Come Flip Off Cops Here

[dwaxe]

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1923125,00.html?iid=digg_share

Spoiler :

David Hackbart was mad, and he wanted to show it, but he didn't think he would end up in federal court protecting his right to a rude gesture and demanding that the city of Pittsburgh stop violating the First Amendment rights of its residents.

Hackbart, 34, was looking for a parking space on busy Murray Avenue in the Squirrel Hill neighborhood on April 10, 2006. Spotting one, he attempted to back into it, but the driver of the car behind him refused to back up and give him sufficient room. Hackbart responded in the classic way. "I stuck my hand out the window and gave him the finger to say 'Hey, jerk, thanks,' " says Hackbart. "That's all I was trying to say — 'Thanks, thanks a lot.' "

At that moment, a voice rang out telling Hackbart not to make the rude gesture in public. "So I was like, How dare that person tell me? They obviously didn't see what happened. Who are they to tell me what to say?" he says. "So I flipped that person off. And then I looked, and it was a city of Pittsburgh cop in his car right next to me."

That turned out to be police sergeant Brian Elledge, who happened to be passing in the other direction in his cruiser. Elledge whipped around and pulled Hackbart over, citing him under the state's disorderly-conduct law, which bans obscene language and gestures. And here's where the problem lies, says state American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) legal director Witold (Vic) Walczak: the middle finger and equivalent swear words are not legally obscene. In fact, courts have consistently ruled that foul language is a constitutionally protected form of expression. A famous 1971 Supreme Court case upheld the right of a young man to enter the Los Angeles County Court House wearing a jacket emblazoned with the words "F___ the Draft."

"The law is clear that people have the constitutional right to use profanity, especially when it comes to government officials, because that is a form of political speech," Walczak says. "But despite that, we have police officers regularly misapplying the law to punish people who offend them — that's really what it comes down to."

U.S. District Judge David Cercone ruled in March that the citation, along with the $119.75 court costs imposed by a city court, was clearly unconstitutional. The question, however, is whether the city has a pattern of tolerating this kind of constitutional violation. The ACLU says it found 188 cases from 2005 to 2007 in which people were cited under similar circumstances, despite an entry in the police department's training manual making clear that vulgar speech is not illegal.

The question was set to go to trial in Federal District Court last week, but the matter was delayed at the last moment while the two sides explored a settlement. The city's law department declined to comment on the case.

The problem is not confined to Pittsburgh. In 2007, a woman in Scranton, Pa., was cited for yelling obscenities at an overflowing toilet in her home — a tirade overheard by her neighbor, an off-duty police officer. She was later acquitted on constitutional grounds, and the city paid her a $19,000 settlement. "We probably handle a dozen of these cases every year," Walczak says. "We're actually negotiating with the state police right now, trying to force them to change their training and written materials to make clear you can't do this."

It is, of course, part of a larger question. The recent controversy over the arrest of historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. — who was charged with disorderly conduct in his home after police arrived to investigate an erroneous report of a burglary in progress — was cast in racial terms: a white officer distrusting a black homeowner. But Walczak says this issue seems to have more to do with a police officer being confronted by an angry and disrespectful person and turning disorderly-conduct laws into a "contempt of cop" law, as he puts it. "Frankly, I think having someone dropping the F-bomb is better than resisting arrest or taking a swipe at a police officer," Walczak says. "But what we're seeing too often is that police who are offended by a lack of respect, often manifested by profanity or cursing, will punish people for that."

Elledge and the city police department have consistently refused to comment on the case. But Jim Pasco, executive director of the Fraternal Order of Police, says police officers are not out to systematically punish people who mouth off. "There is certainly no substitute for good judgment on the street," says Pasco, whose organization represents officers nationwide, including Pittsburgh, "and if in the officer's judgment, maintenance of order is going to be preserved by giving a citation or making an arrest, then the officer is going to use his judgment to make that arrest or issue that citation."

