[NFP] Civilization VI: Possible New Civilizations Thread

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

I agree with the sentiment but I don't think "Worthiness" is a thing in Civ, rr at least it's very outweighed by boardroom decisions. Why include a country with 1000+ years of history when you can make a Texan civ with a Bud Light unique resource and make 10+ times more money?

Though I appreciate the shoutout Bud Light isn't a Texas thing. The headquarters of the brewing company are located in Missouri.
Maybe bluebonnets instead.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

Of course it's true, but the fact is that civs are represented as a simplified version of what they truly are, exacerbing clichés and making them the identity of the Civ.
You say the Mayans won't be a tall civ forever, but France is the cultural powerhouse since... well, forever I feel, while completely ignoring that France has been one of the most populous kingdom of Europe AND the most important military player of EUrope for centuries, while culturally speaking, except for managing to impose french as a lingua franca during the Enlightment, historically France has been on par with its neighbors. And yet, again and again, FRance is a cultural powerhouse without never having a military focus nor an agrarian focus.

My point is that some civs have a flavor attached to them. I know that Ireland is more than simply religious, but if we have to highlight what the Irish project most onto the world, then religion is pretty one of the major feature: one of the most catholic countries, filled with monasteries up to the brink, and basically providing EUrope with theologians and scholar for a large part of the Middle-Ages. Making Ireland not religious would be as if you made England not naval. Sure, you could, but it won't happen.
Out of genuine curiosity: if Ireland is not religious whatsoever, what could they been then?

Ireland could work in a similar way as Arabia, science through faith or faith through science, to show the big production of theologians and scriptoriums they had. And, of course, each and every new civ they could bring us could be as interesting, unique or fun as Scotland or the Gauls. But, as I said, making Ireland not religious would defeat the purpose, and we already have enough religious civ IMO, especially religious civs that cover quite large gameplays: religion+exploration/colonization (Spain), religion+conquest (Byzantium, Chandragupta, Poland), religion+science (Arabia), religion+trade (Mali, Ethiopia), religion+culture (Russia, Ethiopia, Khmers, Poland), religion+terrain (Maoris, Mali, Russia), religion+seafaring (Indonesia, Norway), religion+diplomacy/city-States (Georgia, Gandhi), religion+pop/happiness/food (India, Khmers), religion+city planning (Nubia, Japan) and my favourite: religion without religion (Kongo). Amongst all those civs, I personally fail to see which new interesting niche Ireland could fill.

Basically, you are right but look at France. Civ V was a Napoleon's France with culture + military, in Civ VI we have Cathy with espionage, and Eleonor with unique culture flipping cities.
in fact, there is a narrow number of the main focus for Civs: science, religion, culture, military, navy, perhaps we can add production, diplomacy, gold, or maybe growth. So in every expansion pack, we will get yet another science Civ, yet another military Civ, etc. More important than the main Civ focus is what additional mechanics or synergies of mechanics can be added. Ethiopia might be considered as yet another religion Civ, but they are designed in a unique way. So this is a big simplification to say "yet another religion Civ" if it would be a religion Civ in the Irish case. They might go culture as well. So Civ is composed of three elements. The main general theme throughout the series that builds its identity, the main iteration theme that changes throughout the series that decides if Civ is interesting and well designed, and a good story behind it.
If we reduce Ireland to only the main general theme it won't sound interesting. But this is just a part of the picture.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'D TAKE AN OBSCURE OR RIDICULOUS OR "UNWORTHY" CIV LIKE INUITS OR SAN MARINO IF THEY HAVE INTERESTING AND ENGAGING GAMEPLAYS OVER "BIG NAMES" LIKE AUSTRIA OR ITALY IF THEY HAVE BORING GAMEPLAYS

Amen. In fact, part of me is very hesitant to be promoting Italy as an idea because strict fanservice has resulted in some disappointments. I think Italy has very high-if-narrow potential, but could very easily be underwhelming. I think it really needs to be some sort of cooperative city-state theme in order to hit the flavor well, not just a lazy condottiere + piazza culture civ.

