multiple types of terrain and climate.

Of course, the Greeks noted that the Scythians wore very colorful clothing, but any brightness of the colors was considerably dimmed by a heavy layer of dirt or wind-blown dust, the other ubiquitous characteristic of the steppes!

 

[8housesofelixir]

Interestingly, in both Europe and China, the Counterweight Trebuchet did not entirely replace the earlier Catapults and Traction Trebuchets, because the counterweight model was so large and heavy it had to be laboriously built on site and was very hard to re-aim against, say, moving bodies of troops - the earlier machines were kept for use against people and more ephemeral targets while the Counterweight Trebuchets battered down walls - a type of target that tends to be much easier to hit since, by nature and design, they stay in one place.

I think the limited practical situation of Trebuchets echoes with a point you said in the other Trebuchets post - there doesn't seem to be any "anti-Trebuchets" wall design. Even for Kublai, his Huihui Pao was actually a Last Resort: the Mongols were already besieging the Xiangyang Fortress for 6 years without any gain, and Kublai needed something new and powerful to do the work.

Realistically then, a Counterweight Trebuchet as either a Kublai UU or a new general Unit should probably have effect Only against walls/forts and no effect at all versus other military units . . .

Actually, during a campaign of crossing the Yangtze River (after the fall of Xiangyang), Kublai employed Huihui Pao to bombard the brown water navy of Southern Song, and it turned out pretty effective. Chinese river warships were also something that tends to be much easier to hit since they were big and slow.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Given that Europe was already represented by Gaul and Byzantium I think it is highly unlikely. A Civ from from the Pacific islands strikes me as most likely given the new Civs are moving from west to east starting from the Americas.

I find a civ from the Pacific Islands to be less likely than any other region considering we have the Maori who starts in the ocean, which would fit any other Pacific Islander civ better.

I think the packs moving from West to East has just been a coincidence.

Besides Portugal is the last missing "staple" in the series who isn't in Civ 6 yet so I doubt they would end the game without it. And I don't see Civ 6 continuing after NFP.

 

[Zaarin]

Anyway, while I got your attention, what do you guys think about Maria II? I have no idea why they went for something as non-consequential as Maria I (in Civ V), when Maria II:

She'd be a big step up from Maria I. However, I'd be a little surprised not to see a Portuguese leader from the Age of Exploration.

Besides Portugal is the last missing "staple" in the series who isn't in Civ 6 yet so I doubt they would end the game without it. And I don't see Civ 6 continuing after NFP.

Agreed. I'm 98% certain the last civ is Portugal; the remaining 2% is that it's a Native American civ simply because having only one in Civ6 feels like a step backwards from Civ5's two Native American civs. If it does end up being Portugal, I'm going to be seriously shaking my fist at Australia, Gran Colombia, and especially Canada--more than I already am.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Agreed. I'm 98% certain the last civ is Portugal; the remaining 2% is that it's a Native American civ simply because having only one in Civ6 feels like a step backwards from Civ5's two Native American civs. If it does end up being Portugal, I'm going to be seriously shaking my fist at Australia, Gran Colombia, and especially Canada--more than I already am.

Well I'm not sure it was Australia's fault.

Honestly as much as I like the idea of Scotland in the game, and Gaul making it in too, I'm not sure we needed both of them. I think one or the other as the "Celtic" representative would have been enough. Because I sure am not getting rid of Macedon.

Hey at least Native North America is doing better than North Africa/Maghreb region.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I think the limited practical situation of Trebuchets echoes with a point you said in the other Trebuchets post - there doesn't seem to be any "anti-Trebuchets" wall design. Even for Kublai, his Huihui Pao was actually a Last Resort: the Mongols were already besieging the Xiangyang Fortress for 6 years without any gain, and Kublai needed something new and powerful to do the work.



Actually, during a campaign of crossing the Yangtze River (after the fall of Xiangyang), Kublai employed Huihui Pao to bombard the brown water navy of Southern Song, and it turned out pretty effective. Chinese river warships were also something that tends to be much easier to hit since they were big and slow.

