Civilizations Reborn

I want to say first that this is a really wonderful modmodmod, built upon an already great modmod. I think it's ridiculous how eurocentric Civ and other history based games tend to be, and this mod with vanilla DoC do so much to help alleviate that. Vanilla civ should be like this. Plus, it's so much fun to play a non-European civ and have plenty of neighbors.

That said, I'm surprised that among all the Pre-columbian civ discussion, I haven't heard any suggestion for an Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloan civ. They're very iconic, represent a tradition of Oasisamerican cultures which remain one of the largest indigenous populations in the U.S. today, and we know a lot about them. Plus, It would help give the Hopwell and Aztecs/Mexica a friend without crowding them. I don't currently have the skills to implement them, but I could do a civ write-up if you aren't done with the Pre-columbian updates.
 
JimBos said:
I want to say first that this is a really wonderful modmodmod, built upon an already great modmod. I think it's ridiculous how eurocentric Civ and other history based games tend to be, and this mod with vanilla DoC do so much to help alleviate that. Vanilla civ should be like this. Plus, it's so much fun to play a non-European civ and have plenty of neighbors.

That said, I'm surprised that among all the Pre-columbian civ discussion, I haven't heard any suggestion for an Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloan civ. They're very iconic, represent a tradition of Oasisamerican cultures which remain one of the largest indigenous populations in the U.S. today, and we know a lot about them. Plus, It would help give the Hopwell and Aztecs/Mexica a friend without crowding them. I don't currently have the skills to implement them, but I could do a civ write-up if you aren't done with the Pre-columbian updates.
Click to expand...

I would say post it anyway. Even when it won't be implemented, it (or elements of it) could serve as inspiration for other civs.
 
JimBos said:
I want to say first that this is a really wonderful modmodmod, built upon an already great modmod. I think it's ridiculous how eurocentric Civ and other history based games tend to be, and this mod with vanilla DoC do so much to help alleviate that. Vanilla civ should be like this. Plus, it's so much fun to play a non-European civ and have plenty of neighbors.

That said, I'm surprised that among all the Pre-columbian civ discussion, I haven't heard any suggestion for an Anasazi/Ancestral Puebloan civ. They're very iconic, represent a tradition of Oasisamerican cultures which remain one of the largest indigenous populations in the U.S. today, and we know a lot about them. Plus, It would help give the Hopwell and Aztecs/Mexica a friend without crowding them. I don't currently have the skills to implement them, but I could do a civ write-up if you aren't done with the Pre-columbian updates.
Click to expand...
Thank you so much for the praise and feedback, Rhye's and Fall is the reason I got interested in history in the first place, so hearing that my mod lives up to the astronomical standards it and Dawn of Civilization sets in the minds of others is a honour like no other.

That said, I'm surprised it's taken this long for someone to bring up the Pueblo XD. I've been wondering if I should bring them up as I've seen them on so many maps while developing the Mississippi, Inuit, and Muisca, but decided not to for not reason :p. Please do write an outline for them, all suggestions help. No matter how great or poor, they all drive thought and discussion.
 
Any thoughts on the Swahili? 5000 gold and Islamic Grand Mosque by 1500 seems tough. Also now with the competing space with Zimbabwe there's kind of a hard limit to what you can do, I suppose.
 
New Civ: Puebloans

Leader: Xauían (who in 1540 led a successful defense against a Spanish invasion during the Tiguex War. Xauían is actually not Pueblo per say, but part of the Tiwa tribe and lead Puebloans)
or Po'pay (a religious leader who in 1680 lead the Pueblo Revolt against Spanish colonists)
Birth: 750-900AD at 1E of the Salt Lake (Most accurate location of Mesa Verde not in or encircled by mountains. The start date is the range of the Pueblo 1 period, when the Ancestral Puebloans began to build their iconic architecture and adaptive dry agriculture.)

UP: The Power of Water Harvesting (or, a poor translation from English to Navajo of "water spring" tóháálᶖ́) : May build farms on desert and desert hills tiles. Cities provide irrigation.
(The Pueblo 1 period's start is characterized by a drying of the American Southwest, pressing the Pueblo and neighboring peoples to become more cunning and conservative. This led to a number of water conservation techniques, and is a theorized reason for why they built cliff dwellings, as precipitation was better in higher elevations. Let me know if this is overpowered or not feasible to implement.)

