CNES: The Flames of War (BETA)

[Daftpanzer]

I'm going to enjoy watching Thlayli backstab and subjugate all of them on my continent. Actually I'm not, its going to be sad to watch.

EDIT: OK, no more sore loser speak ^^

 

[Kraznaya]

Beta Balance Suggestion: Make Officers Give AA equal to that of ATK, DEF, STR, and EVA:

Why? Currently, Officers give ATK, DEF, STR [Air units' equivalent of ATK/DEF], and EVA. With an experienced officers' buffs, EVA can be increased to be nigh-unhittable whereas the corresponding ATK/DEF/STR value specifically for planes rolling to-hit, AA, is not increased at all. EVA on Fighters and Bombers thus becomes supremely overvalued as invincible units. With an AA buff equal to that of EVA, the balance between EVA and AA is equalized so that a battle between equal-level officers is the same as a battle between no officers at all.

But aren't officers too strong as is? No, officers offer significant tactical depth to the game. They require significant investment and leveling efficiently is an underestimated part of growing "economy" for maximum war strength. They have already undergone significant nerfs to their former potency, which would have undermined the balance of the game [such as giving inf AP and ARM]. In fact, this change primarily serves to limit the power of officers' current amazing synergy with air units to back to normal levels, providing counters with both ground and air AA units. As long as officers are at equal levels, the balance between bombers, fighters, and various AA ground units would be the same as with no officers at all.

But wouldn't this make ground AA way too powerful? No, this would not change the balance between ground AA and aircraft EVA, because with equal officers, the differential in ratios between them is the same as it was with no officers at all. Note that this suggestion applies only for units with an AA value already established. If the suggestion is that the balance between ground AA and aircraft EVA is too slanted toward ground AA [particularly infantry receiving AA bonuses further along in the tech tree, which is possible] without aircraft receiving uncounterable EVA bonuses, that is the balance that must be looked at with further testing.

Additional Suggestion: Make Planes Gain Fortification Bonuses in STR, EVA, and AA, but not Terrain Bonuses:

Planes operating on their home territory have the advantage of faster refueling and scrambling in the event of enemy attack. This would solve the problem of planes currently being likelier to have greater STR and EVA on the attack, due to their flanking bonus which would come with any well planned attack.

Addendum to Suggestion: Make flanking grant 1 AA as well to units with AA, as it is analogous to STR for air units and ATK/DEF for ground units in this situation.

 

[qoou]

Officers:
I disagree. In my opinion, either:

- Make officers not give air units any bonuses.
- Make officers give ground combat bonuses to ground units (ATK/DEF), and air combat bonuses to air units (AA). Eva to both means air will have just as tough a time hitting the ground as ground the air.
- "Note that this suggestion applies only for units with an AA value already established." this makes me disagree less.

Fortification:
- Meh. I don't know. Ok.

Flanking:
- Agreed.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

Honestly, I'm inclined to wait on rules changes until we see the stats for AA and mobile AA. We're playing the game blind, after all.

 

[Thlayli]

Kraz makes an interesting point. Officers are too much of a hassle, and are honestly gamebreaking at points. As people have also pointed out before, there are plenty of ways to abuse the Officer mechanic, like experience farming.

I don't think Officers should make it out of the beta at all. The ZPNES V system of individual units with a lot of combat victories/survivals randomly getting veterancy bonuses was better in my opinion.

 

[Lord_Iggy]

Of course, keeping track of that would be a bit of a nightmare... unless Crezth wrote some code to do it. So never mind, that does seem (to non-programmer Iggy) to be a possibility.

 

[Crezth]

Thlayli's proposed idea is the ideal, however the current system makes it viritually impossible to implement.

OK, Kraz. You've made your point. Officers will give an AA bonus to any unit with nonzero AA.

 

[ChiefDesigner]

How does this stack with later techs?

 

[qoou]

OK, Kraz. You've made your point. Officers will give an AA bonus to any unit with nonzero AA.

Does this include militia with the Heavy Emplacements tech?

 

[Crezth]

How does this stack with later techs?

Linearly.

Does this include militia with the Heavy Emplacements tech?

Yes.

 

[qoou]

Then, via the slippery slope argument, why not let officers boost STR as well?

 

[Kraznaya]

Then, via the slippery slope argument, why not let officers boost STR as well?

They do.

 

[Daftpanzer]

To share my thoughts: this is a compelling formula - province based combat, stylised graphics, wargaming, psuedo-ww2 era war machines - but I personally wasn't prepared properly. I came into this with a roleplaying angle. I now wish I had chosen a better (IE, logical) set-up, but by the same token I might not have chosen to play if I knew in advance.

What I mean is, I feel we've ended up with some bitter vendettas and a clash of egos over who is the better wargamer. And not much else. The ruleset works well but is a little complex, leading to the main issue of strictness over orders and hence punishment of some players. Some players are always going to be clueless - I can be clueless. We lack a thread of narrative, character, story-telling to smooth over these things. Which is important to me personally.

But I also know this is a BETA, and Crezth has done a fantastic (fantastic) job in getting all these updates out in a short amount of time.

 

[Kraznaya]

a ~~~story~~~

thlayli: hai you make cool little war game nes like zpnes v with sprite ok ok?

crezth: o hai um sure that sound cool k

thlayli: wait i like story hold on let me write story for your nes

crezth: umm, ok, here ill work on stuff im actually interested in like units and balance

thlayli: yay

crezth: wait don't you have your own storynes to work on and stories to write for other nes

thlayli: no story for sprite war game more important i must have story here

crezth: ok im done with launch mechanics i going to start now

thlayli: wait hold on story take long time hold on

crezth: ...

