[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

Expansionism suits Assyria better than Babylon. Babylon's empires tended to be short lived and unstable. If anything, I'd see Babylon being set up to have a super-charged capital, sort of the opposite of Maya.
Don't worry. I agree on that one.
Depending on the leader expansionist could work like Nebuchadnezzar or even Hammurabi.
But yes playing a super-charged built up capital would be an ideal playstyle for them. Though as I was pointing out now that the Maya seem to be the tall science civ I wonder what they would do for Babylon? Unless it means we are getting Assyria instead which of course I would perfectly fine if that was the case.
 
This is clearly not "subscribing to their YouTube channel". Don't be dense. It is tied very specifically to the New Frontier Pass; or if I've got that wrong, maybe the Civ.com website. Of course they know that keen fans atm are all about the pass and not the Civ website; so misleading and unhelpful if that was their intent.

View attachment 555686

Not being dense. You can go to, for example, Khmer reveal and see there's the same button, with the image being reference link. It has been like this quite long.

 
The obvservatory discussion in interesting because, while mesoamerican obvservatories aren't a direct comparison to the western idea of one (to study all celestial bodies), they were built with the express purpose of tracking specific celestial bodies, most importanlty Venus, the Moon and the Sun, the obvservatory at Chichen does have a lot of very specific slits built into it to keep track of Venus for example. And this interest in tracking venus wasn't unique to the Mayans, there's similar "tracking" slabs and structures in Teotihuacan and Xochicalco, tho the Mayan buildings are the most well known and best preserved. In the case of the Mayans not only did they have buildings dedicated to this tracking of celestial bodies, but also took a keen interest in most of their sacred buildings to allign or have a notieable interplay with astral phenomenon, like for example the "serpents shadow" that only appears during the equinox in Chichen, (and there are many structures build like this in the Mayan world)

So just wanted to point out that a mesoamerican civ (the Mayans in this case) getting an obvservatory district is really not that much of a stretch by any means, I'll just imagine their university and library also align with the sun during the equinox. :P
 
What ruined the Great United Gran Colombia?
It was mostly an issue of regionalism. When the ruling class of each region of the Republic of Colombia (Gran Colombia) realised that they could govern themselves independently, many in Venezuela and Ecuador began to think that having the capital in Bogotá just meant changing the "colonial overlord" from Madrid to Bogotá, so they began to form groups to achieve independence from Gran Colombia. Moreover, Bogotá could not effectively control all the territory, in part because Bolívar left the government a bit unattended to keep fighting the Spanish in Perú and Bolivia, and the regional governments began to have even more power under the federalism of the nation. Santander, the vice-president that ruled while Bolívar was away fighting, seemed to prefer the idea of more autonomous regions as well, which then led to independent republics, while Bolívar wanted a more centralized government centred on him. Bolívar's ideas would go on to form the modern day Conservative Party of Colombia and Santander's ideas would create the modern day Liberal Party of Colombia.

So there were similar Apartheid system in Colombia that exists contemporarily with Republic of South Africa?
What I meant by what I said is that before the Colombian Constitution of 1991, the older Constitution said that all Colombians, in order to be considered part of the "Colombian Nation" must share a common Spanish culture, language and Catholic religion, basically just including white and mestizo Colombians of Spanish heritage. This meant that the indigenous people, protestant immigrants and Afro-Colombians where not allowed to vote or hold public positions. Foreign Catholics could acquire citizenship if they learned Spanish. An Apartheid-like system never existed in Colombia, aside from denying the possibility to vote to the groups I mentioned, the nation established laws and rights that applied to all of its citizens and, even though racism existed, it never became as strong or legally sanctioned as in South Africa or the USA, though natives and afro-Colombians still had worse living conditions. But in 1936 the old Constitution was modified and all male citizens were allowed to vote, regardless of ethnic and cultural background, even though the Constitution still stated that Colombia was a Spanish Catholic country. In 1954 women were allowed to vote. What I meant by the 1991 date is that it was only until the 1991 New Constitution that all ethnic groups in Colombia where legally recognized as part of the "Colombian Nation" and their languages, territories and particular rights were legally recognised.