Officers clearly have varying levels of tolerance for rudeness from the people they encounter, he says, but he expressed little sympathy for anyone making rude remarks to or gestures toward officers. "Police officers have better things to do than give people citations," he says. "And if people are doing things to distract police officers from doing those things, then they should be held accountable in some way."

But Hackbart, a paralegal who learned about court rulings on vulgar language in a communications-law class, says police should not be able to punish people by issuing citations they know to be unconstitutional. Elledge "shouldn't be allowed to conduct himself like that with no repercussions," he says. "Does everybody have to go through this to defend themselves against a bogus charge?"

The "F The Draft" case: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cohen_v._California

Was the punishment unconstitutional? Should police officers be more educated about constitutional issues?

 

[cardgame]

Should police officers be more educated about constitutional issues?

yes.

Was the punishment unconstitutional?

lemme read the article

edit: and, yes, obviously.

 

[Sharwood]

What cardgame said.

Oh, and "F___ the Police!"

 

[Kraznaya]

Kill the pigs

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Cops here are under scrutiny for being too quick to use Tasers on people and claim afterward that the suspect was resisting arrest or disorderly, or some other excuse. That's how a panicky non-English speaking Polish person got tasered at an airport - and died as a result.

So no, it's not smart to provoke a cop needlessly. Some of them have proven themselves incapable of sound judgment as to how much force (if any) should be used.

That said, I expect courtesy from a cop. The ones around here have never failed to offend in some way, whether from making inappropriate personal remarks, to openly speculating that a crime took place and who was to blame and how it happened - when there was no evidence whatsoever that the death was anything but natural.

If a cop has nothing better to do than arrest somebody for yelling at a malfunctioning object in their own house, that cop needs to get a different job.

And I'm sure this really has the drug pushers, pimps, murderers, thieves, and rapists just quaking with fear.

 

[MeteorPunch]

Take the settlement money out of the officer paychecks.

 

[Sharwood]

Take the settlement money out of the officer paychecks.

Then fire the officers for incompetence and abuse of power.

 

[Mise]

There'd be a lot of unemployed police officers if they did that. Which is no bad thing. I don't know whether the policing profession attracts people who abuse their power or if the police turns regular people into jerks that abuse their power, but either way, there are far too many power mad policemen.

 

[Sharwood]

There'd be a lot of unemployed police officers if they did that. Which is no bad thing. I don't know whether the policing profession attracts people who abuse their power or if the police turns regular people into jerks that abuse their power, but either way, there are far too many power mad policemen.

It's both. People who are not intelligent enough to gain power in other ways seek it out through jobs as police officers and prison guards. Additionally, they are trained to think of the populace they're supposed to be protecting as the enemy, which means that even the few that do it because they're idealists or just need a job to feed their families end up developing attitudes.

Then there's the simple fact that every law enforcement agency in history actually encourages certain crimes, as it guarantees them a job. They're also all bureaucracies, which naturally seek to increase their size, power, and wealth. None of these things are good on their own, but together, they are an exceedingly bad combination.

 

[MobBoss]

Why would I want to flip off cops?

Aside from all the 'Cop hate' in this thread, they do manage to catch a few real criminals from time to time you know...

In my opinion, people who intentionally try to piss off the police generally deserve whatever hassle they get.

But it occurs to me that apparently people expect cops to be...ah...rather non-human in their duty. That's simply not happening....

 

[Little Raven]

In my opinion, people who intentionally try to piss off the police generally deserve whatever hassle they get.

Even if that hassle is unconstitutional?

That's an odd statement, coming from a conservative.

 

[MobBoss]

Even if that hassle is unconstitutional?

That's an odd statement, coming from a conservative.

I dont endorse asshattery just for asshattery's sake.

Point being I believe in freedom of speech. I also believe there are ramifications for abusing it. A cop has a lot of leeway to deal with something like this before it crosses constitutional lines. If I were a cop and someone flipped me off intentionally, I would pull them over, and spend some time checking license and registration, check all their lights and signals, and maybe even give them a sobriety test for good measure since their odd behavior indicates something could be not right here.

