[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Wielki Hegemon]

Besides an opera house would best be saved for an Italy civ, or a universal building in the Theater Square, not an EC. And the uhlan was Polish-Lithuanian in origin.

In fact, uhlan was a Tatar in origin and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth adopted it.
Opera is not unique Austro-Hungarian and I agree it should be a rather universal building but Wiener Kaffeehaus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house is very unique and distinct and would be a great UB or UI for Austria. This Austrian coffeehouse culture has left a permanent mark in all former Austro-Hungarian Cities like Cracow, which is famous in Poland for its coffee house life.

 

[Luxerne]

If we get an Austrian coffee house, I wonder what it would replace. Maybe it could be the first unique building that doesn't replace another one. It could just be a special city center building that Austria could build for extra yields and bonuses, presumably toward great people generation.

 

[ehecatzin]

Did a very quick sketch of what Erendira leading the Purepecha could look like, part inspired by a Mexican movie about her, with a bit of PG13...because really she should be topless.

As I mentioned before, the Purepecha not being in civ is a lot of wasted potential, they were the leading power in western Mexico by the time of the Spanish conquest, unlike the Aztecs they led a much more centralized state capable of decisively beating the Aztecs back multiple times in open battle, the fact their bronze working production at the time was kicking up certainly helped.

Like the Maya, the Purepecha language and culture is still alive and well, so finding a native speaker shouldn't be a problem for Firaxis. (and yes female leader to top it all off)

Spoiler :

was bored...might do 8 Deer Jaguar Claw later.

 

[Narcisse]

In fact, uhlan was a Tatar in origin and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth adopted it.
Opera is not unique Austro-Hungarian and I agree it should be a rather universal building but Wiener Kaffeehaus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house is very unique and distinct and would be a great UB or UI for Austria. This Austrian coffeehouse culture has left a permanent mark in all former Austro-Hungarian Cities like Cracow, which is famous in Poland for its coffee house life.

tbf, coffeehouse are not that unique either. Yeah, there is some small distinct things related to the Viennese coffee house, but if you take a look to the global history of coffeehouse ... we could find such similar distinctions into the Opera History of the related and diverse cultures.
As european, it's not really the first country which come to my mind when we speak about the culture of coffee and coffeehouse

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

In fact, uhlan was a Tatar in origin and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth adopted it.
Opera is not unique Austro-Hungarian and I agree it should be a rather universal building but Wiener Kaffeehaus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house is very unique and distinct and would be a great UB or UI for Austria. This Austrian coffeehouse culture has left a permanent mark in all former Austro-Hungarian Cities like Cracow, which is famous in Poland for its coffee house life.

Even though I'd rather them not get a general opera house I would rather it represented as a unique theater square district called Wiener Klassik, or the First_Viennese_School.
Coffeehouses first originated in the Islamic world so to me it would make more sense as a unique building for Arabia. Austria got introduced to coffee by the Ottomans anyway.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

In fact, uhlan was a Tatar in origin and Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth adopted it.
Opera is not unique Austro-Hungarian and I agree it should be a rather universal building but Wiener Kaffeehaus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_coffee_house is very unique and distinct and would be a great UB or UI for Austria. This Austrian coffeehouse culture has left a permanent mark in all former Austro-Hungarian Cities like Cracow, which is famous in Poland for its coffee house life.

The Coffeehouse, both in England in the 18th century and in Austria, had both a Cultural and a Political impact - the cultural I think, far more in Austria than England, but the Political-Intellectual ferment in both. The Cultural impact would suggest a Theater District UB, but perhaps a better indicator of the centrality of the Coffeehouse would be to make it a City Center building, or a Theater District building that gets Adjacency Bonuses from being next to the City Center, a Neighborhood, or any Wonder that attracts population (Hermitage, Bolshoi, any Temple or church structure, etc) - wherever people congregate will enhance the Coffeehouse impact.
Unfortunately, including the Political/Intellectual ferment factor realistically would make the Coffeehouse reduce Loyalty, and it will never get built by any sane player. Perhaps a better impact would be to increase the Great Person points from any Adjacent District/Building/Wonder, which would better show both an In-game and historical effect.

 

[Hellenism Salesman]

Did a very quick sketch of what Erendira leading the Purepecha could look like, part inspired by a Mexican movie about her, with a bit of PG13...because really she should be topless.

