[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[PhoenicianGold]

Of course I wouldn't mind thins like porcelain but as you say it's not like porcelain is at all "unique" to China and I wouldn't consider it a unique manufactured luxury if anyone could eventually gain access to it.

To be fair, many UIs: the open air museum, the golf course, the electronics factory, the film studio, the hockey rink, the hacienda, the carnival, the tlachti, the pyramids, the sphinx, the lavra, the baths and thermal baths, the mission, etc. etc. were either created by other cultures and/or adopted by other cultures.

Civ's design seems to be trying to find uniques that show some exemplary aspects of civs, not necessary things which were exclusive to them. So if a civ was renowned for initiating or monopolizing a particular luxury good for quite some time, like @Zaarin suggested Tyrian purple or Chinese porcelain, then I think it's in line with the overall design philosophy.

The downside is that other civs might have limited or no access to certain luxuries, but in a game where most luxuries are only superficially different I don't see that as a problem. If anything it would make a rather boring luxuries system more interesting.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

To be fair, many UIs: the open air museum, the golf course, the electronics factory, the film studio, the hockey rink, the hacienda, the carnival, the tlachti, the pyramids, the sphinx, the lavra, the baths and thermal baths, the mission, etc. etc. were either created by other cultures and/or adopted by other cultures.

Civ's design seems to be trying to find uniques that show some exemplary aspects of civs, not necessary things which were exclusive to them. So if a civ was renowned for initiating or monopolizing a particular luxury good for quite some time, like @Zaarin suggested Tyrian purple or Chinese porcelain, then I think it's in line with the overall design philosophy.

The downside is that other civs might have limited or no access to certain luxuries, but in a game where most luxuries are only superficially different I don't see that as a problem. If anything it would make a rather boring luxuries system more interesting.

I agree with what you are saying. I don't know if I would use the term "unique" when describing those types of luxuries in the game, especially if there is a possibility that other civs could not only obtain them, but produce them as well.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I agree with what you are saying. I don't know if I would use the term "unique" when describing those types of luxuries in the game, especially if there is a possibility that other civs could not only obtain them, but produce them as well.

What I'm saying is why not make some luxuries exclusive to a single civ and call them uniques? Are the other civs really that inconvenienced by not having access to Tyrian purple except through trade? Are any of them inconvenienced by not being able to build a film studio?

We already have a system where somewhat universal structures are limited to specific civs...I don't see how it's any more disbelief-breaking to do the same thing with certain resources, especially in the case of luxuries which:

1) are not as regionally wide spread as bonus resources typically.
2) are not as necessary for tech advancement like strategic resources.
3) are presently not very deep or well differentiated beyond aesthetics,
4) could certainly stand to be given more specific luxury abilities to make them more exciting than simply bonus resources.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

What I'm saying is why not make some luxuries exclusive to a single civ and call them uniques? Are the other civs really that inconvenienced by not having access to Tyrian purple except through trade? Are any of them inconvenienced by not being able to build a film studio?

I agree with this as I said previously. I probably wouldn't give every civ access to a unique luxury resource but some such as Phoenicia with Tyrian Purple would benefit from it and even Japan with manufactured "electronics" luxury resources produced by the Electronics Factory.
In that instance I would argue maybe America's Film Studio should be able to produce a special Great Work of Film, but that's a different subject.

I was only addressing the idea that if other civs would eventually have access to produce a "unique" luxury resource in the game to me I wouldn't use the name "unique" to describe them.

 

[Zaarin]

Are any of them inconvenienced by not being able to build a film studio?

Actually I'd argue America is inconvenienced by having the film studio.

I was only addressing the idea that if other civs would eventually have access to produce a "unique" luxury resource in the game to me I wouldn't use the name "unique" to describe them.

If everybody has a unique luxury, nobody has a unique luxury.

 

[Thenewwwguy]

All the other ones are fine but Iran? Doesn’t that fold into Persia?

Historically in the western world Iran refers to the Islamic era in Persian History while Persia refers to the pre-islamic periods. It’s a tenuous and unclear distinction, and I believe Iran was endonyms in their own right even for pre-islamic Persia, but separating them as separate civs would be acceptable (especially since the Persian civ ability wouldn’t make much sense for Islamic Iran)

Yeah, the problem with getting a second Persian civ is that it's called "Persia." And I suspect, like China, having a singular civ is an appeal to Iranian pride, despite it spanning several long and varying empires. But that also doesn't discount the possibility of a second leader I suppose (even though I kind of view Alexander as representing the greek-ish Persian empires).