Now, some people might try to call that harassment. In turn I simply point out that flipping the cop off gives them probable cause to crawl up your tailpipe with a microscope and ticket you for anything they find.

 

[Little Raven]

A cop has a lot of leeway to deal with something like this before it crosses constitutional lines.

Sure, but not as much as some cops seem to think, which is the problem.

If I were a cop and someone flipped me off intentionally, I would pull them over, and spend some time checking license and registration, check all their lights and signals, and maybe even give them a sobriety test for good measure since their odd behavior indicates something could be not right here.

That's all fine, but that's not what the suits are about. If you read the article, the cops in question are hitting people with things like 'disorderly conduct' charges for flipping off or cursing out a cop, when that's their only crime. And that's where the courts say the line is crossed. You may be an idiot for telling a cop to go **** himself, and it may give the cop an excuse to go over your car with a fine tooth comb, but according to the constitution says you have the right to do it without garnering a citation. Many cops disagree. I take it you side with the boys in blue?

 

[MobBoss]

That's all fine, but that's not what the suits are about. If you read the article, the cops in question are hitting people with things like 'disorderly conduct' charges for flipping off or cursing out a cop, when that's their only crime. And that's where the courts say the line is crossed. You may be an idiot for telling a cop to go **** himself, and it may give the cop an excuse to go over your car with a fine tooth comb, but according to the constitution says you have the right to do it without garnering a citation. Many cops disagree. I take it you side with the boys in blue?

Cops arrest. Courts convict. Sounds to me less an issue of what the cops are doing, but what the courts are upholding. Cops arrest people if the behavior of the person arrested meets the specifications of the charge they are being arrested or cited for. A lot of that is largely opinion based, and hinges on what a cop observes and also how the specific law or statute is written.

So to sum up, I dont see this as much a cop issue as I do a courts/prosector issue. It also hinges on the states themselves to ensure that the local laws are adjusted to reflect the SCOTUS ruling, and we all know thats not always done on a timely basis at all.

 

[Little Raven]

Cops arrest. Courts convict. Sounds to me less an issue of what the cops are doing, but what the courts are upholding.

The courts aren't upholding the charges. The charges are being dismissed as being unconstitutional. People then sue police departments for engaging in unconstitutional behavior....and win. Settlements end up being paid by the taxpayer. Courts are also saying police need better training. Police are saying they don't need better training - people need to shut up and do as they're told.

Ah well, it's on the taxpayers dime, so what do they care?

 

[MobBoss]

The courts aren't upholding the charges.

Actually, LR, if you read the OP, yes, the lower level courts ARE upholding the charges, and thats the problem. The guy in the OP was fined $119 bucks by a city court finding, and thats why he appealed it. If the local city court had just dropped it, nothing further would have happened.

Also, the OP story seems to confirm what I suggest in that:

"There is certainly no substitute for good judgment on the street," says Pasco, whose organization represents officers nationwide, including Pittsburgh, "and if in the officer's judgment, maintenance of order is going to be preserved by giving a citation or making an arrest, then the officer is going to use his judgment to make that arrest or issue that citation."

Like I said, its up to an officers judgement on this to make the arrest or citation, but its up to the COURT to decide if the officer was correct in his judgement.

By the way, the same guy also said this:

Officers clearly have varying levels of tolerance for rudeness from the people they encounter, he says, but he expressed little sympathy for anyone making rude remarks to or gestures toward officers. "Police officers have better things to do than give people citations," he says. "And if people are doing things to distract police officers from doing those things, then they should be held accountable in some way."

Which I hugely agree with.

Btw, this kind of reflects the problem:

But Hackbart, a paralegal who learned about court rulings on vulgar language in a communications-law class, says police should not be able to punish people by issuing citations they know to be unconstitutional.

As a paralegal myself, I need to point out that police dont punish.......courts do.

The charges are being dismissed as being unconstitutional.

Actually, convictions are being reversed on appeal.