And while there is some hit-and-miss in the NFP (looking at you, Simon), I think that the dev team at least made an effort to create interesting, engaging and fun civs, because, even if I personally hate conquering civs and I think we already have enough religious civs, I think both Ethiopia and Byzantium showed signs that the devs tried something new over simple "X% bonuses"

Well also the Gauls and Vietnam played a bit with city planning, which I appreciated. They definitely had ideas, even if they weren't executed especially well. I think Maya, Colombia, and Babylon were the civs which totally missed the mark ludohistorically; they had a gameplay "idea," but didn't develop it in a way that was either terribly fun to play, nor especially representative of the civ in question.

Eh...they wouldn't have a Grand Prix unique improvement or a pope as a leader which would offer more interesting playstyles.

A Grand Prix UI, although aesthetically cool (?), would likely do very little different than a hockey rink or golf course.

Actually, the same thing for the pope, although I think that impliedly comes with some design space around religious gameplay that other civs probably wouldn't have.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Amen. In fact, part of me is very hesitant to be promoting Italy as an idea because strict fanservice has resulted in some disappointments. I think Italy has very high-if-narrow potential, but could very easily be underwhelming. I think it really needs to be some sort of cooperative city-state theme in order to hit the flavor well, not just a lazy condottiere + piazza culture civ.

To be fair a condotierri could be only purchased with gold, and have the ability to lend it to other civs for gold for a time. It would be interesting if you could levy your UU to an ally.
And who needs a piazza when you could get an opera house, or my favorite, a unique workshop building that grants additional culture plus GWAM and Great Scientist points per turn.

A Grand Prix UI, although aesthetically cool (?), would likely do very little different than a hockey rink or golf course.

Actually, the same thing for the pope, although I think that impliedly comes with some design space around religious gameplay that other civs probably wouldn't have.

I wouldn't take these seriously.

 

[BD123]

Amen. In fact, part of me is very hesitant to be promoting Italy as an idea because strict fanservice has resulted in some disappointments. I think Italy has very high-if-narrow potential, but could very easily be underwhelming. I think it really needs to be some sort of cooperative city-state theme in order to hit the flavor well, not just a lazy condottiere + piazza culture civ.

I think Italy *should* be a civ that's easier to design a more interesting and flavorful take on. Of course Byzantium and Babylon both offer equally as rich histories and opportunities for unique gameplay and we got another domination civ that usurped the niche of Spain and then.... a monstrosity in place of a proper Mesopotamian civ design. I don't think underwhelming design has anything to do with the prospective civ themselves - Italy, Byzantium, and Babylon are all overstuff with interesting and fun stuff - it's just that sometimes the devs flop out on a design and that can extend to any civ. We could get a Swahili civ that's an absolute mess, would it really have been any better than a familiar Portugal entry aside from "exotic" factor?

As for Monaco and San Marino, I think they'd work better as city-states since that's what they are in real life... I wouldn't want Singapore to be a civ for the same reason.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

Of course Byzantium and Babylon both offer equally as rich histories and opportunities for unique gameplay and we got another domination civ that usurped the niche of Spain

Because they chose Basil II as leader, I understand why they designed Byzantium the way they did but I think there were a multitude of different directions they could have gone other than domination by religion, even with him as leader.

 

[Zaarin]

I honestly have a huge grudge against the Yuezhi for destroying the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom.

Do we need more Hellenistic cultures in the game? We owe the Yuezhi a debt for replacing the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom. (Though the fact that they turned out to be Bactrian is a little disappointing because it means they're not Tocharians/Kucheans/Agneans. )

Because they chose Basil II as leader, I understand why they designed Byzantium the way they did but I think there were a multitude of different directions they could have gone other than domination by religion.

Wholly agree. While it suits Basil II, the fact that they made Byzantium, which was on the defensive for most of its history, an expansionist power is kind of strange.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

To be fair a condotierri could be only purchased with gold, and have the ability to lend it to other civs for gold for a time. It would be interesting if you could levy your UU to an ally.
And who needs a piazza when you could get an opera house, or my favorite, a unique workshop building that grants additional culture plus GWAM and Great Scientist points per turn.

But does that kind of condotierri feel flavorfully Italian? I don't think mercenaries hit Italian flavor especially well for me; granted I think most unique military units don't contribute substantially to a civ's flavor so I'm not really looking for it there.

Workshop or Opera House would be closer to "Italy," if we are going full renaissance. Or a Palazzo/Museum. I think great scientists is one half, the other would be some sort of unique museum feature ala Britain's old UA.