Spoiler UU and UB :
UU: Anasazi - Available at Commune Replaces Longbowman. Provides food for nearest city upon defeating/withdrawing from an enemy and/or 50% bonus against cavalry units.
(The bonus is in reference to Puebloan raids for food during the 13th century following times of drought (and helps with UHV 1). The second bonus refers to a battle during the Pueblo revolt, where Po'pay's troops cleverly stole Spanish horses before an assault so that they could not retreat, and helps with UHV 3. The name "anasazi" is actually a Navajo term apperantly meaning "enemy" and nowadays not a fully politically correct term. However, I can't find a better term, and given how viscous the Puebloans were at times, I think it's appropriate enough. The only weapon I know for certainwhich they used were bows.)
UB: Kiva - Replaces Arena. Available at Engineering. +15% defense and +1 happiness per/excess food or whatever. Remove the normal +2 happiness. Keep happiness per culture.
(Ah the Kiva, so iconic. They were used as meeting places and ceremony, so I don't think that an arena is far off. The 15% defense is natural given the cliffside structures' natural defenses and helps the Puebloans resist Western invasions (syncing with UHV 3). The Happiness per food reflects how unstable Puebloan society really was, constantly on the brink of another drought or famine and having to raid or possibly commit cannibalism. However, when the times are good, they are truly an amazing society.)


Spoiler UHV's :
UHV1: Miracle of Maize - Have the largest city and largest average city size in North America by 1300 AD. (Maybe not counting Mesoamerica)
The Pueblo people undoubtedly had a knack for agriculture, with all sorts of water conservation techniques, crop hybridization, and domesticating corn before the North American East. Considering this, I feel like this can be a fun UHV, considering the options you have thanks to the UU and stealing the Floating gardens from the Aztecs (which syncs with UHV 2, though we may not want those to sync). This is pretty tough just with the Hopwell, who have huge cities, so we can exclude Mesoamerica. This requires corn to be added to the map.

UHV2: Missing Mesa Verde - Construct two World wonders before European contact
A bit of a joke. Why isn't Mesa Verde a wonder? Well, if it isn't, then we'll steal yours! Again, this gives the player options where to go, though Floating Gardens may not be optional considering UHV1.

UHV3: Po'pay's Prophecy - Raze 2 Spanish cities with Catholicism present in them.
Hopefully the longbowmen would help. This UHV reflects the successes Puebloans had against the Spanish and in resisting Catholic incursions into their lands. In fact, the Pueblo revolt began after Po'pay and other spiritual leaders were captured by the Church for witchcraft, and when the Church attempted to convert the Puebloans. Po'pay prophecised a time of prosperity and favor from the gods after defeating the Spanish.


(Religion: Hopi Mythology. The temple could be called "Hopi Petroglyph")

Whew, that's a lot. Let me know if you want me to compile a city list and great people's list too, and if so in what format. I also have links for Anasazi/Pueblo mod content if you want. Let me know if any of the bonuses are too powerful or the UHV's are too easy.
 
JimBos said:
New Civ: Puebloans

Leader: Xauían (who in 1540 led a successful defense against a Spanish invasion during the Tiguex War. Xauían is actually not Pueblo per say, but part of the Tiwa tribe and lead Puebloans)
or Po'pay (a religious leader who in 1680 lead the Pueblo Revolt against Spanish colonists)
Birth: 750-900AD at 1E of the Salt Lake (Most accurate location of Mesa Verde not in or encircled by mountains. The start date is the range of the Pueblo 1 period, when the Ancestral Puebloans began to build their iconic architecture and adaptive dry agriculture.)

UP: The Power of Water Harvesting (or, a poor translation from English to Navajo of "water spring" tóháálᶖ́) : May build farms on desert and desert hills tiles. Cities provide irrigation.
(The Pueblo 1 period's start is characterized by a drying of the American Southwest, pressing the Pueblo and neighboring peoples to become more cunning and conservative. This led to a number of water conservation techniques, and is a theorized reason for why they built cliff dwellings, as precipitation was better in higher elevations. Let me know if this is overpowered or not feasible to implement.)