People then sue police departments for engaging in unconstitutional behavior....and win.

I dont see a problem with that. Its the way things should be.

Settlements end up being paid by the taxpayer.

Well, they end up being paid by either the city or law enforcement agency, who then have to adjust their budget accordingly.

But again....thats as it should be.

Courts are also saying police need better training. Police are saying they don't need better training - people need to shut up and do as they're told.

Thats not what I got from the story in the OP.

Ah well, it's on the taxpayers dime, so what do they care?

Heh, nice strawman. I think part of the problem is in the charge itself. How far is too far and what actually is or is not disorderly conduct. Nice link in the OP to this story that talks about it: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1912777,00.html

 

[Sharwood]

Cops arrest people if the behavior of the person arrested meets the specifications of the charge they are being arrested or cited for. A lot of that is largely opinion based, and hinges on what a cop observes and also how the specific law or statute is written.

It all too often hinges on what a cop feels like doing. And if they feel like abusing the very laws they're supposed to uphold, they'll do it. I'd link you to a recent story about cops raping a women who called them for help after being attacked, but it was a video, and it was pretty graphic, even blurred.

Obviously, none of this is anywhere near that bad. But it is still pure harassment for cops to charge people with offences that THEY HAVEN'T COMMITTED purely because they pissed the cop off. Which is exactly what is being described in this thread.

No-one - well, no-one sensible - has a problem with cops actually doing their damn jobs, and arresting criminals. It's when they abuse their power to arrest people who offend them, beat the crap out of peaceful protestors, taze anyone they feel like as many times as they feel like, and just generally commit acts of "arsehattery," that we have a problem with them.

 

[illram]

A robust and independent department for handling citizen complaints against police officers would go a long way in dealing with cops acting like petulant little children. This unfortunately hardly exists anywhere.

edit: just remembered this story. Cop runs a stop sign and hits pedestrian, gets called out on it by a bystander, gives bystander a ticket and threatens to arrest him. Nothing happens. Typical.

Spoiler :

Cop threatens to ‘harass’ mishap witness

Driver says he saw NOPD officer run a stop sign, hit a pedestrian in French Quarter
by Richard A. Webster

Josh Wexler shows the ticket he received for not wearing a seat belt after he confronted a New Orleans Police officer regarding an earlier altercation between a pedestrian and the officer. (Photo by Frank Aymami)
Josh Wexler shows the ticket he received for not wearing a seat belt after he confronted a New Orleans Police officer regarding an earlier altercation between a pedestrian and the officer. (Photo by Frank Aymami)
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Josh Wexler, a 30-year-old piano player, said he saw a New Orleans police officer run a stop sign and strike a pedestrian with his car in the French Quarter at 12:45 p.m. Jan. 29.

When the pedestrian raised his hands as if to say, “What are you doing?” the officer rushed out of his vehicle and “angrily” grabbed the startled man, Wexler said.

The officer in question, William Torres, reportedly forced the pedestrian to place his hands on the hood of his squad car and reached for his handcuffs as if to arrest him.

Wexler, who was driving behind the police officer, decided to intervene.

He got out of his vehicle and told the officer he saw him run the stop sign and hit the pedestrian. Wexler told Torres he had no right to arrest the man.

At this point, Torres reportedly allowed the pedestrian to go free, directed his attention to Wexler and asked, “Do you want a ticket?”

“A ticket for what?” Wexler said. “I didn’t do anything.”

“It’s a simple question. Yes or no. Do you want a ticket?” Torres reportedly responded.

Wexler said he told the officer he had nothing more to say and walked back to his car where he wrote down Torres’ name and badge number.

Torres followed him.

“You want to write down my name? I'll show you I can write too. Give me your license, insurance, and registration. I know who to harass,” Torres reportedly said.

Wexler provided Torres with the information but refused to answer further questions.

“If you don’t answer my questions, you are going to jail,” Torres reportedly threatened.

Eventually, Torres wrote Wexler a ticket for failure to wear a seat belt and left the scene.

