1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Closing ranks: The onset of a clash of civilizations

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by aelf, Nov 22, 2015.

  1. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    45,436
    Location:
    Shadowy Fringe of the Candy Industry
    Because Native Americans and Chinese didn't even know it was happening. It was a big deal in Europe, and not much of anything anywhere else. Thus, local.
     
  2. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,995
    Location:
    the relative oasis of CFC
    Actually...
     
  3. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    45,436
    Location:
    Shadowy Fringe of the Candy Industry
    Do you think the local natives around these colonies knew that the squabbling white people were a part of some major conflagration? I don't, really, but I guess it's possible. I also would guess that beyond those who had been coopted or enslaved to work the plantations most didn't even know that the group of alien invaders had even changed.

    You definitely caught me out though, I was thinking the thirty years war was longer ago than mid 1600s.
     
  4. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,254
    Location:
    Scotland
    I was mostly using the war as a shorthand for Catholic-Protestant violence in Germany.
     
  5. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,995
    Location:
    the relative oasis of CFC
    Well, the people on Ceylon who got force-converted probably had some idea, I'd think. ;)

    But it's alright Tim. As TF says, most of the fighting did in fact happen in Germany -- though there were related, yet separate, wars happening in Poland-Lithuania, Russia, France, Spain, England, and Hungary too.

    I've just been reading up on it all after too much EU4. :D
     
  6. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    45,436
    Location:
    Shadowy Fringe of the Candy Industry
    As I am currently deep into EU2 I can relate.
     
  7. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2009
    Messages:
    6,756
    I take the 30YW (and I think I'm far from alone in this; in fact, I think it's the standard line) as the origin for freedom of conscience, establishment clause, etc. then secularization, etc. in the West. Eventually Eurooeans realized you can't force people's conscience with violence. It just makes them dig in more. Wasn't the loss of life just astonishing?

    (Wiki says this :
    At some point, you throw up your hands and say religiously motivated violence really isn't getting us anywhere.
     
  8. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    45,436
    Location:
    Shadowy Fringe of the Candy Industry
    You are expecting we will reach this point soon?
     
  9. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,995
    Location:
    the relative oasis of CFC
    Yeah. Roughly 10% of the population of Europe succumbed, iirc.

    But we did get the Peace of Westphalia, which many see as the start of establishing some rules about how to rule and how to behave between countries.

    And the atrocities reportedly also led to people starting to think of things like Rules of Engagement, bans on torture, etc. I suppose that's what one calls a silver lining?
     
  10. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Messages:
    7,924
    Location:
    Glasgnopolis, Grottland
    We are on course and should arrive at this point sometime in the 42nd Century.
     
  11. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    45,436
    Location:
    Shadowy Fringe of the Candy Industry
    Good thing I was already not planning to hold my breath.
     
  12. Broken_Erika

    Broken_Erika Nothing

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2004
    Messages:
    7,924
    Location:
    Glasgnopolis, Grottland
    The 42nd century will also reveal the answer to the greatest question ever asked.
     
  13. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,254
    Location:
    Scotland
    If "people" is defined exclusively as "rulers", maybe. The plebs, their freedom of conscience took a little bit longer to arrive.
     
  14. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    23,568
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    Or more specifically, aristocrats.
     
  15. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    45,436
    Location:
    Shadowy Fringe of the Candy Industry
    Nitpik...since rulers are a subset of aristocrats saying aristocrats there would actually be less specific.
     
  16. Lexicus

    Lexicus Deity

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2007
    Messages:
    23,568
    Location:
    Sovereign State of the Have-Nots
    Depends on the actual situation. Aristocrats might be a subset of rulers, or they might be overlapping categories. I suppose rather than "more specific" I should have said "minor correction", because we're talking about freedom of conscience for the upper strata of society, not literally the 'rulers' if by 'rulers' is meant 'heads of state.'
     
  17. Cheetah

    Cheetah Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2002
    Messages:
    7,995
    Location:
    the relative oasis of CFC
    The end of the war did see some protections for minority Christians having the right to worship within states where the ruler decided that the state religion was another denomination though, afaik? Baby steps, and all.
     
  18. Timsup2nothin

    Timsup2nothin Quad B

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2013
    Messages:
    45,436
    Location:
    Shadowy Fringe of the Candy Industry
    I was not suggesting that "aristocracy" was less accurate.
     
  19. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2007
    Messages:
    17,443
    Location:
    Wakanda Forever
    I can't help wondering whether it is any consolation to have a silver lining for your casket... as opposed to aluminum, or satin or sawdust or whatever...
     
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2005
    Messages:
    32,254
    Location:
    Scotland
    They were protected from being actively persecuted, but still commonly suffered crippling legal disability. I suppose "you can't vote, hold public office or own property" is a step forward on "we're going to burn you alive", but it's hard to work up much admiration of this settlement when the good people of Rhode Island and Pennsylvania had already established the sacred principle of "just do whatever, who even cares" without having to kill anyone.
     

Share This Page