While Iran does today consider itself an extension of the Achaemenid empire, it isn’t the type of thing which would offend the Iranian diaspora (I say iranian diaspora bcs embargo’s among other things would mean there wouldn’t be a Civ player base in Iran anyway). Iranians freely recognize the distinction between the pre-islamic and islamic periods.

 

[Zaarin]

I believe Iran was endonyms in their own right even for pre-islamic Persia

It was. Persia comes from the Greek rendering of Pars, the home province of the Achaemenids, but as I outlined above the Persians have always called their homeland "the country of the Aryans." I agree, though, that we could easily have a second civ called "Iran."

Iranians freely recognize the distinction between the pre-islamic and islamic periods.

Agreed. In fact, many are very pleased to consider both Zoroastrianism and the Church of the East as part of their historical heritage. The shah referred to them as a national treasure of Iran.

 

[notNamed]

Historically in the western world Iran refers to the Islamic era in Persian History while Persia refers to the pre-islamic periods...

It's always been "Persia" in the west. Up until the point that Iran itself started asking to be called Iran in international cycles. This only happened after WW2.
So no, there is no historic distinction of this sort in the western world. It's a distinction in video games and movies because Iran is an icky word in the USA and "Persia" just sells more. In historical texts, it's all Persia and when it comes to scholarship, you're going to be either studying Achaemenid Iran or Islamic Persia. Either, or. You don't mix the two. Hence why there's Encyclopaedia Iranica but also institutions like The British Institute of Persian Studies, both of these covering the whole history of the region.
That is, to the best of my knowledge. If someone specifically dealing with Iranology/Persialogy has a different view, I'd be happy to hear it out.

Also, on the margo of there being no Iranian Civ fans. There are. You can still get most video games in Iran. The issue is from the other side. That is, as a company, you can't market and sell it to them. So it's either going to be all pirated or imported copies.

 

[agonistes]

At least, not if you are over about 2 years old. When babies are apparently babbling to themselves, they are actually practicing every possible sound that the human voice can produce. When they start actually pronouncing recognizable word-sounds, though, they have focused on those human vocals that they are hearing. So, any human baby can learn any human language, but they 'learn' to ignore, and therefore largely lose the ability to pronounce, sounds that they don't hear as babies/children.
This is one of the few things from my one linguistics course that I have no trouble remembering!

Theory disproven!

Just step on some legos barefoot in the dark. I pronounce all kinds of things.

 

[Jeppetto]

Theory disproven!

Just step on some legos barefoot in the dark. I pronounce all kinds of things.

You speak language so obscure it's frowned upon by entire societies.

 

[Zaarin]

Theory disproven!

Just step on some legos barefoot in the dark. I pronounce all kinds of things.

Remember, no speaking in tongues without an interpreter.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Theory disproven!

Just step on some legos barefoot in the dark. I pronounce all kinds of things.

You accidentally summon the Lord of Dread from the Hollow Plane.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

You accidentally summon the Lord of Dread from the Hollow Plane.

Actually, I usually summon a thousand winged monkeys to track down the inventor of Legos in whatever plane he may be and do Unspeakable Things to him.

Winged Monkeys are very good at that, I understand.

 

[AaronTBD]

Actually, I usually summon a thousand winged monkeys to track down the inventor of Legos in whatever plane he may be and do Unspeakable Things to him.

Winged Monkeys are very good at that, I understand.

Here He is! Though he's kind of dead already. so the best living one to go after is his grandson.

 

[Bojmir]

Newbie here but..... why couldn't they make a pirate civilization, maybe call it the Pirate Round lead by Henry Morgan? They have to settle on coasts but can create cities on Coastal and Ocean tiles. They would have a passive that modifies water tiles within 3 tiles of the city center based on if the center is on land or water. Additionally, they are always at war with other players but Grievances generate no modifiers against them. They gain population and units by converting Barbarians and all military units have a "Recruit" action option to secure enemy player units (50% probability of success). All land military units would have -5 defense to compensate. Their special unit would be a Flibustier, a unit with equivalent attack/defense on land and sea and has +8 Attack during a Golden Age and no resource reqs. Their building would be the Booty Hold and replace the Commercial District and would award an large % of gold each time a unit pillaged an enemy tile, bonus gold to internal trade routes (to compensate for lack of international trade routes), and 1 Amenity for every 10 tiles pillaged.

I should open a psychic phone service.