As I mentioned before, the Purepecha not being in civ is a lot of wasted potential, they were the leading power in western Mexico by the time of the Spanish conquest, unlike the Aztecs they led a much more centralized state capable of decisively beating the Aztecs back multiple times in open battle, the fact their bronze working production at the time was kicking up certainly helped.

Like the Maya, the Purepecha language and culture is still alive and well, so finding a native speaker shouldn't be a problem for Firaxis. (and yes female leader to top it all off)

Spoiler :

View attachment 587460

was bored...might do 8 Deer Jaguar Claw later.

For a quick sketch, that's really good- I could easily her fitting right in with the other leaders, style-wise. Are you an artist?

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Even though I'd rather them not get a general opera house I would rather it represented as a unique theater square district called Wiener Klassik, or the First_Viennese_School.
Coffeehouses first originated in the Islamic world so to me it would make more sense as a unique building for Arabia. Austria got introduced to coffee by the Ottomans anyway.

But the coffee house is not all about drinking coffee but its culture, way of life, society, place of political and intellectual ferment Boris Gudenuf has mentioned. The mesoamerican ballcourts are not just another place people play a ball game, British pubs are not the first places in history where people go for a drink, and Hungarians are the not first people in history who went to public bath Austrians didn't invent the practice of drinking coffee. They have created a unique culture around it and Wiener Kaffehaus is its great material symbol. And what is a better choice for a unique building than the one that symbolizes its culture? An argument with Islamic origins of coffeehouses is completely missed here.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But the coffee house is not all about drinking coffee but its culture, way of life, society, place of political and intellectual ferment Boris Gudenuf has mentioned. The mesoamerican ballcourts are not just another place people play a ball game, British pubs are not the first places in history where people go for a drink, and Hungarians are the not first people in history who went to public bath Austrians didn't invent the practice of drinking coffee. They have created a unique culture around it and Wiener Kaffehaus is its great material symbol. And what is a better choice for a unique building than the one that symbolizes its culture? An argument with Islamic origins of coffeehouses is completely missed here.

All that happened in the Islamic world too. The cultural and political gatherings were not only limited to Europe.

It's not that the idea of a coffeehouse for Austria is a horrible idea, but it was already done before and I'd like to see something different. But to me the first thing when I think of Austrian culture is Vienna being the home of classical music, so the idea of a theater square representing that to me would be more interesting.

 

[Narcisse]

The argument about Islamic origins is rather interesting, coffeehouses were apparently place of cultures and politics, and were called "schools of wisdom".
Personally I think than saying than "coffeehouse is a better choice because it's more unique to Austrian than Operahaus" is not really a strong argument. Both are simply decent choices, and depend a lot if the coffeehouse or operahouse are already represented somewhere else in the game.
I could imagine an Austrian summer palace as a decent pick too, to represent their gardens, architectures and ballroom.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

The argument about Islamic origins is rather interesting, coffeehouses were apparently place of cultures and politics, and were called "schools of wisdom".
Personally I think than saying than "coffeehouse is a better choice because it's more unique to Austrian than Operahaus" is not really a strong argument. Both are simply decent choices, and depend a lot if the coffeehouse or operahouse are already represented somewhere else in the game.
I could imagine an Austrian summer palace as a decent pick too, to represent their gardens, architectures and ballroom.

That's also why I ignored using the generic term Opera House and went with the idea of something sounding more Austrian, Wiener Klasssik (Viennese School/Viennese Classical Era), leaving the role of an Opera House building for Italy or a generic building.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

All that happened in the Islamic world too. The cultural and political gatherings were not only limited to Europe.

This is really a strange conclusion. Of cause, they were not. But what is your point here? We are talking about what building would capture the spirit of a Civilization in the best way and in my opinion Wiener Kaffeehaus is doing a good job there.

Personally I think than saying than "coffeehouse is a better choice because it's more unique to Austrian than Operahaus" is not really a strong argument. Both are simply decent choices, and depend a lot if the coffeehouse or operahouse are already represented somewhere else in the game.

Operahaus would also be a good pick. I just think that Austrian opera and culture around it is much more similar to French Opera than Austrian Kaffeehaus to French Cafe if you know what I mean. just my subjective opinion.