Is this one of many reasons of fifty years Colombian Civil War?
Not really, since the late 19th century, despite what the Constitution said, most people in Colombia began to regard themselves more as Colombians than as mestizo, Spaniard, afro-Colombian, etc., most native groups did kept their languages and identities and Universal Suffrage was, at least in theory, guaranteed for everyone since 1936 for all men of all ethnicities and included women in 1954, way before the Civil War began. The main issue that caused the Civil War was the power struggle between the Conservative Party (based in Bolívar's ideas) and the Liberal Party (based on Santander's ideas). Since Bolívar's death all the presidents of Colombia were from these two parties and the appearance of any other party with a different ideology was not permitted. This, together with the vast amounts of lands controlled by a few owners of the haciendas and large scale farms in the country, prompted the appearance of communist peasant groups backed by the Soviet Union that wanted to overthrow the US backed government of Colombia. The Civil War in Colombia was basically a proxy war of the Cold War.

did the Pablo Escobar's rampage that went as far as attacking Supreme Court of Colombia an impetus towards the movement to draft a new Colombian Constitution of 1991 that ratifies Universal Suffrage and ended this Apartheid around the same time ZAR ended it??

Universal Suffrage for all ethnicities existed since 1936 and for woman since 1954, not since the Constitution of 1991. The communist groups, which had lost a great part of their ideology by the second half of the war, took advantage of the disorder of the war to began trading with drugs, as did Pablo Escobar, and both did atrocious acts for the duration of the war which is why they were declared as terrorist organisations by most western countries. It has never been confirmed if Pablo Escobar participated in the attack to the Supreme Court, but some people think it was likely he did, together with other terrorist groups. However, the Constitution of 1991 was indeed a response from the country to create a more egalitarian legal framework for the nation. It recognised the existence of various other political parties and gave more rights and autonomy to natives, afro-Colombians and guaranteed more laboral rights for peasants and workers, all of this in an effort to avoid a similar conflict in the future. This, together with the Peace agreement signed in 2016, formally ended the war, though various insurgent groups still exist, the country is much more safer nowadays than it used to be back in the 1970s and 1980s, the worst part of the conflict.

I think I won't be replying more to my original post because I've said it all and the purpose of this thread is to discuss the new additions to the game, so I won't extend myself anymore on explaining Colombian history. (Again, sorry for any bias or imprecise information I could have said)
 
I'm not going to say that the Maya are designed to be generic because there are bonuses about them that fit, but it is an interesting point that you brought up earlier.

The Maya are designed to be a tall science Civ, maybe more so than Korea, not unlike Civ 5 Babylon even with unique archers.

At least this might mean if Babylon returns, it won't be so focused on being a tall science Civ and maybe take a more of a culture/expansionist approach.

When I say 'generic', I mean that they're basically a pile of stat bonuses rather than a civ really designed to emulate the Maya. They have two linked restrictions - a preference for cities near the capital, and freedom from coasts and freshwater that allow them the flexibility to place cities optimally - that clearly exist because they promote a gameplay style that people who want to min-max them will enjoy, but neither makes any sense for the Maya as a society (the city production bonus/malus would be a better fit for the Aztecs, with their centralised cities in the valley and a lot of unwilling tributary states outside it, than for a collection of cities each with its own central ruler).
 
Sarah Darney.
Thanks! Seeing as how the torch is passing to her in the intros and the diplomatic victory, I think she would be a solid replacement.
She does a much better job with the foreign words than Bean does. His intros seriously make me cringe sometimes. :crazyeye:

I think you two are discussing two different girls, no? The one who gets the torch for, for example, Diplomatic Victory, is "Sean Bean's Daughter" from cinematics and I think that's who Omega meant. Sarah is the one who voiced the YouTube reveals.
 
Thanks for this detailed correction - I think my main misunderstanding was in not appreciating that the earlier Venezuelan projects had failed (as well as not being familiar with the existence of Cundinamarca as a originally independent entity). I had taken an admittedly simplistic view of an region whose post-colonial history is outside my area in tracing a timeline from the foundation of a Venezuelan state to that of Gran Colombia that you've helpfully rebutted in detail.

I do agree that Latin American history is extremely confusing, perhaps one of the most confusing ones. But yeah, Gran Colombia can be seen as a project by both Venezuelans and New Granadans ("modern day Colombians") to create a single nation and they regarded themselves both simple as Colombians back then, to which later Ecuador and Panamá joined and even the Caribbean colonies of Cuba, Puerto Rico and Santo Domingo showed interest in joining.

I am glad I could help explaining a bit the history of what happened back then, though I won't be posting more of these long history related posts, because the purpose of this thread if to discuss the new features in the game. You guys can send me a message or something if you've got more questions.
 