Spoiler UU and UB :
UU: Anasazi - Available at Commune Replaces Longbowman. Provides food for nearest city upon defeating/withdrawing from an enemy and/or 50% bonus against cavalry units.
(The bonus is in reference to Puebloan raids for food during the 13th century following times of drought (and helps with UHV 1). The second bonus refers to a battle during the Pueblo revolt, where Po'pay's troops cleverly stole Spanish horses before an assault so that they could not retreat, and helps with UHV 3. The name "anasazi" is actually a Navajo term apperantly meaning "enemy" and nowadays not a fully politically correct term. However, I can't find a better term, and given how viscous the Puebloans were at times, I think it's appropriate enough. The only weapon I know for certainwhich they used were bows.)
UB: Kiva - Replaces Arena. Available at Engineering. +15% defense and +1 happiness per/excess food or whatever. Remove the normal +2 happiness. Keep happiness per culture.
(Ah the Kiva, so iconic. They were used as meeting places and ceremony, so I don't think that an arena is far off. The 15% defense is natural given the cliffside structures' natural defenses and helps the Puebloans resist Western invasions (syncing with UHV 3). The Happiness per food reflects how unstable Puebloan society really was, constantly on the brink of another drought or famine and having to raid or possibly commit cannibalism. However, when the times are good, they are truly an amazing society.)


Spoiler UHV's :
UHV1: Miracle of Maize - Have the largest city and largest average city size in North America by 1300 AD. (Maybe not counting Mesoamerica)
The Pueblo people undoubtedly had a knack for agriculture, with all sorts of water conservation techniques, crop hybridization, and domesticating corn before the North American East. Considering this, I feel like this can be a fun UHV, considering the options you have thanks to the UU and stealing the Floating gardens from the Aztecs (which syncs with UHV 2, though we may not want those to sync). This is pretty tough just with the Hopwell, who have huge cities, so we can exclude Mesoamerica. This requires corn to be added to the map.

UHV2: Missing Mesa Verde - Construct two World wonders before European contact
A bit of a joke. Why isn't Mesa Verde a wonder? Well, if it isn't, then we'll steal yours! Again, this gives the player options where to go, though Floating Gardens may not be optional considering UHV1.

UHV3: Po'pay's Prophecy - Raze 2 Spanish cities with Catholicism present in them.
Hopefully the longbowmen would help. This UHV reflects the successes Puebloans had against the Spanish and in resisting Catholic incursions into their lands. In fact, the Pueblo revolt began after Po'pay and other spiritual leaders were captured by the Church for witchcraft, and when the Church attempted to convert the Puebloans. Po'pay prophecised a time of prosperity and favor from the gods after defeating the Spanish.


(Religion: Hopi Mythology. The temple could be called "Hopi Petroglyph")

Whew, that's a lot. Let me know if you want me to compile a city list and great people's list too, and if so in what format. I also have links for Anasazi/Pueblo mod content if you want. Let me know if any of the bonuses are too powerful or the UHV's are too easy.
Click to expand...

Thank you so much for the help.
I could add Mesa Verde as a wonder.
Please do give city list and great people name suggestions. Every help helps.
 
BaneFire said:
Any thoughts on the Swahili? 5000 gold and Islamic Grand Mosque by 1500 seems tough. Also now with the competing space with Zimbabwe there's kind of a hard limit to what you can do, I suppose.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I'm responsible for that number as I don't recall 1SDAN changing it after merging Swahili into this mod. The UHV is a copy of the Tamil UHV, which I based the value on. I increased it because it should (theoretically) be easier to get money that count towards the UHV because you can use your UU and there are more civs around giving more trade potential. I don't remember if I took into account the amount of turns you have to achieve the UHV when determining the value though. I didn't do much playtesting to see how achievable this number is. I'm not a good player when it comes to UHV. Basing difficulty on my ability to achieve it is not the best idea. So if the UHV is way too hard, the value could be lowered.
 
Last edited:
I thought about posting this in the main thread but since DoC doesn't yet have any exclusively Stone Age civs to speak of I thought I'd put it here.