Last post on Trebuchets.

I've watched a modern replica Counterweght Trebuchet being fired, and it is marginally faster to aim and shift fire than, say, one of the cast-iron Bombards. By varying the weight of the counterweight you can change range and so rather quickly move the 'drop zone' of the Trebuchet, but only if you can be pretty sure which direction the target is moving and at what speed - like tracking a slow river boat that pretty much has to follow the river. That's still a pretty limited target effect against most military unit targets.
On the other hand, since the Bombards took anywhere from one to six hours to load, they should be strictly a Siege Weapon that only has effect against a stationary target, unless, as I've said before, your opponent was cooperative enough to stand around in front of you for half a day . . .

 

[Thenewwwguy]

g

https://twitter.com/CivGame/status/1350125598279086082?s=20

So, the message is uh...interesting, huh?

feels like they updated civ 4 kublai for the times

Given that Europe was already represented by Gaul and Byzantium I think it is highly unlikely. A Civ from from the Pacific islands strikes me as most likely given the new Civs are moving from west to east starting from the Americas.

this would be awesome, but latin america is also more east than north america (on average), so getting the Haudenosaunee wouldn’t be particularly surprising

they’re also the only way the third woman leader could get fit in from NA, or Oceania, for that matter, that I can think of, unless Hawaii led by Liliuokalani becomes a thing

 

[8housesofelixir]

feels like they updated civ 4 kublai for the times

He does very much look like the Civ IV Kublai Khan.

The problem being, that Kublai is not what IRL Kublai looked like, especially in terms of facial shape, headwear, and hairstyle.

 

[Meluhhan]

I think this is also the first time in civ we have two leaders that are close relatives.

Wasn't Maria the Mad Pedro's grandmother? If so, it's the same degree of relationship as between Genghis and Kublai.

To add to the list of close relatives appearing in the game, while not a blood relation, Catherine de' Medici was mother-in-law to Philip II for a while.

Also, if we were to include leaders appearing in different versions of the game, Chandragupta Maurya (Civ VI) - Ashoka (Civ IV) are another grandfather-grandson pair.

 

[Lord Lakely]

Philip II was also briefly married to Mary Queen of Scots, making him related to Elizabeth I through marriage.

All this political incest is just fascinating stuff, isn't it?

 

[Meluhhan]

Philip II was also briefly married to Mary Queen of Scots, making him related to Elizabeth I through marriage.

All this political incest is just fascinating stuff, isn't it?

IIRC, Philip II was married to his cousin and Elizabeth I's half sister, Mary I of England and not Mary, Queen of Scots.

 

[Inhalaattori]

I would be extremely surprised if the last Civ is not Portugal. There is clear place for naval trading Empire. Caravel is also one of the few units that doesnt have UU.

 

[Myomoto]

Why do people say we only have 1 native American civ? Maya, Mapuche, Aztecs, and Inca are not natives of the Americas?

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Why do people say we only have 1 native American civ? Maya, Mapuche, Aztecs, and Inca are not natives of the Americas?

They mean Native Americans in the North American vicinity.

 

[AtlantisAuthor]

They mean Native Americans in the North American vicinity.

Agreed. Granted we have the Cree and Poundmaker, but North America's a rather large landmass and had a slew of tribes and nations. Currently it's the most poorly represented region of the global map in Civ VI. Obviously the Central and South American nations had more technological and architectural achievements, but North America has its own storied history and key figures. I would enjoy seeing Hiawatha return but given the proximity to the Cree I think it's unlikely. I really liked Pocatello in Civ V, but Sequoia, Sitting Bull, and many others earned both notoriety and respect through their leadership, especially in the Western frontier. It's a shame we don't know more about the Anasazi or those who built the huge mounds in eastern North America; there would certainly be opportunities for unique buildings at the very least.

