[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I don't expect to see SEA in early DLC, and Hannibal is about 800 years too early for AoE4...So far Delhi Sultanate is the only civ likely to have elephants; I could see more space for elephants--but not too many or the Delhi Sultanate starts to lose its uniqueness.

Oh I see you are still talking about AOE4, not Civ.

 

[Capanator]

We're talking about AoE4, not Civ; I think being Indo-Aryan would likely be an argument in favor of the Chalukyas, versus the Turkic Delhi Sultanate. The point of a Southern Indian civ in this context would be that the north was mostly controlled by Turks in the Middle Ages. That being said, the Pala Empire might be another option--disadvantage being they'd be a second war elephant civ and they still wouldn't be Hindu.

I feel like your misunderstanding what I am saying, I feel generally that the 4x video game industry steal things from each other, and the fact that India was deblobbed (so far in name only) in AOE4 could lead to India being deblobbed in Civ 7

 

[Zaarin]

I feel like your misunderstanding what I am saying, I feel generally that the 4x video game industry steal things from each other, and the fact that India was deblobbed (so far in name only) in AOE4 could lead to India being deblobbed in Civ 7

You'll note that reply was not addressed to your post. Considering AoE4 is from a completely different genre than Civ, I don't think it will be a major influence to Civ7. That AoE4 is aiming to be more historical than its predecessors is simply a general trend in the market right now; you can see the same general directive in Civ6. And I stand by both my statements about AoE4: Delhi Sultanate is a stand-in for AoK's Persia; we'll see a native Indian civ later down the line.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Bohemia.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Bohemia.

sounds good to me!

 

[sonicmyst]

And I suddenly want HRE separate from Germany.

 

[DWilson]

Plus Austria! Maria Theresa can lead most of them!

 

[Thenewwwguy]

Maria Theresa leads Austria, Hungary, Germany, Italy, Romania, Bohemia, the HRE, Poland and the Netherlands in Civilization 6

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Somalia.

 

[DWilson]

Somalia.

No, I don't think she quite leads that civ... but then again, I'm no expert.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

No, I don't think she quite leads that civ... but then again, I'm no expert.

I'm just inserting random nations that could get into Civ 7 or Civ 6 if the devs want to expand Civ 6 some more.

 

[DWilson]

And I'm just joking that a prerequisite for inclusion is the eligibility of Maria Theresa as a leader. Don't mind me!

 

[Capanator]

Time for a not so detailed tin foil hat theory. Anyways, in the past two “expansions”, we know that in each one, we have had one Anatolian civ (GS Ottomans, NFP Byzantium), and one ancient fertile crescent civ (Gs Phoenicia, NFP Babylon). So, we can assume that if we were going to get another season pass, we can expect one Anatolian civ, and one Fertile crescent civ. What civ isn’t Turkic (ottomans) or Greco-Roman (Byzantium) from Anatolia that the general public actually recognizes, Hittites. Which Fertile Crescent civ that hasn’t been included yet, but should and could actually make it in, Assyria. So, IF we were to get a final frontier pass, I could expect this.

· Assyria

· Hittites

· Mainland Europe: Bohemia pls

· Mainland Europe to Maghreb: Berbers

· Native American civ: Tlingit or Haida

· Native American: I would prefer Iroquois, since we haven’t gotten two desert civ in an expansion

· Africa- Idk, Swahili (probably most likely), Mutapa or Benin are all good choices

· Asia: Tough, Nepal and Burma are likely because we haven’t gotten any city states, and if not included we will very likely have them as City states (Kathmandu and Bagan), or less likely a central Asian civ that doesn’t need Samarkand or Lahore as a city (sad Sogdian and Timurid noises), my guess would be Seljuks or maybe Kushans, and even less likely chola

· Alternate leader: Egypt please, though some maybe want Maria Theresa for Germany/Hungary.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

I think there's a base of civs and historical cultures that ought to be in every single game, even if they feel repetitive. China, some form of India, Rome, etc. The challenge is drawing where the line falls, and if designers are "de-blobbing" then striking a balance that feels like proper inclusion. (Is just Chandragupta's Maurya sufficient for an entire game's representation of India? Hard to say). My inclination is that Greece, Mongolia, Egypt, Persia, France, America, England, Maya, and others should always be included in some form, though I suspect some would disagree. I don't mind if it is one or more of Sassanid or Achaemenid Persia, pre or post Alexander Greece, solo England or perhaps a British civ instead, etc., so there are layers to the complexity. I'm curious what most of your essential lists would look like, both in who is to be included and how they ought to be represented for satisfactory participation.