Something I've been thinking a bit about is how to implement pre-Bronze Age civilizations in a meaningful and interesting way. We've been implementing a lot of pre-Columbian and ancient civs in this modmodmod which is great and long-awaited but it's got me thinking about if we eventually see these civs in DoC. Now one of the major problems I see is that these Stone Age/Neolithic civs is balancing realistic development and fun gameplay. I don't know if anyone else feels similarly but I thought I'd share my thoughts.

My play through as Norte Chico saw me quickly outstrip all other pre-Columbian civilizations in research and manage to stay stable with an empire that spanned two continents. Now, simple solution, reduce stability factors and reduce research rate but then it gets pretty boring to just run a one city civ with low production and very low turn-over of techs with relatively little opportunity at trade and diplomacy. The scale is just too small.

So here's a thought: Not even sure it's possible but... What if Stone Age/Neolithic civs (that never really advanced past that point) had a different tech tree? Perhaps more detailed with Stone Age/Neolithic techs (I'll give some examples later on). I think one of the biggest things that would make a more realistically paced Norte Chico or Hopewell or whatever game boring is the relatively slow rate of incremental milestones compared to later/more advanced civs. By having a more detailed Stone Age/Neolithic tech tree you could create a more interesting game where you reach more milestones without advancing too quickly and you could add more minor civs that could compete for these smaller milestones on a smaller scale. I guess even just an expansion of the existing tech tree including more detailed Stone Age/Neolithic techs might do but I don't know if it would sufficiently solve the problem of pacing between these different types of civs.

Some examples I thought of off the top of my head: different types of pottery/wares, different types of mythologies, burial traditions, more specific advancements in agriculture (gathering, gardening, grains, tubers, hybridization, etc each being their own tech) similarly with animal husbandry and domestication (rodents, birds, large herbivores, etc), hunting (with dogs, falconry? I dunno) different stages of tool-making (wood, stone, obsidian, etc.), list could go on quite a bit. Our latest tech tree is far from exhaustive in this area.

The next problem would be does this actually achieve the goal of adding more meaningful milestones to the Stone Age game or would they just largely be empty techs without adding loads of new units/buildings/improvements/civics/concepts? Or perhaps Stone Age civs could start with greater limitations on growth that are removed with unlocking certain techs on their special tech tree. Such as limits on number of settlements, rate of cultural expansion or number of workable tiles around a city, limits on number of a specific type of improvement around a given settlement, limits on number of buildings/units assigned to any given settlement. Perhaps once they reach a certain threshold they could actually break out of the Stone Age limits and join the "more advanced" civilizations.

EDIT: Perhaps advancing past the neolithic is the requirement for New World civs to not collapse on contact?

EDIT EDIT: I could see a real benefit to things like limiting the number of workable tiles or number of given improvements around a settlement that would alter gameplay/strategy. For example, Hopewell would want to unlock as many agricultural advancements as possible to unlock more farmable land for each settlement, whereas Inuit would have no need to research agricultural advancements because they have little to no potential for farms. Conversely they might want to research more advanced navigation techniques to gain access to more coastal tiles.

I don't know, just thoughts.
 
Last edited:
Hell yeah, just completed the Burma UHV. This is probably one of my favourite CR civs. I love how each UHV has its own feel, you go from whip-managing to specialist-managing to conquering. Sure it's not a totally unique civ but it's the perfect combination of gameplay imo.

burmauhv.png
burmauhv2.png
 
TJDowling said:
I thought about posting this in the main thread but since DoC doesn't yet have any exclusively Stone Age civs to speak of I thought I'd put it here.

Something I've been thinking a bit about is how to implement pre-Bronze Age civilizations in a meaningful and interesting way. We've been implementing a lot of pre-Columbian and ancient civs in this modmodmod which is great and long-awaited but it's got me thinking about if we eventually see these civs in DoC. Now one of the major problems I see is that these Stone Age/Neolithic civs is balancing realistic development and fun gameplay. I don't know if anyone else feels similarly but I thought I'd share my thoughts.

My play through as Norte Chico saw me quickly outstrip all other pre-Columbian civilizations in research and manage to stay stable with an empire that spanned two continents. Now, simple solution, reduce stability factors and reduce research rate but then it gets pretty boring to just run a one city civ with low production and very low turn-over of techs with relatively little opportunity at trade and diplomacy. The scale is just too small.