But where I think Italy truly has a chance to shine is in differentiating it along the terrain axis. And here, I'm not necessarily talking terrain so much as city-planning change-ups like we have with Japan, the Maya, Gaul, and Vietnam. And this is where I think Italy almost has to have some sort of city-state or federation mechanic to have a truly different playstyle.

I wouldn't take these seriously.

I do. I still think, all told, The Vatican is a more dominant imperial power historically and currently than Italy ever was.

I think Italy *should* be a civ that's easier to design a more interesting and flavorful take on. Of course Byzantium and Babylon both offer equally as rich histories and opportunities for unique gameplay and we got another domination civ that usurped the niche of Spain and then.... a monstrosity in place of a proper Mesopotamian civ design. I don't think underwhelming design has anything to do with the prospective civ themselves - Italy, Byzantium, and Babylon are all overstuff with interesting and fun stuff - it's just that sometimes the devs flop out on a design and that can extend to any civ. We could get a Swahili civ that's an absolute mess, would it really have been any better than a familiar Portugal entry aside from "exotic" factor?

True. Again, Maya, Gran Colombia, and Babylon all have pretty generic designs assembled around a "playstyle" rather than the culture itself.

I'm not sure where I stand on the Swahili/Portugal idea. On principle, anything to get new cultures in the game is better than nothing, which is why I'm surprisingly okay with Gran Colombia.

As for Monaco and San Marino, I think they'd work better as city-states since that's what they are in real life... I wouldn't want Singapore to be a civ for the same reason.

Yes. The only way I can see city-states working as civs is if they exert some sort of political/cultural influence on the world/region around them. So I could see the Vatican or Jerusalem working as "religious" empires, or Switzerland working as an economic empire, but for the most part smaller city-states and kingdoms just don't fit the expansionist gameplay model civ uses.

(I think, in time, civ could move even more toward infrastructure, culture, and technology, make more of the roster include "peoples" or "nations" that mechanically don't need to expand. Then we wouldn't need this soft rule of limited civs to empires and we could then start looking at playable city-states perhaps. But that's a long way off, and even then I'm a little dubious we would be able to figure out which city-state is more deserving than any other to be a civ (Vatican aside).)

 

[Republic of San Montuoso]

Amen. In fact, part of me is very hesitant to be promoting Italy as an idea because strict fanservice has resulted in some disappointments. I think Italy has very high-if-narrow potential, but could very easily be underwhelming. I think it really needs to be some sort of cooperative city-state theme in order to hit the flavor well, not just a lazy condottiere + piazza culture civ.

I'm a sucker for Renaissance Italy and I'd love soooo badly to have them (Venice was my favourite Civ V civ), but if they happen to put it in the game with a lazy piazza design, then I'd be hugely disappointed.

But, IMO, Italy could indeed be one of the Big Names of European cultures that could easily bring a fun and interesting design, way more interesting than even Portugal or Denmark. Dealing with loyalty, culture, a city-State league-thingy, could be marvelous... if it's done correctly. After all, apparently Maya's design was to simulate the tight-knitted pack of city-States under LSS's rule, and I can say that their design is dubious at best.

And who needs a piazza when you could get an opera house, or my favorite, a unique workshop building that grants additional culture plus GWAM and Great Scientist points per turn.

I already had an idea for an Opera UI:
Opera - replace the Radio Station. Unlocked earlier (at Opera and Ballet civic instead of Radio technology), two slots for Great Works of Music, double the number of Great Musicians points produced in the city, and give extra loyalty points and pressure for each GWofMusic slotted in the city.
Or give it for Austria, both could use it, even if only Italy used opera as much in their revolutionary minds than Austrians.

Basically, please, just give me opera houses. That's (no lie) one of the things I wait most in Humankind, with the Austro-Hungarians Opernhaus and Italian Teatro. I'm just the kind of guy that can listen to opera all day.

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

But does that kind of condotierri feel flavorfully Italian? I don't think mercenaries hit Italian flavor especially well for me; granted I think most unique military units don't contribute substantially to a civ's flavor so I'm not really looking for it there.

Well that's what they were. And with all the Medieval trading powers that were located in Italy (Genoa, Florence, Venice etc.) I think having a unique unit flavored around gold would fit.