While sometimes I think things like "I don't need Austria if we have Hungary" or "Khmer and Siam can rotate", and I'm sure a balance is to be considered on which Mesopotamian and nearby middle eastern civs are essential versus nice bonuses,, I'm significantly less satisified with something like a Central Asian steppe civ being an alternative rather than an addition to the Mongols or someone like Ireland or only Scotland replacing England.

I’m inclined to make a similar judgment

in an ideal world, China, Rome, England, France, Spain, Maurya, Egypt, Greece, Ottomans, Byzantines, Persia, Arabia, Mongolia, Russia, Maya, Inca, Babylon, Assyria, Japan and Chola would be series-staples.

In the tier below them (must-haves which aren’t key to the series), I would put Ethiopia, Aztecs, Haudenosaunee, Korea, America, Germany, Portugal

The tier below that (options) would be: A celtic civ, a nordic civ, a central european civ, an eastern european civ, a caucasian civ, 2-3 west african civ, a southern african civ (probsbly usually zulu), an east african civ, 3-5 indigenous american civs from across the continent, 2-3 indigenous civs from across south and central america, a caribbean civ, a portuguese post colonial civ (probably Brazil), a french post colonial civ, a spanish post colonial civ, 1-2 polynesian civs, an additional indian subcontinent civ, 2-3 central asian civs, 3-4 southeast asian civs

that gets you around 56 civs, which is a good improvement over Civ 6, but with far more regional diversity

I like the idea of figuring out which civs someone would want to see as series regulars. I'm not sure yet if I could split them into several tiers so I'm going to make things easy for myself and just say that my two tiers for my personal list of civ staples are Tier 1 which are the most important civs and Tier 2 which are not as important but should still be in all the future games since we're getting to a roster of 60 civs.

Tier 1: America, Arabia, Assyria, Carthage, China, Egypt, England, Ethiopia, France, Gaul, Greece, Haudenosaunee, Inca, India (Maurya, Gupta, Maratha), Indonesia, Japan, Khmer, Mali, Maya, Mongolia, Natchez, Norway, Ottomans, Persia, Rome, Spain, Sumeria, Tonga, Zimbabwe

Tier 2: Aztec, Babylonia, Benin, Brazil, Burma, Chola, Germany, Gurkani, Hawaii, Hungary, Kongo, Korea, Maori, Mapuche, Morocco, Muisca, Navajo, Netherlands, Nubia, Poland, Portugal, Powhatan, Russia, Siam, Swahili, Sweden, Tlingit, Zulu

I'm sure I'm missing some other important ones and that some could be argued to be in 1 instead of 2 and vice versa.

Just to add to the discussion on the different 'desert civs', perhaps the Berbers in-game would be more geared to utilizing oases while the Navajo would be more geared to Natural Wonders?

As much as I'd like a Puebloan civ and that the Hopi and Acoma would seem like the options that could most likely happen among the different Puebloan peoples (since their languages have been in commercials, online videos, etc.), the Navajo still do seem like the most realistic option and I'd argue that they wouldn't be a real disappointing option since they do have more options than just hogans at their disposal. While not quite on the same scale as earlier Puebloan cliff palaces and the like, the Navajo pueblitos are still quite impressive and show some Puebloan influence. I'd like to add that some of the Navajo painted bows, spears and clubs I've seen look quite nice so maybe an additional UU could come about from one of those for a earlier unit.