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Yet again, please get back to the thread topic.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Starina]

I want to comment on the possibility of adding Finland and its leader Mannerheim to the game:

Finland is probably a good idea as a civilization, especially as another civilization capable of effectively settling in the tundra (and maybe in the snow!). This is a very young state, of which there are so few in the game (I mean a unique unit / building)
As a Russian, I am categorically against Mennerheim. Categorically. And although I don't even live in the city of St. Petersburg.
Let me remind you that Mannerheim was Nazi accomplices and took an active part in the Siege of Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) from the north. Residents of the city know and remember this very well. And therefore, the attempt to install a memorial plaque in the city in 2016 caused the effect of an exploding bomb (comparable only to the proposal to reburial Lenin's body). After public outcry, lawsuits and vandalism, the board was dismantled.
Yes, he was a tsarist general, yes, a prominent and powerful Finnish political and military leader. But if he is added to the game and despite his services to tsarist Russia, it will inevitably cause the anger of Russian gamers, and even more so gamers from St. Petersburg

thanks

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I want to comment on the possibility of adding Finland and its leader Mannerheim to the game:

Finland is probably a good idea as a civilization, especially as another civilization capable of effectively settling in the tundra (and maybe in the snow!). This is a very young state, of which there are so few in the game (I mean a unique unit / building)
As a Russian, I am categorically against Mennerheim. Categorically. And although I don't even live in the city of St. Petersburg.
Let me remind you that Mannerheim was Nazi accomplices and took an active part in the Siege of Leningrad (now St. Petersburg) from the north. Residents of the city know and remember this very well. And therefore, the attempt to install a memorial plaque in the city in 2016 caused the effect of an exploding bomb (comparable only to the proposal to reburial Lenin's body). After public outcry, lawsuits and vandalism, the board was dismantled.
Yes, he was a tsarist general, yes, a prominent and powerful Finnish political and military leader. But if he is added to the game and despite his services to tsarist Russia, it will inevitably cause the anger of Russian gamers, and even more so gamers from St. Petersburg

thanks

This addresses a more general problem with any historical game: near-contemporary (within Living Memory) States and Leaders are inevitably gong to be controversial. All the arguments vis-a-vis Mannerheim and St Petersburg/Russia could be equally made in regard to Stalin or Zhukov/Konev/Rokossovskii (to mention only the best known outside Russia) and the Soviet Union vis-a-vis Poland, Rumania, Hungary, Bulgaria - or Finland. I am not arguing that any argument in any case is more or less compelling, I am just saying that the wars and actions of the twentieth century left a lot of bad memories and those memories are still very fresh in a lot of countries. In some cases, to the point of Law: any game that includes the Nazi swastika symbol cannot legally be sold in Germany, for instance, no matter how historical or accurate the symbol might be in the gaming context. And, frankly, putting the USSR's hammer and sickle on a box wold cause a lot of 'knee jerk' negative reactions among Americans who lived through the 1960s to 1990s.

It is mildly amusing to me as a historian that Leaders who are safely far back in time are largely acceptable regardless of their actions. So, Basil II can be sold in Bulgaria, Caesar in Gaul/France, and Napoleon in Russia without too many consequences. William T. Sherman, on the other hand, will not sell well as part of any game in Georgia or South Carolina, nor George Custer (to take two American examples) on any Native American Reservation west of the Mississippi River!

 

[notNamed]

It is mildly amusing to me as a historian that Leaders who are safely far back in time are largely acceptable regardless of their actions. So, Basil II can be sold in Bulgaria, Caesar in Gaul/France, and Napoleon in Russia without too many consequences. William T. Sherman, on the other hand, will not sell well as part of any game in Georgia or South Carolina, nor George Custer (to take two American examples) on any Native American Reservation west of the Mississippi River!

Remember the times when the world laughed at Germany for not being able to have any WW2 German faction/campaign or mere violence in their games? When Stalin led Russia, Mao led China and Kim Il-Sung was a famous general for Koreans? Pepperidge farm remembers. If we're not doing Hitler, Mao or Stalin because of the contemporary distaste to depicting them, we should dish this out fairly and equally not throw in random other nazis, dictators and so on we simply happen to be more sympathetic towards thanks to their other efforts and possible achievements. Within reason, of course.

Anyway, OTP. Very OTP.
You folks should be suggesting some thematically fitting Vietnamese units which aren't VietCong instead and yes, VietMing is cheating.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I want to comment on the possibility of adding Finland and its leader Mannerheim to the game:

I'd rather see Finland represented as a city-state personally.

You folks should be suggesting some thematically fitting Vietnamese units which aren't VietCong instead and yes, VietMing is cheating.

My vote has always been for the Mong Dong which would basically be similar to the Turtle Ship from Civ 5, which we don't currently have an equivalent yet for this game.