 

[Narcisse]

Operahaus would also be a good pick. I just think that Austrian opera and culture around it is much more similar to French Opera than Austrian Kaffeehaus to French Cafe if you know what I mean. just my subjective opinion.

I get it

Well, the italian culture about coffee houses is different from Austria, but it's interesting and sort of emblematic, imagine the mindblow if Italy got the coffee house and Austria the opera house

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

This is really a strange conclusion. Of cause, they were not. But what is your point here? We are talking about what building would capture the spirit of a Civilization in the best way and in my opinion Wiener Kaffeehaus is doing a good job there.

Not really sure why it's strange. I was just pointing out that the idea of "coffeehouses" started in the Islamic world and ended up spreading to Austria through the Ottoman Empire. From Austria it spread to the rest of Europe.
I guess in my mind I don't see how the idea of how an Austrian coffeehouse is more unique than a coffeehouse of another civilization considering they served similar functions to all the other places that had them. That is one my problems with Austrian's portrayal in Civ 5 along with the Hussar UU.
To me other than Maria Theresa, it didn't capture the feeling of being very Austrian in design, personally.

Of course Arabia and the Ottomans are already in the game and do not have a coffeehouse UB, so of course if one would show up Austria could get it. But it wouldn't necessarily be my first choice for their unique infrastructure. Maybe my second choice considering the Ski Resort already exists.

 

[Abaxial]

1) I still keep coming back to the reality that building on VI more instead of moving to VII makes a lot of sense. I struggle to think of how they could release a new base game that a) covered most of the basic mechanics of VI and its expacks, b) introduced enough new mechanics that weren't already included as game modes in NFP, and c) promised enough potential new features in the future that didn't already exist in the completed VI game. Yes, they could streamline a few things, but I think they would need a radical paradigm shift in the entire format of the game to justify jumping off VI.

I quite agree. If Civ 7 is to be Civ 7 and not just a modded Civ 6, it must have some totally new feature, just as Civ 5 differed from 4 with hexes instead of squares, and Civ 6 introduced districts. So what might Civ 7 feature? My suggestions for making Civ 7 radically different are these:

1. Civ on a sphere.
Civilisation has always taken place on a cylindrical map projection, where no account is taken of the fact that east-west distances vary according to latitude. A Civ that took account of the spherical earth would be a novelty, and I am sure it is do-able. Would annoy the Flat Earth brigade.

2. Hexes within hexes
Or tiles within tiles if you prefer. With districts as they are, a city can be ridiculously spread out over thousands of kilometres. It would be possible for Civ 7 to operate on two map scales. What you see in Civ 6 would be the strategic map, but you could zoom in to any hex for the tactical view, which might be, say, ten hexes across. Citiy districts would be constructed on the tactical map, but only occupy one hex on the strategic map. Combat would take place on the tactical map as in a game like Fallen Enchantress.

3. Vassals
A problem with Civ 6 often alluded to (and more or less all 4X games) is that the endgame can be monotonous, long after it is clear that the player has won. In chess, it is considered bad manners not to resign when it's obvious that you are losing. Can this be worked into Civ 7? I suggest that any civ that falls too far behind may request vassalisation. Scrap all the various victory conditions from Civ 6 - the player wins once all other civs are his/her vassal.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I quite agree. If Civ 7 is to be Civ 7 and not just a modded Civ 6, it must have some totally new feature, just as Civ 5 differed from 4 with hexes instead of squares, and Civ 6 introduced districts. So what might Civ 7 feature? My suggestions for making Civ 7 radically different are these:

1. Civ on a sphere.
Civilisation has always taken place on a cylindrical map projection, where no account is taken of the fact that east-west distances vary according to latitude. A Civ that took account of the spherical earth would be a novelty, and I am sure it is do-able. Would annoy the Flat Earth brigade.

2. Hexes within hexes
Or tiles within tiles if you prefer. With districts as they are, a city can be ridiculously spread out over thousands of kilometres. It would be possible for Civ 7 to operate on two map scales. What you see in Civ 6 would be the strategic map, but you could zoom in to any hex for the tactical view, which might be, say, ten hexes across. Citiy districts would be constructed on the tactical map, but only occupy one hex on the strategic map. Combat would take place on the tactical map as in a game like Fallen Enchantress.

