[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[pokiehl]

Speed. Land units are slowed down due to embarkment/disembarkment. This could be very significant from the Industrial era onward to move units around. Of course, it's entirely map dependent. Trade routes could perhaps gain gold output to each bridge it crosses. Also Spy missions which can sabotage bridges, reducing your gold output and unit movement.

Embarked unit slowdown is so minor if we're talking about getting across one tile or two tiles of water and bridges extending beyond that would look silly. Bridges would be completely superfluous IMO.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

- Apothecary (Medieval Era): +1 Amenity. Reduces Spread of Pandemic (Pandemic Mode);
- Hospital (Industrial Era): ...

Yes and maybe making them regional effect buildings like Apothecary reduces the spread of the disease from 4 tiles away and Hospital reduce the spread 6 tiles away.

 

[AntSou]

Embarked unit slowdown is so minor if we're talking about getting across one tile or two tiles of water and bridges extending beyond that would look silly. Bridges would be completely superfluous IMO.

They're also very fragile when embarked. A bridge protects you from being melee attacked by naval units and offer better protection against ranged damage. Also, no penalty from amphibious attack since it counts as land.

 

[pokiehl]

They're also very fragile when embarked. A bridge protects you from being melee attacked by naval units and offer better protection against ranged damage. Also, no penalty from amphibious attack since it counts as land.

I understand. These are extremely fringe cases that have never impacted any game I've played personally.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

After some thought, I am predicting the three new civs are, in rough order of priority:

* Timurids
* Vietnam
* Italy/Bulgaria

I'm really hoping this isn't the end, though, because we would still have room in a fourth season pack for really strong concepts like:

* Navajo/Apache
* Burma
* Italy/Bulgaria
* Oman/Swahili

The returning civs are harder to predict. I think Portugal is a fair bet, despite feeling conceptually shut out by Spain, England, and the Dutch. The others all feel like they have qualifiers:

* Byzantium - competing with Bulgaria, could be a Roman alternate.
* Babylon - kind of obviated by Sumeria, should really be released as a pair with Assyria if at all.
* Morocco - deserves to come back, but between the Ottomans, Mali, and Portugal would struggle to find design space.
* Siam - Khmer is serving as a placeholder and Vietnam and Burma would add more; but if we could cram all three in I think the region deserves the attention.
* Denmark - Margaret would be great and chronologically distinct from Harald and Kristina; but not much to offer mechanically to justify a third Scandinavian civ; could easily be sacrifices for the Saami.
* Iroquois - Canada fills this spot on the TSL and other NA regions would likely be prioritized before the Iroquois were added.
* Austria - vicariously represented by Hungary. Pretty unnecessary except to add another female leader.

We will definitely see some of these in some form, it's just difficult to discern which obstacles are more overcomeable.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

After some thought, I am predicting the three new civs are, in rough order of priority:

* Timurids
* Vietnam
* Italy/Bulgaria

Is there any particular reason why you think the Timurids are considered a priority? I think that Scythia covers that area pretty well so I'm not sure there is a need for another nomadic civ from Central Asia. At least that's what I think. I'd put the Navajo/Apache there instead. Besides Timur is a Great General right now who replaced Genghis Khan in R&F so I don't know if they want to replace him again.

It's hard to say which Civs will but there is a possibility that they had an idea of the Civs that would eventually make it so the later city-states that replaced a previous one might not get in.
Seoul into Babylon (Even got a ramped up new suzerain bonus)
Amsterdam into Antioch-Byzantium (Then again Byzantines might not even need Antioch)
Stockholm into Bologna-Italy
Toronto into Mexico City-Mexico (Doubt Mexico is coming anyway)

Lisbon is from the base game so I think it does make Portugal more likely. I hope my theory is wrong though because I want Italy.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Is there any particular reason why you think the Timurids are considered a priority? I think that Scythia covers that area pretty well so I'm not sure there is a need for another nomadic civ from Central Asia. At least that's what I think. I'd put the Navajo/Apache there instead. Besides Timur is a Great General right now who replaced Genghis Khan in R&F so I don't know if they want to replace him again.

It's a combination of several reasons.