But where I think Italy truly has a chance to shine is in differentiating it along the terrain axis. And here, I'm not necessarily talking terrain so much as city-planning change-ups like we have with Japan, the Maya, Gaul, and Vietnam. And this is where I think Italy almost has to have some sort of city-state or federation mechanic to have a truly different playstyle.

That's definitely true. One thing that could make them interesting is if they declared war on a city-state their envoys don't leave. And when they take it over they would still keep to keep the envoy bonuses that they had, or even the city-states suzerain bonus.

I already had an idea for an Opera UI:
Opera - replace the Radio Station. Unlocked earlier (at Opera and Ballet civic instead of Radio technology), two slots for Great Works of Music, double the number of Great Musicians points produced in the city, and give extra loyalty points and pressure for each GWofMusic slotted in the city.
Or give it for Austria, both could use it, even if only Italy used opera as much in their revolutionary minds than Austrians.

Basically, please, just give me opera houses. That's (no lie) one of the things I wait most in Humankind, with the Austro-Hungarians Opernhaus and Italian Teatro. I'm just the kind of guy that can listen to opera all day.

If I had it my way ideally we could get an Opera House building which anyone can build which is mutually exclusive with the Broadcast Center. It would obviously be unlocked at Opera and Ballet and would have two slots for Great work of music and one for writing.
If Italy would get in the game they could unlock it earlier at Humanism.

Broadcast Centers still have one Great Work of Music Slot but now mostly gain tourism based off of Rock Band Concerts.

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I'm a sucker for Renaissance Italy and I'd love soooo badly to have them (Venice was my favourite Civ V civ), but if they happen to put it in the game with a lazy piazza design, then I'd be hugely disappointed.

But, IMO, Italy could indeed be one of the Big Names of European cultures that could easily bring a fun and interesting design, way more interesting than even Portugal or Denmark. Dealing with loyalty, culture, a city-State league-thingy, could be marvelous... if it's done correctly. After all, apparently Maya's design was to simulate the tight-knitted pack of city-States under LSS's rule, and I can say that their design is dubious at best.

Well, also I think the Maya were intended to reflect their water management in a very rainy region independent of major river sources...and their subsequent downfall when they expanded too far and didn't have the infrastructure to survive droughts.

That's definitely true. One thing that could make them interesting is if they declared war on a city-state their envoys don't leave. And when they take it over they would still keep to keep the envoy bonuses that they had, or even the city-states suzerain bonus.

Oh I like that. A civ that keeps suz bonuses. Very Italian too I think.

Speaking of Venice @Andrew Johnson [FXS] , is there any particular design rule in place for VI devs that limits civs to specifically military unique units, like say for balancing purposes? Venice and the Shoshone had non-military uniques, and I think there's a lot of untapped design space that would also encourage civs to play more pacifist games. I'm thinking stuff like unique traders, unique missionaries, that sort of thing. I do see things like non-military mechanics indirectly making unique civilians like China's builder bonus, but nothing which is explicitly a unique (except for GC's GGs which are still pseudo-military). I just wonder if maybe the script could be flipped at some point where a civ gets an express unique non-military unit, and only implied or consequential military bonuses through abilities.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

I already had an idea for an Opera UI:
Opera - replace the Radio Station. Unlocked earlier (at Opera and Ballet civic instead of Radio technology), two slots for Great Works of Music, double the number of Great Musicians points produced in the city, and give extra loyalty points and pressure for each GWofMusic slotted in the city.
Or give it for Austria, both could use it, even if only Italy used opera as much in their revolutionary minds than Austrians.

Basically, please, just give me opera houses. That's (no lie) one of the things I wait most in Humankind, with the Austro-Hungarians Opernhaus and Italian Teatro. I'm just the kind of guy that can listen to opera all day.

We could also make them not require any Power.

 

[Andrew Johnson [FXS]]

@Andrew Johnson [FXS] , is there any particular design rule in place for VI devs that limits civs to specifically military unique units, like say for balancing purposes?

I can't really comment too much on design choices, being the historian and not the designer! And I also don't know.

 

[Wielki Hegemon]

But where I think Italy truly has a chance to shine is in differentiating it along the terrain axis. And here, I'm not necessarily talking terrain so much as city-planning change-ups like we have with Japan, the Maya, Gaul, and Vietnam. And this is where I think Italy almost has to have some sort of city-state or federation mechanic to have a truly different playstyle.