It was mostly an issue of regionalism. When the ruling class of each region of the Republic of Colombia (Gran Colombia) realised that they could govern themselves independently, many in Venezuela and Ecuador began to think that having the capital in Bogotá just meant changing the "colonial overlord" from Madrid to Bogotá, so they began to form groups to achieve independence from Gran Colombia. Moreover, Bogotá could not effectively control all the territory, in part because Bolívar left the government a bit unattended to keep fighting the Spanish in Perú and Bolivia, and the regional governments began to have even more power under the federalism of the nation. Santander, the vice-president that ruled while Bolívar was away fighting, seemed to prefer the idea of more autonomous regions as well, which then led to independent republics, while Bolívar wanted a more centralized government centred on him. Bolívar's ideas would go on to form the modern day Conservative Party of Colombia and Santander's ideas would create the modern day Liberal Party of Colombia.


What I meant by what I said is that before the Colombian Constitution of 1991, the older Constitution said that all Colombians, in order to be considered part of the "Colombian Nation" must share a common Spanish culture, language and Catholic religion, basically just including white and mestizo Colombians of Spanish heritage. This meant that the indigenous people, protestant immigrants and Afro-Colombians where not allowed to vote or hold public positions. Foreign Catholics could acquire citizenship if they learned Spanish. An Apartheid-like system never existed in Colombia, aside from denying the possibility to vote to the groups I mentioned, the nation established laws and rights that applied to all of its citizens and, even though racism existed, it never became as strong or legally sanctioned as in South Africa or the USA, though natives and afro-Colombians still had worse living conditions. But in 1936 the old Constitution was modified and all male citizens were allowed to vote, regardless of ethnic and cultural background, even though the Constitution still stated that Colombia was a Spanish Catholic country. In 1954 women were allowed to vote. What I meant by the 1991 date is that it was only until the 1991 New Constitution that all ethnic groups in Colombia where legally recognized as part of the "Colombian Nation" and their languages, territories and particular rights were legally recognised.


Not really, since the late 19th century, despite what the Constitution said, most people in Colombia began to regard themselves more as Colombians than as mestizo, Spaniard, afro-Colombian, etc., most native groups did kept their languages and identities and Universal Suffrage was, at least in theory, guaranteed for everyone since 1936 for all men of all ethnicities and included women in 1954, way before the Civil War began. The main issue that caused the Civil War was the power struggle between the Conservative Party (based in Bolívar's ideas) and the Liberal Party (based on Santander's ideas). Since Bolívar's death all the presidents of Colombia were from these two parties and the appearance of any other party with a different ideology was not permitted. This, together with the vast amounts of lands controlled by a few owners of the haciendas and large scale farms in the country, prompted the appearance of communist peasant groups backed by the Soviet Union that wanted to overthrow the US backed government of Colombia. The Civil War in Colombia was basically a proxy war of the Cold War.



Universal Suffrage for all ethnicities existed since 1936 and for woman since 1954, not since the Constitution of 1991. The communist groups, which had lost a great part of their ideology by the second half of the war, took advantage of the disorder of the war to began trading with drugs, as did Pablo Escobar, and both did atrocious acts for the duration of the war which is why they were declared as terrorist organisations by most western countries. It has never been confirmed if Pablo Escobar participated in the attack to the Supreme Court, but some people think it was likely he did, together with other terrorist groups. However, the Constitution of 1991 was indeed a response from the country to create a more egalitarian legal framework for the nation. It recognised the existence of various other political parties and gave more rights and autonomy to natives, afro-Colombians and guaranteed more laboral rights for peasants and workers, all of this in an effort to avoid a similar conflict in the future. This, together with the Peace agreement signed in 2016, formally ended the war, though various insurgent groups still exist, the country is much more safer nowadays than it used to be back in the 1970s and 1980s, the worst part of the conflict.

I think I won't be replying more to my original post because I've said it all and the purpose of this thread is to discuss the new additions to the game, so I won't extend myself anymore on explaining Colombian history. (Again, sorry for any bias or imprecise information I could have said)
Great insights! Thank you.
 
The obvservatory discussion in interesting because, while mesoamerican obvservatories aren't a direct comparison to the western idea of one (to study all celestial bodies), they were built with the express purpose of tracking specific celestial bodies, most importanlty Venus, the Moon and the Sun, the obvservatory at Chichen does have a lot of very specific slits built into it to keep track of Venus for example. And this interest in tracking venus wasn't unique to the Mayans, there's similar "tracking" slabs and structures in Teotihuacan and Xochicalco, tho the Mayan buildings are the most well known and best preserved. In the case of the Mayans not only did they have buildings dedicated to this tracking of celestial bodies, but also took a keen interest in most of their sacred buildings to allign or have a notieable interplay with astral phenomenon, like for example the "serpents shadow" that only appears during the equinox in Chichen, (and there are many structures build like this in the Mayan world)

So just wanted to point out that a mesoamerican civ (the Mayans in this case) getting an obvservatory district is really not that much of a stretch by any means, I'll just imagine their university and library also align with the sun during the equinox. :p
Speaking of which, I've read that it's hypothesized that the Maya observed the phases of Venus long before Galileo. (Similarly a Chinese astronomer may have made a naked-eye observation of Ganymede, though there's a lot of debate whether that's actually humanly possible.)