1. Players really want a Gurkhani civ. It consistently is in the top of request lists, usually the Mughals but the Timurids get a fair amount of attention as well.
2. In a game that seems to be wanting to fill large culturally related gaps on the map, we don't really have a civ representing the "stans." Persia doesn't really cover that, and the fact that we have Kabul representing the Durrani means there could still be some "larger" empire they want to fill that region. And, coincidentally, we still don't have a Samarkand CS.
3. The Mughals seem more complicated to implement. Yes, they have a convenient female leader in Nur Jahan, but they also have a lion icon that could be easily confused with Ethiopia. Also, the way India was implemented begs that they be blobbed into India, especially with the stepwell as a UI. A counterexample for why a separate Mughal civ would be awkward is if we got a third India leader from the Chola; why would the Chola be "India" but not the Mughals?
4. The Timurids kind of function as a spiritual predecessor for the Mughals in the same way Phoenicia vicariously represents Carthage or the Maori kind of represent the rest of Polynesia. The Timurids pull a lot more conceptual weight because they occupy a distinct region while simultaneously nodding to other important civs in the region.
5. Tamerlane would be, on average, easier to design than an Akbar. He's practically a cartoon, like the anti-Bolivar. Not a huge factor but still there.

On balance I just see the Timurids checking a lot more boxes; they could still have a strong cultural bent like the Mughals would, maybe even with some nods to the Mughals, while still fleshing out the game more thoroughly.

EDIT: Yes, we could have an Afghani empire or the Sikh Confederacy, but neither really "covers" the region and feels more like a CS, hence Kabul. Plus they just aren't as resonant and easily designed. I think for more finely divided cultural regions of the world the devs prefer to pick a broad-reaching historical empire rather than try to go through the pains of sensitively representing each distinct polity.

It's hard to say which Civs will but there is a possibility that they had an idea of the Civs that would eventually make it so the later city-states that replaced a previous one might not get in.
Seoul into Babylon (Even got a ramped up new suzerain bonus)
Amsterdam into Antioch-Byzantium (Then again Byzantines might not even need Antioch)
Stockholm into Bologna-Italy
Toronto into Mexico City-Mexico (Doubt Mexico is coming anyway)

Lisbon is from the base game so I think it does make Portugal more likely. I hope my theory is wrong though because I want Italy.

This too, I forgot about the new CS. I'm not sure exactly what Antioch is intended to represent, and we could always still have some softer versions of Italy, but I do think that Babylon is pretty unlikely.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I like the idea of a Bridge but don't both districts come with buildings? What buildings would a Bridge District have? I guess technically the new buildings don't have to coincide with the new district now that I think about it.

Not sure about an espionage district but if it comes with Secret Societies I guess it makes sense. I'd like a Health District. Maybe vanilla version it could give housing bonuses but do something different for a pandemic game mode.

canals don’t have buildings, why would bridges have to?

 

[AntSou]

canals don’t have buildings, why would bridges have to?

Each DLC which adds a district also adds two buildings, so it's likely, although not certain, that the new buildings are for the new districts, which makes a Bridge district unlikely.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

2. In a game that seems to be wanting to fill large culturally related gaps on the map, we don't really have a civ representing the "stans." Persia doesn't really cover that, and the fact that we have Kabul representing the Durrani means there could still be some "larger" empire they want to fill that region. And, coincidentally, we still don't have a Samarkand CS.

My point was I see Scythia being included to represent the region. The Massagetae tribe, which Tomyris belonged to, was located in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. She starts east of the "Caspian Sea" on all the TSL maps as well.

4. The Timurids kind of function as a spiritual predecessor for the Mughals in the same way Phoenicia vicariously represents Carthage or the Maori kind of represent the rest of Polynesia. The Timurids pull a lot more conceptual weight because they occupy a distinct region while simultaneously nodding to other important civs in the region.

I see it the opposite as the Timurids as a spiritual ancestor of the Mongols along with the Golden Horde. As much as people want the Mughals, I still ultimately see it as a part of the history of India and I see India as a representation of the whole subcontinent at least from the Mauryan Dynasty on because Mohenjo-Daro is a city-state.

canals don’t have buildings, why would bridges have to?

They don't. I even mention it afterward. I was commenting that we are getting new buildings with the district but we don't know if the buildings go in the district.

Each DLC which adds a district also adds two buildings, so it's likely, although not certain, that the new buildings are for the new districts, which makes a Bridge district unlikely.

Maybe each side can get a toll booth?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

My point was I see Scythia being included to represent the region. The Massagetae tribe, which Tomyris belonged to, was located in Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan and Kazakhstan. She starts east of the "Caspian Sea" on all the TSL maps as well.

True Scythia slightly overlaps with Uzbekistan, but I largely see Scythia as covering the Eurasian steppes, which includes Ukraine. It definitely doesn't represent the southern stans. So while it might overlap a tad with a Timurid TSL point, it overall represents a different regional heritage. You're not wrong here, but I still think the distinction between Scythia and Timurids is stronger than between India and the Mughals.

