[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Zaarin]

Tell that to Amplitude too which has Americans and Australians in Humankind, but no Canadians.

Humankind is a different game with different metrics. Australia makes more sense for HK than it does for Civ; in Civ Australia was in the game on release day...as part of the English civilization.

I'd rather switch Haiti for Canada in Civ 7, as a proper Francophone post colonial civ, which hopefully will make room for the Iroquois and other continental North American native civs.

I'd have liked Canada to look more like the Cree and be led by Samuel de Champlain. That being said, I have no opinion on postcolonial civs beyond wanting as few as possible and insisting that the few we must have be as geopolitically prominent and culturally distinct as possible.

Out of curiosity, what civ would you rather have in Australia? I personally have always felt there needs to be something in there. On my old CivV playthroughs, I typically played on Earth map and, having an empty continent where has historically lived people long before colonialism always seemed weird to me.

I don't play TSL so I'd vote for none. Australia is gratuitous, and Aboriginal Australians aren't an option for a number of reasons. Throw a city state there if the gap really needs filling (though TBH Australia is a great place to expand to for civs that start in East Asia, East Africa, or the western Americas on a real Earth map, TSL or not).

Unexpected move: America will not be in Civ VII vanilla release, but will come as a DLC.

We should be so lucky.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Humankind is a different game with different metrics. Australia makes more sense for HK than it does for Civ; in Civ Australia was in the game on release day...as part of the English civilization.

I think you're confusing the Aztecs with the Australians.

 

[Codeword Iroquois]

Hot take: Original Civs will only appear through expansions and DLC cycles. Other staples can appear in vanilla, but not those in Civ 1

 

[GenyaArikado]

That's never happening, since money. Although it'd be cool

 

[Zaarin]

I think you're confusing the Aztecs with the Australians.

To my knowledge the Aztecs were never part of the English Empire, nor are most Aztecs part of an Anglophone postcolonial civ (I'm sure a few Nahua have emigrated to the US, but they're not a major demographic).

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

To my knowledge the Aztecs were never part of the English Empire, nor are most Aztecs part of an Anglophone postcolonial civ (I'm sure a few Nahua have emigrated to the US, but they're not a major demographic).

I meant that Australia wasn't released alongside England.

 

[Zaarin]

I meant that Australia wasn't released alongside England.

My point is that Australia is part of the English civilization, not that it was gratuitously calved off into its own civilization in the base game.

 

[Leucarum]

I don't have any issue with the modern civs. Every civ is a snapshot of time so I'm fine with ones which are exclusively modern. I suspect the countries with larger populations will remain in future iterations...

 

[Zaarin]

I don't have any issue with the modern civs. Every civ is a snapshot of time so I'm fine with ones which are exclusively modern.

Civilizations and nation-states aren't the same thing, though, and most nation-states that have been included are already part of a civilization that's in the game.

I suspect the countries with larger populations will remain in future iterations...

This is the clinching point. Australia wasn't included because it's a civilization; Australia was included because Australian dollars.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

My point is that Australia is part of the English civilization, not that it was gratuitously calved off into its own civilization in the base game.

Oooh... Now that you put it that way, I see what you mean. Apologies.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

My guess is 58 civs in Civ7:
Europe (2 more than Civ6)
North America (2 more than Civ6)
South America (1 more than Civ6)
Mesoamerica/Caribbean/Central America (the same number of civs as Civ6)
East Asian (1 more than Civ6 )
Middle east (1 more than Civ6)
Africa (1 more than Civ6)
Oceania (the same number of civs as Civ6)

Those guesses can be different if they decide to split India, though.

Can we already start to speculate?

Seems like we have.
Here is my conspiracy theories:
American Staples: America, Aztec, Brazil, Inca, Maya. Returnees from previous game: Iroquois as geographically close to Canada's start. New: Argentina, Haiti, Muisca, (replaces Canada, Gran Colombia, and Mapuche), and another western "horse raider" such as Navajo/Apache or Comanche.

Central/South/East Asia Staples: China, Japan, Korea, Mongolia, India, Indonesia. Returnees: Vietnam, and either Siam or Khmer or both if Burma doesn't make it. New: Mughals (separate from India centered more around Afghanistan/Pakistan), Burma/Tibet?

Middle East: Arabia, Babylon, Carthage/Phoenicia, Persia, Ottomans. Returnees: Assyria/Sumer or both. New: Parthia and Armenia (as Scythia and Georgia replacements)?