I think you two are discussing two different girls, no? The one who gets the torch for, for example, Diplomatic Victory, is "Sean Bean's Daughter" from cinematics and I think that's who Omega meant. Sarah is the one who voiced the YouTube reveals.
Ah. IMDb says that's Natasha Loring.
 
I am incredibly excited and hyped and judging by the flurry of activity here most other users are too.
And for your sake, I'm glad. I wish I could be as well, but there are just too many things about the announcement that rub me the wrong way, so it just makes me more anxious than anything else.
  • The lack of a DLL release is outright unacceptable, alienates modders, and hard caps this game's potential at a level below where earlier entries ultimately ended up
  • Pretty much everything about Persona packs bothers me, from their use as a FOMO-heavy marketing ultimatum (if you don't buy the entire pass, you're missing out on gameplay mechanics) to their actual implementation in general (hey let's fill up the leader lineup with dupes.)
  • My main issue with this game has never been "it doesn't have enough mechanics", but "these game mechanics need a lot of rebalancing and reintegration with each other", which I'm not optimistic the pass can/will do anything about considering its a la carte nature. The patch notes will make or break my confidence on how well the season pass will handle this.
  • More of a personal issue, but I've never been super fond of the more "fantastic" aspects of this series. I'm not quite as hard about this as some others -- I can tolerate the GDRs (although I don't like them), and I can sort of live with religious combat (if your god can't smite people are they really worth praying to? RV has bigger problems anyhow), but Soothsayers and the Apocalypse feel too "out there" even for me, so I'd probably just disable them. If this is the mode they're choosing to sell the pass on, I'm a little hesitant to invest without seeing the later ones.
  • Broadly, the nature of a pass means that I'm going to be waiting another year for an expansion's worth of content, or to even know what's in the expansion. This would be fine if it was hot off the heels of Gathering Storm, but because I've already waited over a year for more content, I'm not really content to wait several more months to make a more "informed" decision on how I feel about the pass. Which means I'm judging it more harshly based on the information available to me, out of which the only things I really care for are "it exists" and "the civ choices are good, at least".
The potentially recycled animations are a cute cherry on top of all of this, but honestly the least of my concerns, because I have animations disabled anyway and could not remotely care less about how detailed they are. If anything I'm more bothered by the UD having super-jarring building contrast than anything they are/aren't doing with Lady Six Flags.
 
My main issue with this game has never been "it doesn't have enough mechanics", but "these game mechanics need a lot of rebalancing and reintegration with each other", which I'm not optimistic the pass can/will do anything about considering its a la carte nature. The patch notes will make or break my confidence on how well the season pass will handle this.

I'm exactly with you on this point. I wasn't really that bothered before, liking that they are adding more content which can then be integrated and tweaked by modders once the DLL is released.

But now it's looking increasingly likely that the DLL release is never going to be happen, i'm just left relying entirely on Firaxis on making the game i'm looking for, and i have the sneaking suspicion that their priorities for the game are different than mine. It's going to be so incredibly frustrating knowing that all the pieces are there, but since most of them are locked there is nothing I can do about it to make it into what i want.

I was very impressed with the post-GS patches however and if the patches we are going to be getting during NF are as in-depth as those, then i still have some high hopes.

The AI has been very slowly getting better as well. I'm hoping after another year of work being put into it, it will be in a good position to provide interesting games for me even if it won't be perfect. If there is a second season pass after this one then we can be looking at two more years being put into it. After which i would think it should be in a good place, at-least for me.
 
Speaking of which, I've read that it's hypothesized that the Maya observed the phases of Venus long before Galileo. (Similarly a Chinese astronomer may have made a naked-eye observation of Ganymede, though there's a lot of debate whether that's actually humanly possible.)

iirc ancient indian astronomers found a lot of celestial bodies before europeans as well.