So here's a thought: Not even sure it's possible but... What if Stone Age/Neolithic civs (that never really advanced past that point) had a different tech tree? Perhaps more detailed with Stone Age/Neolithic techs (I'll give some examples later on). I think one of the biggest things that would make a more realistically paced Norte Chico or Hopewell or whatever game boring is the relatively slow rate of incremental milestones compared to later/more advanced civs. By having a more detailed Stone Age/Neolithic tech tree you could create a more interesting game where you reach more milestones without advancing too quickly and you could add more minor civs that could compete for these smaller milestones on a smaller scale. I guess even just an expansion of the existing tech tree including more detailed Stone Age/Neolithic techs might do but I don't know if it would sufficiently solve the problem of pacing between these different types of civs.

Some examples I thought of off the top of my head: different types of pottery/wares, different types of mythologies, burial traditions, more specific advancements in agriculture (gathering, gardening, grains, tubers, hybridization, etc each being their own tech) similarly with animal husbandry and domestication (rodents, birds, large herbivores, etc), hunting (with dogs, falconry? I dunno) different stages of tool-making (wood, stone, obsidian, etc.), list could go on quite a bit. Our latest tech tree is far from exhaustive in this area.

The next problem would be does this actually achieve the goal of adding more meaningful milestones to the Stone Age game or would they just largely be empty techs without adding loads of new units/buildings/improvements/civics/concepts? Or perhaps Stone Age civs could start with greater limitations on growth that are removed with unlocking certain techs on their special tech tree. Such as limits on number of settlements, rate of cultural expansion or number of workable tiles around a city, limits on number of a specific type of improvement around a given settlement, limits on number of buildings/units assigned to any given settlement. Perhaps once they reach a certain threshold they could actually break out of the Stone Age limits and join the "more advanced" civilizations.

EDIT: Perhaps advancing past the neolithic is the requirement for New World civs to not collapse on contact?

EDIT EDIT: I could see a real benefit to things like limiting the number of workable tiles or number of given improvements around a settlement that would alter gameplay/strategy. For example, Hopewell would want to unlock as many agricultural advancements as possible to unlock more farmable land for each settlement, whereas Inuit would have no need to research agricultural advancements because they have little to no potential for farms. Conversely they might want to research more advanced navigation techniques to gain access to more coastal tiles.

I don't know, just thoughts.
Click to expand...
It's a good idea, but is too much of a departure from DOC for this mod. I'm sorry but I'm not planning on adding any massive overhauls to this mod anytime soon.
 
JimBos said:
New Civ: Puebloans

Leader: Xauían (who in 1540 led a successful defense against a Spanish invasion during the Tiguex War. Xauían is actually not Pueblo per say, but part of the Tiwa tribe and lead Puebloans)
or Po'pay (a religious leader who in 1680 lead the Pueblo Revolt against Spanish colonists)
Birth: 750-900AD at 1E of the Salt Lake (Most accurate location of Mesa Verde not in or encircled by mountains. The start date is the range of the Pueblo 1 period, when the Ancestral Puebloans began to build their iconic architecture and adaptive dry agriculture.)

UP: The Power of Water Harvesting (or, a poor translation from English to Navajo of "water spring" tóháálᶖ́) : May build farms on desert and desert hills tiles. Cities provide irrigation.
(The Pueblo 1 period's start is characterized by a drying of the American Southwest, pressing the Pueblo and neighboring peoples to become more cunning and conservative. This led to a number of water conservation techniques, and is a theorized reason for why they built cliff dwellings, as precipitation was better in higher elevations. Let me know if this is overpowered or not feasible to implement.)

