Closing ranks: The onset of a clash of civilizations

:huh:

Okay, not always worse. But longer-term, and more widespread (I don't see why you regard the Thirty Years War as local).

Because Native Americans and Chinese didn't even know it was happening. It was a big deal in Europe, and not much of anything anywhere else. Thus, local.
 
Because Native Americans and Chinese didn't even know it was happening. It was a big deal in Europe, and not much of anything anywhere else. Thus, local.
Actually...
The war also had consequences abroad, as the European powers extended their rivalry via naval power to overseas colonies. In 1630, a Dutch fleet of 70 ships had taken the rich sugar-exporting areas of Pernambuco (Brazil) from the Portuguese, though it would lose them by 1654. Fighting also took place in Africa and Asia.

Ceylon was a case in point. The Portuguese conquered the Jaffna kingdom in the north of the island and kingdom of Kotte in the south. In the process, they caused widespread destruction, including that of the Koneswaram temple of Trincomalee in 1624 and Ketheeswaram temple, accompanied by an extensive campaign of destruction of 500 Hindu shrines, the Saraswathi Mahal Library, many Buddhist temples and libraries, and forced conversion of Hindus and Buddhists to Roman Catholicism. Thus, the rivalries of the Thirty Years' War and general hostilities of the Eighty Years' War were played out here. Phillip II and III of Portugal used forts built from the destroyed temples, including Fort Fredrick in Trincomalee, and others in southern Ceylon, such as Colombo and Galle Fort, to fight sea battles with the Dutch, Danish, French, and English. This was the beginning of the island's loss of sovereignty. Later the Dutch and English succeeded the Portuguese as colonial rulers of the island.
 

Do you think the local natives around these colonies knew that the squabbling white people were a part of some major conflagration? I don't, really, but I guess it's possible. I also would guess that beyond those who had been coopted or enslaved to work the plantations most didn't even know that the group of alien invaders had even changed.

You definitely caught me out though, I was thinking the thirty years war was longer ago than mid 1600s.
 
Do you think the local natives around these colonies knew that the squabbling white people were a part of some major conflagration? I don't, really, but I guess it's possible. I also would guess that beyond those who had been coopted or enslaved to work the plantations most didn't even know that the group of alien invaders had even changed.

You definitely caught me out though, I was thinking the thirty years war was longer ago than mid 1600s.
Well, the people on Ceylon who got force-converted probably had some idea, I'd think. ;)

But it's alright Tim. As TF says, most of the fighting did in fact happen in Germany -- though there were related, yet separate, wars happening in Poland-Lithuania, Russia, France, Spain, England, and Hungary too.

I've just been reading up on it all after too much EU4. :D
 
Well, the people on Ceylon who got force-converted probably had some idea, I'd think. ;)

But it's alright Tim. As TF says, most of the fighting did in fact happen in Germany -- though there were related, yet separate, wars happening in Poland-Lithuania, Russia, France, Spain, England, and Hungary too.

I've just been reading up on it all after too much EU4. :D

As I am currently deep into EU2 I can relate.
 
I take the 30YW (and I think I'm far from alone in this; in fact, I think it's the standard line) as the origin for freedom of conscience, establishment clause, etc. then secularization, etc. in the West. Eventually Eurooeans realized you can't force people's conscience with violence. It just makes them dig in more. Wasn't the loss of life just astonishing?

(Wiki says this :
The reduction of population in the German states was typically 25% to 40%)

At some point, you throw up your hands and say religiously motivated violence really isn't getting us anywhere.
 
I take the 30YW (and I think I'm far from alone in this; in fact, I think it's the standard line) as the origin for freedom of conscience, establishment clause, etc. then secularization, etc. in the West. Eventually Eurooeans realized you can't force people's conscience with violence. It just makes them dig in more. Wasn't the loss of life just astonishing?

(Wiki says this :


At some point, you throw up your hands and say religiously motivated violence really isn't getting us anywhere.
Yeah. Roughly 10% of the population of Europe succumbed, iirc.

But we did get the Peace of Westphalia, which many see as the start of establishing some rules about how to rule and how to behave between countries.

And the atrocities reportedly also led to people starting to think of things like Rules of Engagement, bans on torture, etc. I suppose that's what one calls a silver lining?
 
The 42nd century will also reveal the answer to the greatest question ever asked.
 
I take the 30YW (and I think I'm far from alone in this; in fact, I think it's the standard line) as the origin for freedom of conscience, establishment clause, etc. then secularization, etc. in the West. Eventually Eurooeans realized you can't force people's conscience with violence.
If "people" is defined exclusively as "rulers", maybe. The plebs, their freedom of conscience took a little bit longer to arrive.
 
Nitpik...since rulers are a subset of aristocrats saying aristocrats there would actually be less specific.

Depends on the actual situation. Aristocrats might be a subset of rulers, or they might be overlapping categories. I suppose rather than "more specific" I should have said "minor correction", because we're talking about freedom of conscience for the upper strata of society, not literally the 'rulers' if by 'rulers' is meant 'heads of state.'
 
If "people" is defined exclusively as "rulers", maybe. The plebs, their freedom of conscience took a little bit longer to arrive.
The end of the war did see some protections for minority Christians having the right to worship within states where the ruler decided that the state religion was another denomination though, afaik? Baby steps, and all.
 
Depends on the actual situation. Aristocrats might be a subset of rulers, or they might be overlapping categories. I suppose rather than "more specific" I should have said "minor correction", because we're talking about freedom of conscience for the upper strata of society, not literally the 'rulers' if by 'rulers' is meant 'heads of state.'

I was not suggesting that "aristocracy" was less accurate.
 
Yeah. Roughly 10% of the population of Europe succumbed, iirc.

But we did get the Peace of Westphalia, which many see as the start of establishing some rules about how to rule and how to behave between countries.

And the atrocities reportedly also led to people starting to think of things like Rules of Engagement, bans on torture, etc. I suppose that's what one calls a silver lining?
I can't help wondering whether it is any consolation to have a silver lining for your casket... as opposed to aluminum, or satin or sawdust or whatever...
 
The end of the war did see some protections for minority Christians having the right to worship within states where the ruler decided that the state religion was another denomination though, afaik? Baby steps, and all.
They were protected from being actively persecuted, but still commonly suffered crippling legal disability. I suppose "you can't vote, hold public office or own property" is a step forward on "we're going to burn you alive", but it's hard to work up much admiration of this settlement when the good people of Rhode Island and Pennsylvania had already established the sacred principle of "just do whatever, who even cares" without having to kill anyone.
 
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