I see it the opposite as the Timurids as a spiritual ancestor of the Mongols along with the Golden Horde. As much as people want the Mughals, I still ultimately see it as a part of the history of India and I see India as a representation of the whole subcontinent at least from the Mauryan Dynasty on because Mohenjo-Daro is a city-state.

Again, I think we are in agreement, but I think there is more distinction between the Mongols and the Timurids versus India and the Mughals. My point isn't really that one is better than the other, just that I highly suspect the region will be filled based on popularity polls, and the Timurids seem the best candidate.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

I see it the opposite as the Timurids as a spiritual ancestor of the Mongols along with the Golden Horde. As much as people want the Mughals, I still ultimately see it as a part of the history of India and I see India as a representation of the whole subcontinent at least from the Mauryan Dynasty on because Mohenjo-Daro is a city-state.

How are the timurids the ancestors of the golden horde or the mongolia? they came afterwards.

Also, they’re turkic peoples, not mongol in ethnicity. the timurids were certainly not direct successors to the mongols.

Meanwhile, Babur, a direct descendent of Tamerlane founded the mughals, making them much more directly related to the mughals, although the mughals would make sense as alt leaders to india than their own empire for this current iteration of the game.

Therefore, the Timurids have a good chance of being in civ, and i’m hoping that they will be

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

How are the timurids the ancestors of the golden horde or the mongolia? they came afterwards.

Also, they’re turkic peoples, not mongol in ethnicity. the timurids were certainly not direct successors to the mongols.

Yes I got that backwards. Mongols did come before them. I'm not going to pretend I'm a history over Central Asia but I was under the impression that it was considered a Mongol state in origin (as well as Turkic) and therefore was one of the successor states. If not, I guess I am wrong.

Still I was just curious and I just personally don't feel like we need another Civ Central Asian nomadic steppe, as there are other areas I personally want, but we'll see.

 

[SammyKhalifa]

Also, they’re turkic peoples, not mongol in ethnicity. the timurids were certainly not direct successors to the mongols.

If Timor wasn't a direct descendent of chingiz Khan he certainly claimed to be.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

If Timor wasn't a direct descendent of chingiz Khan he certainly claimed to be.

he claimed to be, but he likely wasn’t a direct descendent or a member of the royal family in any capacity

 

[SammyKhalifa]

he claimed to be, but he likely wasn’t a direct descendent or a member of the royal family in any capacity

I was certainly not a history major, but in college I took a history class (inspired by playing CIV) called Chingiz Khan and the Mongols." Two of the last chapters before the end of the semester were about Timur and later Babur (who would be a very interesting leader BTW). They were related more tangentially (like through an in-law or something), but Timur also married into it to a little of that sweet, sweet Khan legimitacy. I think I'd consider them a significant offshoot of the original Khans but not direct. I do think it's a mistake to say they're not part of the Mongol Empire because they weren't Mongol ethincally--by the end most of the empire wasn't, and this was generations later.

Anyhow, if forced to choose I'd rather Timur be a Mongol alt leader rather than his own civ. Still I think you're right in that I'd consider them significant footnotes in the Mongol story rather than the main one

 

[XX36789]

- Health Quarter (Medieval Era):

What about this instead:

Medical Pavilion
+1 great person point per turn in adjacent districts
+0.5 science and housing per adjacent district
Special medical units can be trained in this district to combat Plagues. (Requires Apothecary building)
Special projects can be performed by this district to prevent Plagues. (Requires Hospital building)
Citizens in Cities with this District are 50% less likely to die from Plague effects. Goes down by 2% per Citizen.

 

[Kimiimaro]

With the flag of the Timurid Empire being this, finding a unique symbol for their empire would be easy... Though, I like to imagine their map colour could be inspired by it as well

 

[XX36789]

Don't forget their flag had tassles, which absplutely must be incorporated into their icon.

 

[SirMediocrity]

From what I understand, the Massagetae were only Scythian in the broadest sense of the word.

There are several layers of Scythian cultures/tribes. The most boiled-down term of what a Scythian is would be a certain tribe from Ukraine. A slightly wider definition would include the other tribes in the area, and the broadest definition would include several other Eurasian steppe cultures (such as the Saka, Sarmatians, and Massagetae).

Let's be honest: Scythia is a huge blob civ, as their leader can barely even be considered Scythian.