Spoiler UU and UB :
UU: Anasazi - Available at Commune Replaces Longbowman. Provides food for nearest city upon defeating/withdrawing from an enemy and/or 50% bonus against cavalry units.
(The bonus is in reference to Puebloan raids for food during the 13th century following times of drought (and helps with UHV 1). The second bonus refers to a battle during the Pueblo revolt, where Po'pay's troops cleverly stole Spanish horses before an assault so that they could not retreat, and helps with UHV 3. The name "anasazi" is actually a Navajo term apperantly meaning "enemy" and nowadays not a fully politically correct term. However, I can't find a better term, and given how viscous the Puebloans were at times, I think it's appropriate enough. The only weapon I know for certainwhich they used were bows.)
UB: Kiva - Replaces Arena. Available at Engineering. +15% defense and +1 happiness per/excess food or whatever. Remove the normal +2 happiness. Keep happiness per culture.
(Ah the Kiva, so iconic. They were used as meeting places and ceremony, so I don't think that an arena is far off. The 15% defense is natural given the cliffside structures' natural defenses and helps the Puebloans resist Western invasions (syncing with UHV 3). The Happiness per food reflects how unstable Puebloan society really was, constantly on the brink of another drought or famine and having to raid or possibly commit cannibalism. However, when the times are good, they are truly an amazing society.)


Spoiler UHV's :
UHV1: Miracle of Maize - Have the largest city and largest average city size in North America by 1300 AD. (Maybe not counting Mesoamerica)
The Pueblo people undoubtedly had a knack for agriculture, with all sorts of water conservation techniques, crop hybridization, and domesticating corn before the North American East. Considering this, I feel like this can be a fun UHV, considering the options you have thanks to the UU and stealing the Floating gardens from the Aztecs (which syncs with UHV 2, though we may not want those to sync). This is pretty tough just with the Hopwell, who have huge cities, so we can exclude Mesoamerica. This requires corn to be added to the map.

UHV2: Missing Mesa Verde - Construct two World wonders before European contact
A bit of a joke. Why isn't Mesa Verde a wonder? Well, if it isn't, then we'll steal yours! Again, this gives the player options where to go, though Floating Gardens may not be optional considering UHV1.

UHV3: Po'pay's Prophecy - Raze 2 Spanish cities with Catholicism present in them.
Hopefully the longbowmen would help. This UHV reflects the successes Puebloans had against the Spanish and in resisting Catholic incursions into their lands. In fact, the Pueblo revolt began after Po'pay and other spiritual leaders were captured by the Church for witchcraft, and when the Church attempted to convert the Puebloans. Po'pay prophecised a time of prosperity and favor from the gods after defeating the Spanish.


(Religion: Hopi Mythology. The temple could be called "Hopi Petroglyph")

Whew, that's a lot. Let me know if you want me to compile a city list and great people's list too, and if so in what format. I also have links for Anasazi/Pueblo mod content if you want. Let me know if any of the bonuses are too powerful or the UHV's are too easy.
Click to expand...
Very cool ideas. This got me interested, so I read up on the Ancestral Puebloans, on which I know very little.

From my superficial reading, here are some more ideas to bounce around:
  • The religion can be called Kachina.
  • The Kiva sounds like a good UB, but could alternatively be used as the Pagan Temple, as it seems to be a mostly religious structure.
  • Other UB/pagan templs ideas: Herradura, Great House, something related to water management
  • The Great North Road and other ceremonial roads might deserve representation, either as a UHV ("Build a road network ...") or a UP (extra food/culture/something from roads)
  • The UP could be the Power of Oasisamerica (mostly because it's a cool name). It could be something like "Cities on desert tiles are considered oases, providing freshwater and extra food/commerce yields". Would encourage players to settle the desert and create several cities to maximize the gains.
  • One of the UHV goals could be about establishing and maintaining a trade relationship with a Mesoamerican civilization
 
The Olmecs are coming along nicely! I just need to playtest them a bit. Also, pagan temples don't seem to count as culture buildings (using countCultureBuildings in Victory.py). Any idea why and how to fix this?
 
Steb said:
The Olmecs are coming along nicely! I just need to playtest them a bit. Also, pagan temples don't seem to count as culture buildings (using countCultureBuildings in Victory.py). Any idea why and how to fix this?
Click to expand...
Great to hear, I'm looking forward to the finished product!
Looks like it's caused by this line:
Code: 
if not bIncludeWonders and iBuilding == iBeginWonders: break

The unique pagan temples come after wonder definitions, so they never get checked.
 
I made a pull request for the Olmecs. Unfortunately, the charger of the laptop I use to play broke, so I can't get any more playtest done for now. I can adjust the implementation later when I can playtest and after I get feedback. See here for the civ details.
 
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