This might refer to almost every potential Civilization City planning restrictions are always safe to pick for a Civ mechanic. I am afraid Italy might be even well mechanical designed but very cliche and bland in reality.

I still think, all told, The Vatican is a more dominant imperial power historically and currently than Italy ever was.

That's the point. Both Vatican, or to be more precise Papal State and Venice were more significant empires than any other Italian City State or never existing State of Renaissance Italy, or even modern Italy. Both have 1000 years old States. Rich of history, power, and influence. Both were shaping the history of Europe and even the World. Both are very unique and different from other European Civs we know from the game. Both have a good and specific story to tell in a game. For example, both can use espionage we haven't seen a lot. The only Civ using Espionage is France and rather in a straightforward manner. (+1 spy and +1 spy promotion). And here we have all the interesting historical background of the Council of Ten for example. There are more of course.

I can't really comment too much on design choices, being the historian and not the designer! And I also don't know.

By the way. It must be fun to see all our "brawls" for possible new Civs from Your perspective

 

[PhoenicianGold]

I can't really comment too much on design choices, being the historian and not the designer! And I also don't know.

Fiddlesticks. Well maybe if you just keep responding to emails with unique rock band designs they will get the hint.

(don't do that, please)

This might refer to almost every potential Civilization City planning restrictions are always safe to pick for a Civ mechanic. I am afraid Italy might be even well mechanical designed but very cliche and bland in reality.

Eh, again I think if we took the Venice model as a jumping off point and heavily modified it to fit Italian flavor, it could work.

That's the point. Both Vatican, or to be more precise Papal State and Venice were more significant empires than any other Italian City State or never existing State of Renaissance Italy, or even modern Italy. Both have 1000 years old States. Rich of history, power, and influence. Both were shaping the history of Europe and even the World. Both are very unique and different from other European Civs we know from the game. Both have a good and specific story to tell in a game. For example, both can use espionage we haven't seen a lot. The only Civ using Espionage is France and rather in a straightforward manner. (+1 spy and +1 spy promotion). And here we have all the interesting historical background of the Council of Ten for example. There are more of course.

True, I do think that espionage would work very well for either, something enduring about Italian culture that is even reflected in modern gangster culture. I also still think that Vatican/Italy are a natural fit for a single-city civ that controls city-states by establishing a dominant religion in them, or could even build basilicae in other cities. Catholicism just feels quintessentially Italian, a foundation for mechanics that no other civ could claim. (And I think that specifically religious espionage is especially Italian).

 

[Alexander's Hetaroi]

We could also make them not require any Power.

I could still see them requiring power if they come in the Industrial Era. Do we want them to become places for the Phantom of the Opera to roam at night?

The only Civ using Espionage is France and rather in a straightforward manner. (+1 spy and +1 spy promotion).

We can't forget about all those ladies-in-waiting either.

Catholicism just feels quintessentially Italian, a foundation for mechanics that no other civ could claim.

Somewhere Phillip II is crying.

 

[Zaarin]

Do we want them to become places for the Phantom of the Opera at night?

I'm not sure the auctioneer was correct that electric lighting would have scared off the Phantom, especially since the original opera house used so many candles it was a fire hazard. Though honestly Raoul is as creepy as the Phantom so what's going to scare him away?

 

[PhoenicianGold]

Somewhere Phillip II is crying.

Brazil is also extremely Catholic, and even though it doesn't have as high percentage of Catholics as Mexico, it has twice as many.

I don't think Spain as the de facto Catholic colonial civ negates the Vatican's importance or its ability to find its own niche as a civ that wouldn't necessarily flip cities, but still control them.

 

[Duke William of Normandy]

Somewhere Phillip II is crying.

First, he was Byzantined. Now, he's going to be Portugaled.

 

[SirMediocrity]

Do we need more Hellenistic cultures in the game? We owe the Yuezhi a debt for replacing the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom. (Though the fact that they turned out to be Bactrian is a little disappointing because it means they're not Tocharians/Kucheans/Agneans.

You seem to be implying that I have the grudge because I want the Greco-Bactrians in the game, which I don't. I don't know where you got that from.