And for your sake, I'm glad. I wish I could be as well, but there are just too many things about the announcement that rub me the wrong way, so it just makes me more anxious than anything else.
  • The lack of a DLL release is outright unacceptable, alienates modders, and hard caps this game's potential at a level below where earlier entries ultimately ended up
  • Pretty much everything about Persona packs bothers me, from their use as a FOMO-heavy marketing ultimatum (if you don't buy the entire pass, you're missing out on gameplay mechanics) to their actual implementation in general (hey let's fill up the leader lineup with dupes.)
  • My main issue with this game has never been "it doesn't have enough mechanics", but "these game mechanics need a lot of rebalancing and reintegration with each other", which I'm not optimistic the pass can/will do anything about considering its a la carte nature. The patch notes will make or break my confidence on how well the season pass will handle this.
  • More of a personal issue, but I've never been super fond of the more "fantastic" aspects of this series. I'm not quite as hard about this as some others -- I can tolerate the GDRs (although I don't like them), and I can sort of live with religious combat (if your god can't smite people are they really worth praying to? RV has bigger problems anyhow), but Soothsayers and the Apocalypse feel too "out there" even for me, so I'd probably just disable them. If this is the mode they're choosing to sell the pass on, I'm a little hesitant to invest without seeing the later ones.
  • Broadly, the nature of a pass means that I'm going to be waiting another year for an expansion's worth of content, or to even know what's in the expansion. This would be fine if it was hot off the heels of Gathering Storm, but because I've already waited over a year for more content, I'm not really content to wait several more months to make a more "informed" decision on how I feel about the pass. Which means I'm judging it more harshly based on the information available to me, out of which the only things I really care for are "it exists" and "the civ choices are good, at least".
The potentially recycled animations are a cute cherry on top of all of this, but honestly the least of my concerns, because I have animations disabled anyway and could not remotely care less about how detailed they are. If anything I'm more bothered by the UD having super-jarring building contrast than anything they are/aren't doing with Lady Six Flags.

keep in mind that the reused animation is probably just one animation as far as we know right now, and it’s understandable considering that the leaders are motion captured and that’s a lot harder to do when you don’t have the ability to be motion capturing.

the apocalypse game mode is completely optional and definitely not meant to be a part of main play, just an option to spice up some games

the constant patching and rebalancing over the next year gives me hope that they’ll fix some of the more basic errors and nerf the broken civ’s

considering pok is a modder and is still excited for it despite the lack of dll means that it’s a concern that doesn’t ruin the expansion for him at least, if not most modders. I’m still convinced that they’ll release it after New Frontier and want to keep the game easy to update and not a headache for modders after each update and game fix.

in regards to the personas, yeah, i agree that they probably should’ve not been done and preferably left out, but who cares. Most of us were going to buy the whole thing anyway and it’s cheaper to do so in a pack than in individual dlc packages.

also, lady ‘Six flags?
 
She also has a British accent as opposed to Sarah.
I assumed it was fake, but a quick Google search says she's English.

iirc ancient indian astronomers found a lot of celestial bodies before europeans as well.
Astronomy wasn't much of a thing in Europe until the Renaissance. Greek astronomy is pretty much entirely based on Egyptian and Babylonian astronomy. The most important European contributions to the field prior to Copernicus and Bayer were almost purely mathematical rather than observational--with the exception Ptolemy, whose Almagest was invaluable (but still deeply rooted in Babylonian astronomy). (Another fun little fact: Uranus is easily visible to the naked eye in dark or semi-dark skies and was doubtless observed many times before Herschel discovered it: it simply moves too slowly to be identified as a planet and is too dim to stand out as a remarkable celestial object. Galileo is also believed to have observed Neptune without recognizing it for what it was.)
 
But now it's looking increasingly likely that the DLL release is never going to be happen, i'm just left relying entirely on Firaxis on making the game i'm looking for, and i have the sneaking suspicion that their priorities for the game are different than mine. It's going to be so incredibly frustrating knowing that all the pieces are there, but since most of them are locked there is nothing I can do about it to make it into what i want.
Welcome to the Hell I'm living in since October 2016.

Spoiler :
Have a beer with me my friend in misery.


Spoiler :
Sorry that it's warm, no freezing source planned at this time.
 
keep in mind that the reused animation is probably just one animation as far as we know right now, and it’s understandable considering that the leaders are motion captured and that’s a lot harder to do when you don’t have the ability to be motion capturing.

I thought the leaders were animated.

I know that the developers create mockup videos where they imitate the leader's movements, but those certainly do not count as motion captures (they don't seem particularly difficult or vital either).
 
I thought the leaders were animated.

I know that the developers create mockup videos where they imitate the leader's movements, but those certainly do not count as motion captures (they don't seem particularly difficult or vital either).

I know Kupe was mo-capped. They brought in a Maori dude to do the motions. I don't know if they've done that with the other leaders or not.
 
I know Kupe was mo-capped. They brought in a Maori dude to do the motions. I don't know if they've done that with the other leaders or not.
right my assumption was that the case for most if not all civs
 
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