Europe Staples: at least England, France, Germany, Greece, Russia, Rome in base game. Duh. Dutch, Byzantium, Poland, Portugal and Sweden in DLC/expansions. Maybe Spain if not in Vanilla. Returnees: Norway/Denmark for Vikings. New: Ireland (Celts), Some form of Italy, Goths (Classical Era), Franks (if Alexander can have his own civ why not Charlemagne?), Romania if Austria/Hungary don't make it.

Africa Staples: Egypt, Ethiopia (maybe Classical Era inspired over Nubia), Zulu. Returnees: Mali or Songhai, possibly Morocco. New: Berbers if no Morocco, Angola (over Kongo), something more modern instead of Ethiopia like Nigeria or South Africa?

Oceania: Australia, Maori, Hawaii/Tonga/Samoa (as the seafaring Polynesians)

I think I maybe got to about 57 so add in another wildcard somewhere for 58.

Civilizations and nation-states aren't the same thing, though, and most nation-states that have been included are already part of a civilization that's in the game.

This is the clinching point. Australia wasn't included because it's a civilization; Australia was included because Australian dollars.

I mean civilization in game just means playable faction. In the same vein maybe we shouldn't of always had America because America is just a branch of England?

If America can continuously be in the game I have no problem with Australia, Canada, and Brazil though I agree that there does need to eventually be a limit on how many.

 

[Zaarin]

I mean civilization in game just means playable faction.

Perhaps, but the term becomes rather meaningless if we don't place some limits on it (on the opposite end of the spectrum this is also why I argue against the Inuit, the Aboriginal Australians, and so forth).

In the same vein maybe we shouldn't of always had America because America is just a branch of England?

I'm actually okay with America and Brazil because I feel like they've become something different from their mother country; Americans were, in fact, already very culturally different from the English in England by the time of the Revolution. While my personal preference would be to have few or no leaders/civs more recent than the 17th century, I think there are reasonable arguments for including America and Brazil that don't apply to Australia and only apply marginally at best to Canada. Of all the civs in Civ6 I think Australia is the hardest to justify (followed very closely by Scotland in its current design, albeit not Scotland ipso facto).

 

[Linklite]

Of all the civs in Civ6 I think Australia is the hardest to justify (followed very closely by Scotland in its current design, albeit not Scotland ipso facto).

I can't agree there. I mean, Australia is pretty low in the list for inclusion, but Scotland takes the prize. What really makes the English is the British Empire. Really, the English should be renamed the British and scrap Scotland. I mean, the English didn't have redcoats before it joined with Scotland for form the UK, and yet, the English civ is very much post union. I'd much rather have the British and the Australians than the English and the Scottish. Heck, I'd be down for pointing out that technically England merged into Scotland, so using that as an excuse for getting rid of the English and just having the Scottish

As you can tell, it's a bugbear of mine that we have the Scottish and the English...

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I'm actually okay with America and Brazil because I feel like they've become something different from their mother country; Americans were, in fact, already very culturally different from the English in England by the time of the Revolution. While my personal preference would be to have few or no leaders/civs more recent than the 17th century, I think there are reasonable arguments for including America and Brazil that don't apply to Australia and only apply marginally at best to Canada. Of all the civs in Civ6 I think Australia is the hardest to justify (followed very closely by Scotland in its current design, albeit not Scotland ipso facto).

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
I see Australia as the same as Brazil. Both are respectfully the regional power of their region today (South America and Oceania). The only thing that Brazil does have over Australia is it is the only other Portuguese speaking nation, besides Portugal, to reasonably get in the game.

Plus Australia has at least hosted the Summer Olympics too which seems to mean automatic inclusion.

I can't agree there. I mean, Australia is pretty low in the list for inclusion, but Scotland takes the prize. What really makes the English is the British Empire. Really, the English should be renamed the British and scrap Scotland. I mean, the English didn't have redcoats before it joined with Scotland for form the UK, and yet, the English civ is very much post union. I'd much rather have the British and the Australians than the English and the Scottish. Heck, I'd be down for pointing out that technically England merged into Scotland, so using that as an excuse for getting rid of the English and just having the Scottish

I'd agree except at least GS made England less British with the introduction of Eleanor of Aquitaine. Though I guess it sort of made them more French.

I wouldn't mind Scotland if it was more Scottish and less British though at the same time.

 

[Linklite]

I'd agree except at least GS made England less British with the introduction of Eleanor of Aquitaine. Though I guess it sort of made them more French.

I wouldn't mind Scotland if it was more Scottish and less British though at the same time.