Has anyone at Firaxis said anything yet regarding whether there might be any content for Civ VI released beyond New Frontier? While I think we're likely approaching the end as far as new Civs are concerned (I agree that Portugal and at least one new North American Indian nation should make the cut), there are certainly many Leaders from previous Civ games that would make for excellent alternates to the existing ones. Here are just a few:

Napoleon
Julius or Augustus Caesar
Attila (Huns)
Bismarck
Kamehameha (Polynesia)
Enrico Dandolo (Venice)
Abraham Lincoln or George Washington
Boudicca (Celts)
Isabella
Maria I (Portugal)
Hiawatha (Iroquois)
Oda Nobunaga
Ramkhamhaeng (Siam)
Elizabeth

I understand that several of these Leaders/Civs have "equivalents" in Civ VI already, but I personally would love to see them made available anyway. No doubt Napoleon would play very different from Catherine de Medici. Venice would offer that unique "one-city challenge" from Civ V.

Of course there's also the glaring gaps in technological advancement where Units are currently concerned in Civ VI as well. Having no Riflemen between Musketmen and (WWI-era) Infantry, for example, or that Cold War-era B-52 Stratofortress that IN NO WAY represents "Stealth". In fact, given the proportion of military-centric Leaders in the above list and so many (apparent) Units left to add in Civ VI, it's not too hard to envision a military-themed expansion/Season Pass coming before Firaxis moves on to the next Civ entry.

No idea how much if any of this will happen, but it can't hurt to throw this out there and hope, I guess.

 

[Potworny]

Any pictures on that?

Check out these threads for more:
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-hidden-and-unused-content-of-civilization-vi.661866/
https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/find-the-hidden-firaxis-logo.627623/

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

They mean Native Americans in the North American vicinity.

Not including Mesoamerica.

Has anyone at Firaxis said anything yet regarding whether there might be any content for Civ VI released beyond New Frontier? While I think we're likely approaching the end as far as new Civs are concerned (I agree that Portugal and at least one new North American Indian nation should make the cut), there are certainly many Leaders from previous Civ games that would make for excellent alternates to the existing ones. Here are just a few:

Napoleon
Julius or Augustus Caesar
Attila (Huns)
Bismarck
Kamehameha (Polynesia)
Enrico Dandolo (Venice)
Abraham Lincoln or George Washington
Boudicca (Celts)
Isabella
Maria I (Portugal)
Hiawatha (Iroquois)
Oda Nobunaga
Ramkhamhaeng (Siam)
Elizabeth

I understand that several of these Leaders/Civs have "equivalents" in Civ VI already, but I personally would love to see them made available anyway. No doubt Napoleon would play very different from Catherine de Medici. Venice would offer that unique "one-city challenge" from Civ V.

I think either Hiawatha (Iroquois) or Maria I (Portugal) has the best chance of returning. Venice or Siam isn't happening either because they've been introduced recently as a city-state.

I'm not sure if you are suggesting Polynesia or the Celts to return because that's not happening. For Kamehameha or Boudicca to return you would need a separate Hawaii or Iceni civ, which probably aren't happening either as we've already have a Polynesian and Celtic civ.

Plus if we have to pick from past civ leaders where are my favorites Louis XIV, Maria Theresa or Ashurbanipal?
America alternate leader would be interesting if we didn't have two different Teddys. And yeah we don't need a third French leader I guess either after two leaders and a persona for one.

 

[Zaarin]

Well I'm not sure it was Australia's fault.

I mean, they're occupying a civ slot that could be held by literally anyone else, and they have the worst music in the game. I reserve the right to hold that against them.

Honestly as much as I like the idea of Scotland in the game, and Gaul making it in too, I'm not sure we needed both of them. I think one or the other as the "Celtic" representative would have been enough.

Yes, Scotland was poorly designed if they wanted it to be the "Celtic" civ and felt even more extraneous when they made it a very British Scotland alongside a very British England.

Why do people say we only have 1 native American civ? Maya, Mapuche, Aztecs, and Inca are not natives of the Americas?

In North America, "Native American" is usually used specifically to mean the indigenous people of the United States and Canada, while American Indian, Amerindian, or Indigenous Peoples of the Americas are used to refer to all the indigenous peoples. It's simply a colloquial convention.