While I'm here I might as well add my own somewhat controversial hot take. I'd really like to see the Calusa in game one day but, since only a few words of their language is known and it doesn't seem like there's much hope currently to revitalize the language unless a breakthrough Spanish document is found, I'd be willing to accept either King Caalus himself speaking Spanish or having him sit magnificently in the background while one of his translators speaks Spanish to you. Definitely not ideal but I think it's worth considering.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Just to add to the discussion on the different 'desert civs', perhaps the Berbers in-game would be more geared to utilizing oases while the Navajo would be more geared to Natural Wonders?

Berbers I think make the most sense to be a desert civ. It's true that you could easily design a Navajo civ around Natural Wonders/bonus resources without needing any abilities to do with desert.

As much as I'd like a Puebloan civ and that the Hopi and Acoma would seem like the options that could most likely happen among the different Puebloan peoples (since their languages have been in commercials, online videos, etc.), the Navajo still do seem like the most realistic option and I'd argue that they wouldn't be a real disappointing option since they do have more options than just hogans at their disposal. While not quite on the same scale as earlier Puebloan cliff palaces and the like, the Navajo pueblitos are still quite impressive and show some Puebloan influence. I'd like to add that some of the Navajo painted bows, spears and clubs I've seen look quite nice so maybe an additional UU could come about from one of those for a earlier unit.

Though it's true that the Navajo did build pueblitos, I think that would make them more of a "semi Pueblo" civ which I would want to try to avoid considering the Navajo do have their own infrastructure which they could use without borrowing.
I'd rather a pueblito, or pueblo, unique infrastructure come from a Pueblo city-state which I think can be doable.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

Berbers I think make the most sense to be a desert civ. It's true that you could easily design a Navajo civ around Natural Wonders/bonus resources without needing any abilities to do with desert.


Though it's true that the Navajo did build pueblitos, I think that would make them more of a "semi Pueblo" civ which I would want to try to avoid considering the Navajo do have their own infrastructure which they could use without borrowing.
I'd rather a pueblito, or pueblo, unique infrastructure come from a Pueblo city-state which I think can be doable.

Agreed, it would obviously be a bit more random on a general map but on a TSL map the spot where the Navajo would be has a good number of natural wonders even right now!

I understand what you mean by wanting the Navajo to not feel like a "semi Pueblo" civ but I think in general that would be almost expected considering how much the Pueblo influenced the Navajo. Even more so when the Spanish returned after the Pueblo Revolt and some of the Tewa and other Puebloans fled to either the Hopi or the Navajo for protection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had thought that the Pueblo taught the Navajo how to farm in the desert, weave, and I also thought that the art of the Navajo was heavily influenced by that of the Pueblo. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying that it's grounds to simply label a Puebloan civ as Navajo through that reasoning. Just saying that there's some expected overlap given the interactions with each other. Also, when we do get a Pueblo city-state, I'd hope that its UI could be some of the full-sized cliff palaces and larger pueblos that could get different bonuses from the Navajo pueblitos.

Plus, if the Inca could have the terrace farm and the Qhapaq Ñan then perhaps it wouldn't be out of the question for the Navajo to have both the hogan and the pueblito! Out of curiosity, what other possible UI/UB/UD would be good options for the Navajo?

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I understand what you mean by wanting the Navajo to not feel like a "semi Pueblo" civ but I think in general that would be almost expected considering how much the Pueblo influenced the Navajo. Even more so when the Spanish returned after the Pueblo Revolt and some of the Tewa and other Puebloans fled to either the Hopi or the Navajo for protection. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I had thought that the Pueblo taught the Navajo how to farm in the desert, weave, and I also thought that the art of the Navajo was heavily influenced by that of the Pueblo. Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not saying that it's ground to simply label a Puebloan civ as Navajo through that reasoning. Just saying that there's some expected overlap given the interactions with each other. Also, when we do get a Pueblo city-state, I'd hope that its UI could be some of the full-sized cliff palaces and larger pueblos that could get different bonuses from the Navajo pueblitos.