~one month later~

thlayli: o hai heres story

crezth: ok cool we have story now launch nes

storyists: o cool story nes we play

crezth: hihihi

storyists: hai can we write story for epic unit bonus

crezth: no this is war game sprite nes

storyists: ...

 

[Masada]

 

[Daftpanzer]

I've always been against the bonus-for-stories mechanic FYI;

EDIT: nm...

 

[Lord of Elves]

"Radio Theater" in New Daeacht​

The advent of commercial radio broadcast changed life very little for the average citizen in the Empire of New Daeacht, who still tilled the land of his farm under the leadership of the new, army-approved feudatory lord as he always had. However, for the aristocratic, landowning upper class (whose culling in the military coup was strictly a thinning of the herd) and the cosmopolitan elite of New Taelan, the radio proved to be a utilitarian invention if only for the purpose of continually reaffirming the greatness of the Imperator's state. The advent of radio plays and consequently the "art" of so-called radio theatre saw the production of such wildly-popular, weekly radio broadcasts as the "Adventures of Llerget and His Basque Manservant, Stenchvile". Here is recorded for posterity a transcript of one episode of that series.

[Narrator] We begin where we left off, as Llerget and Stenchvile face the terrifying and beautiful sirens of the Ice Sea.

[Llerget] I say Stenchvile, it is rather cold out here on the Ice Sea.

<Pause for audience laughter>

[Stenchvile] Might I offer you some of my resinous excretion, my lord? As you know, all Basques, being the product of experimentation in human-insect breeding, produce a resinous substance from their armpits once a day. It is a highly efficient insulator, my lord.

[Llerget] Your bodily functions are as convenient as they are disgusting, Stenchvile. Lather me!

<Canned sound effects, maybe have one of the techies smack their gums or just use a plunger next to the microphone>

[Llerget] Ahh yes, that is much better. Now we will be suitably prepared to leave this er, preparatory chamber, and face those dastardly ice sirens!

[Stenchvile] Of course, sir. I would toast you, but as you know, my kind cannot consume the same liquid substances as normal humans. Instead, I will be happy to celebrate our upcoming success by performing the ancestral mandible-clicking song of my people.

[Llerget] Not now, Stenchvile! There are sirens afoot.

<Singing noises go here, Vydmunt will know what to do>

[Siren Queen] So you have come to challenge the sirens of the Ice Sea! And you are... ?

[Llerget] They call me Llerget, milady. And this is my trusty Basque manservant (if he can be called a man), Stenchvile!

[Stenchvile] Charmed.

[Siren Queen] What a disgusting creature! How delightfully foul. Do you have a zoo for these... basques?

[Llerget] Why of course, milady. Providence has given to us that there is an entire country filled of his kind. They're all very quaint and charming when they aren't murdering the innocent and running roughshod over the natural superiority of the Tain race!

<Pause for audience laughter>

[Stenchvile] We aim to please, my lord.

[Siren Queen] How charming. But you have come here to challenge my domain! We must see to it that you are not successful.

[Llerget] I am sorry to disappoint milady, but like all lesser peoples, your kind must too come under the enlightened leadership and domain of our glorious Imperator, Vergetsich, hallowed be His name.

[Siren Queen] Then you shall have to fight my many mermen warriors!

[Stenchvile] That is a lot of mermen, milord!

[Llerget] What a mess we've gotten ourselves into this time, Stenchvile!

[Stenchvile] I'll say.

[Llerget] You'll speak when spoken to, maggot!

<Scene>

[Narrator] What a suspenseful ending! How will Llerget and Stenchvile survive the assault of the Siren Queen's mermen? Will Llerget ever get Stenchvile's resinous secretion off of his clothes? Tune in next week, for more of the Adventures of Llerget and His Basque Manservant, Stenchvile. Hail Vergetsich!

<Play "exit music">

 

[Kraznaya]

I've always been against the bonus-for-stories mechanic FYI;

Right, my point was that Crezth hasn't done anything to discourage stories; he just doesn't give tangible bonuses for writing them. I don't think that's an environment that's "hostile" to stories for people who actually want to write them.

Also, the story bits that Thlayli asked Crezth to tack on misrepresented, in my opinion, his own priorities in modding.

 

[Crezth]

To share my thoughts: this is a compelling formula - province based combat, stylised graphics, wargaming, psuedo-ww2 era war machines - but I personally wasn't prepared properly. I came into this with a roleplaying angle. I now wish I had chosen a better (IE, logical) set-up, but by the same token I might not have chosen to play if I knew in advance.

What I mean is, I feel we've ended up with some bitter vendettas and a clash of egos over who is the better wargamer. And not much else. The ruleset works well but is a little complex, leading to the main issue of strictness over orders and hence punishment of some players. Some players are always going to be clueless - I can be clueless. We lack a thread of narrative, character, story-telling to smooth over these things. Which is important to me personally.

It's a fair point and I'd like to note publicly that this is a beta test of the rule system and should be regarded as such. The full launch of CNES I may include a more cohesive narrative - no definitive word on that yet, though.

My original stance was to give Thlayli the reigns for establishing the narrative and then allowing the players to choose whether or not they buy into it.

But I also know this is a BETA, and Crezth has done a fantastic (fantastic) job in getting all these updates out in a short amount of time.

Hm. Really? I think they've been rather slow. Thanks, though.

 

[Thlayli]

No, your original stance was to have the playerbase cooperate on making a backstory, with me being the guy to piece everyone's ideas together. Daftpanzer and others immediately started contributing ideas.

Then, your second stance was to tell me to do it.

So please don't rewrite history.