I mean you're right with Eleanor, but it's kind of the issue. They kind of go from French to what essentially becomes British in nature. The English aspect is pretty brief (mostly because it assumed the dominant role of the British, it largely becomes interchangeable, the results of which we see today where the English complain that they don't have a separate identity from Britain, unlike the other three home countries). I do think Eleanor is actually English (despite being French), but still, I think that civ is more British with a proto British leader more than English with a post-English leader, if that makes sense. Their civ ability only really makes sense in the context of the British Empire, not pre-union England.

Scotland...I don't even know how to fix them. Get rid of golf courses and replace it with something pre-union at least.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I mean you're right with Eleanor, but it's kind of the issue. They kind of go from French to what essentially becomes British in nature. The English aspect is pretty brief (mostly because it assumed the dominant role of the British, it largely becomes interchangeable, the results of which we see today where the English complain that they don't have a separate identity from Britain, unlike the other three home countries). I do think Eleanor is actually English (despite being French), but still, I think that civ is more British with a proto British leader more than English with a post-English leader, if that makes sense. Their civ ability only really makes sense in the context of the British Empire, not pre-union England.

True. The Sea Dog also helps balance it out with it being from Tudor England, even though it's not the greatest UU in the game. It still is definitely half and half with Eleanor, but basically a British civ with Victoria.

Scotland...I don't even know how to fix them. Get rid of golf courses and replace it with something pre-union at least.

My main problem with Scotland is actually the pre-union ability of Robert the Bruce not being good enough. They could also have given him a man at arms or pikemen UU.

The golf course is fine. Now that we have unique improvements that can be built in other civs territories, the Feitoria, I would like Scotland to be able to that with their golf course. In addition golf courses in your territory gain +1 culture for every foreign civ that has a golf course, with the culture granting tourism at flight.

I'd also redesign the Highlander by making them look less like the British regiments and let them be unlocked earlier.

 

[Leucarum]

Civilizations and nation-states aren't the same thing, though, and most nation-states that have been included are already part of a civilization that's in the game.

Well at some point a nation state would become distinctive enough to be considered its own civilization (or mixture of civilizations) so presumably it's a personal judgement call as for where the line becomes drawn...

This is the clinching point. Australia wasn't included because it's a civilization; Australia was included because Australian dollars.

And yeah, this is ultimately why we'll see them. People do enjoy playing their 'home' civ. So, maybe best to hope that civ finds good gameplay niches for them. In the case of post colonial civs I'd say they succeeded for Canada more so than Australia. The USA's design space is all over the place from iteration to iteration, but it usually makes sense. Brazil and Gran Colombia both got some relatively interesting design space. Though given current levels of deforestation Brazil's ability is pretty ironic.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

And yeah, this is ultimately why we'll see them. People do enjoy playing their 'home' civ. So, maybe best to hope that civ finds good gameplay niches for them. In the case of post colonial civs I'd say they succeeded for Canada more so than Australia. The USA's design space is all over the place from iteration to iteration, but it usually makes sense. Brazil and Gran Colombia both got some relatively interesting design space. Though given current levels of deforestation Brazil's ability is pretty ironic.

I feel the opposite. I feel that Australia overall is better designed than Canada. Sure Canada does have the tundra farming niche but that isn't really an accurate portrayal of them, unlike Australia who wants to mainly settle on the coast instead of inland until you are able to get Outback Stations and then survive in the harsh desert.

 

[Zaarin]

What really makes the English is the British Empire. Really, the English should be renamed the British and scrap Scotland.

I take the opposite stance: the English need to be made more English and less British. Bring back Lizzie, make England a culture-and-mercantile turtle civ. The problem in Civ6 is that the English are very British and the Scottish are very British and the Australians are very British and the Canadians are somewhat British and...

I think an interesting Scottish civ could be designed, but 1) it's not what we got and 2) IMO it should have been a lower priority than Ireland or even Wales. The problem with Scotland is that it's always been a hodgepodge of Gaelic, English, Norse, and Norman culture that doesn't really have a clear niche to fill.

Well at some point a nation state would become distinctive enough to be considered its own civilization (or mixture of civilizations) so presumably it's a personal judgement call as for where the line becomes drawn...

Sure--Well, maybe. Nation-states are such a novel concept that I wouldn't be too quick to make sweeping statements about them. They can develop into their own civilizations, let's say. By my judgment, Australia isn't there by a longshot, and Canada's an edge case.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Sure--Well, maybe. Nation-states are such a novel concept that I wouldn't be too quick to make sweeping statements about them. They can develop into their own civilizations, let's say. By my judgment, Australia isn't there by a longshot, and Canada's an edge case.

Well it could have been New Zealand with an Aboriginal civ for Oceania.
Instead we got Australia and the Maori. In that case I'm glad it was at least the latter.