3. Vassals
A problem with Civ 6 often alluded to (and more or less all 4X games) is that the endgame can be monotonous, long after it is clear that the player has won. In chess, it is considered bad manners not to resign when it's obvious that you are losing. Can this be worked into Civ 7? I suggest that any civ that falls too far behind may request vassalisation. Scrap all the various victory conditions from Civ 6 - the player wins once all other civs are his/her vassal.

I can definitely see number 2 happening. I thought of something similar but instead of different maps I suggested that the districts and wonders could be constructed inside the "city center" and you could see them when you go into a city screen.

Vassals can come back but I don't think they'd give up all other victory conditions, especially the "peaceful" ones such as the space race. I don't think anybody here believes the Earth is flat but I don't see the need for a sphere unless you can traverse the polar regions/ice in game.

 

[ehecatzin]

For a quick sketch, that's really good- I could easily her fitting right in with the other leaders, style-wise. Are you an artist?

Thanks! and yes, animator hence the rough line work

I imagine that if Firaxis chooses to do Purepecha, we could expect a lot more feathers on her design, I guess It makes her look mesoamerican for the average audience.

but

Most Purepecha depictions and references we have actually show a very plain clothing style, and practical weapons, as opposed to the bombastic uniforms of the Aztecs, I would love to see Erendira be a hard contrast to both Moctezuma and Lady Six Sky in design, they could probably lean more in the Bronze jewelry as opposed to the usual feathers and jade.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

I get it

Well, the italian culture about coffee houses is different from Austria, but it's interesting and sort of emblematic, imagine the mindblow if Italy got the coffee house and Austria the opera house

Or get both as a Trentino Southern Tirol Civ

Not really sure why it's strange. I was just pointing out that the idea of "coffeehouses" started in the Islamic world and ended up spreading to Austria through the Ottoman Empire. From Austria it spread to the rest of Europe.

Strange, because If you would follow that logic hamburger is not a part of American culture because it was invented by Germans in Hamburg. The fact idea of coffeehouses started in Arabic World doesn't mean Austria did not create a unique culture around it and Koffeehaus is not a good pick for their UB/UI. As I said it is not all about a literal place where coffee is serving, but a place that was some sort of institution. Besides, it was not only a coffee that was served in Wiener Kaffeehaus. It was also a confectionery.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Not really sure why it's strange. I was just pointing out that the idea of "coffeehouses" started in the Islamic world and ended up spreading to Austria through the Ottoman Empire. From Austria it spread to the rest of Europe.
I guess in my mind I don't see how the idea of how an Austrian coffeehouse is more unique than a coffeehouse of another civilization considering they served similar functions to all the other places that had them. That is one my problems with Austrian's portrayal in Civ 5 along with the Hussar UU.
To me other than Maria Theresa, it didn't capture the feeling of being very Austrian in design, personally.

Uniques aren't necessarily always what a civ did first, but what it did best or most, or most innovatively. In the case of both the opera and coffee houses, Austria was kind of a launching point for musical and philosophical movements in Europe. Now, we can argue whether a European phenomenon is enough to justify granting a civ a unique when, as you observed, opera originated in Italy and coffee houses in Turkey, but the game has already decided that the line is a little fuzzy. Sweden has a lot of open air museums, but it wasn't the first country to make one. Canada didn't invent hockey. Etc.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Uniques aren't necessarily always what a civ did first, but what it did best or most, or most innovatively. In the case of both the opera and coffee houses, Austria was kind of a launching point for musical and philosophical movements in Europe. Now, we can argue whether a European phenomenon is enough to justify granting a civ a unique when, as you observed, opera originated in Italy and coffee houses in Turkey, but the game has already decided that the line is a little fuzzy. Sweden has a lot of open air museums, but it wasn't the first country to make one. Canada didn't invent hockey. Etc.

I know uniques aren't always the case of something a civ did first or unique to them.

I'm not arguing that the coffeehouse is necessarily a bad choice for Austria but I would put it on the same level of a Thanh for Vietnam, or Palgum for Babylon, as in not my first choice for a unique infrastructure.
Sure hockey might have not been invented in Canada but the sport of Ice Hockey certainly was.