You are right that the Pueblo did teach the Navajo how to farm and influenced them to not be as nomadic and hunter gatherers any more. I just think maybe adding in a pueblito as a unique infrastructure is kind of on the same page as it would be adding an Apache UU to them, considering they were more related. But that's just my opinion.

Plus, if the Inca could have the terrace farm and the Qhapaq Ñan then perhaps it wouldn't be out of the question for the Navajo to have both the hogan and the pueblito! Out of curiosity, what other possible UI/UB/UD would be good options for the Navajo?

The only other thing I could think of is maybe a unique Holy Site. They tended to do alot of religious ceremonies far away and it could be reflected in that. Of course larger ceremonial hogans were used and I can see a hogan be still be reflected in a unique Holy Site that gets more adjacency bonuses from unimproved features and natural wonders.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Shawnee

 

[Zaarin]

Too mobile until nomadic civs can be represented better.

 

[TahamiTsunami]

You are right that the Pueblo did teach the Navajo how to farm and influenced them to not be as nomadic and hunter gatherers any more. I just think maybe adding in a pueblito as a unique infrastructure is kind of on the same page as it would be adding an Apache UU to them, considering they were more related. But that's just my opinion.

No worries, I'd say that one of the best parts of being on these forums is discovering new opinions and making a case for what you believe would be fun to see!

I don't think I'd agree that a potential pueblito infrastructure would be on the same level as an Apache UU for a couple of reasons:

1. Like you said, the Navajos built and used the pueblitos themselves and I don't think their natural influence from the Pueblo should diminish what the Navajo were able to accomplish. If this influence was to be comparable to adding an Apache UU, I'd think that the pueblito would've only been built by the Pueblo. Similarly, if the Navajo had been influenced enough by the Apache to have their own similar cavalry, I don't know if we'd be arguing that the Navajo horsemen don't count as being from the Navajo.
2. Speaking of accomplishments (and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), architectural structures on the scale of the pueblitos seems to be rare north of Mesoamerica. It's one of the reasons why many of us want civs from one of the Mississippian kingdoms, Pueblo tribes, Calusa, etc. Few buildings outside of the largest homes of the NE or PNW were close. It shouldn't be the only reason to consider any of the civs I've mentioned but they do add to the consideration.
3. If we did disregard the pueblitos because of their outside influence, it seems to me that it would set a precedent that any other UI, UB, UD, etc. that had any amount of influence from another civ would also be called into question including some that I'm sure are already in the game.
4. Depending on the bonuses of course, a pueblito UI would be quite helpful especially if the in-game Navajo want to focus on say defensive wars, land grabbing, etc.
5. For any concerns regarding uniques from a Pueblo city-state or even a Hopi or Acoma civ, their pueblos would be different enough that you could provide different bonuses such increased production, population, etc. I'd like to think that having one won't necessarily guarantee the exclusion of the other.

While I disagree with an Apache UU and a pueblito UI being the same level of 'being from an outside group,' you do have a point that they are related and someone could try to argue for them being like the Shoshone with their Comanche UU from Civ 5. Did anyone with a position of power from the Shoshone or Comanche have any complaints about that or was it understandable because of their origins? I'm guessing that there wasn't much outrage since nothing seems to have been altered or changed like it was from Pueblo to Shoshone though I wonder if it was because it was a 'faceless UU' and not on the level of having a Comanche leader leading the Shoshone for example. I'm sure any outrage of the Navajo having an Apache UU wouldn't compare to say Geronimo leading the Navajo!

Ultimately, regardless of which uniques that we want the Navajo to have or not, I for one am glad that the Navajo have more options to work with for uniques rather than struggle to find even one! Glad to hear your opinion either way!

The only other thing I could think of is maybe a unique Holy Site. They tended to do alot of religious ceremonies far away and it could be reflected in that. Of course larger ceremonial hogans were used and I can see a hogan be still be reflected in a unique Holy Site that gets more adjacency bonuses from unimproved features and natural wonders.

Add it to the potential uniques list, the more the merrier!