A woman who works in the area at the time of the incident verified Wexler’s account to CityBusiness but refused to provide her name for fear of police retaliation.

The encounter left Wexler as stunned as the pedestrian. He said he believed Torres attempted to intimidate both of them in an attempt to cover up his own wrongdoing.

Wexler said his first impulse was to file a complaint with the NOPD’s Public Integrity Bureau, but he doubted the independence and effectiveness of the unit. If the police department can’t be trusted to treat citizens with respect, how can it be trusted to investigate allegations of abuse against its own officers, Wexler said.

Even his attorney, Sam Dalton, tried to discourage him from filing a report.

“I’ve seen what happens when people bring complaints,” Dalton said. “The police try to intimidate them from continuing their protests. It’s a very uncomfortable situation. One thing I know is that this officer won’t be punished.”

Despite his misgivings and fears of police retaliation, Wexler filed a complaint with the PIB and sent a letter to District Attorney Leon Cannizzaro alerting him of the incident.

“It appears to me that a New Orleans Police Officer (sic) should not be allowed to cover up such an event by filing a false report, giving a false ticket and detaining a citizen without cause,” Wexler wrote to Cannizzaro. “I am bringing this to your attention in the hopes that the new district attorney’s office will do what is necessary to see that this type of police behavior does not reoccur.”

The NOPD declined repeated requests for comment.

Incidents such as this tarnish not only the reputation of the police department but of the entire criminal justice system and discourage witnesses and victims from participating in court cases, Cannizzaro said.

“We’ve had some very serious cases where we had to go back and do some damage control to bring witnesses around because there were problems with the way they were treated when they had the initial encounter with the police officers,” Cannizzaro said. “It’s important to make sure we treat witnesses and victims with dignity and respect. I preach that to our assistants — treat them like you’d want a family member to be treated.”

If police officers commit criminal acts when dealing with the public, the DA’s office will not hesitate to prosecute them, Cannizzaro said.

“I’ve had that discussion with (Superintendent Warren Riley) and he is fully supportive. He’s not interested in keeping people on that force who don’t want to go out there and do the right thing and help this community. There have been a large number of officers fired under Warren Riley’s administration, and he quite candidly thinks there are going to be more firings that will happen in the future because he thinks this is a reoccurring problem.”

The majority of reports filed with the PIB are “he said/she said” situations pitting an officer’s word against a citizen’s, said Rafael Goyeneche, president of the Metropolitan Crime Commission. Unless a witness is willing to come forward, it is difficult to determine guilt. But that shouldn’t discourage a citizen from filing a complaint, he said.

Citizen complaints against an officer, even if they remain unresolved, become a permanent part of his record. If an officer accumulates a significant number of complaints that illustrate a clear pattern of negative behavior it can result in increased supervision or additional training, Goyeneche said.

“I know citizens feel frustrated when they file these complaints and nothing comes from it. But even if the officer isn’t disciplined, I still think it’s valuable and important and significant for citizens who feel they were mistreated if for no other reason than it creates a track record on officers who may have behavioral issues,” Goyeneche said.

But police officers should not be condemned as corrupt simply because someone filed a report against them, said Jim Gallagher, legislative chairman of the New Orleans Fraternal Order of Police.

“Police officers are citizens of the United States and just like everybody else they have due process rights,” Gallagher said. “If there is no evidence against an officer, should he be disciplined anyway? There’s no question that it has become a standard defense attorney tactic to have their clients make a complaint against an officer. It’s part of an accepted strategy now.”

Police who work in special tactical units designed to prevent crime often use aggressive techniques that may invite citizen complaints, but it doesn’t mean they are acting unprofessionally, Gallagher said.

“Perfectly innocent citizens will be stopped in high-crime areas by these proactive aggressive units and citizens don’t like being stopped for nothing so they will make complaints. This is the nature of their work.”

The public perception remains, however, that the NOPD is incapable of policing itself, and that is why the city created an independent police monitor, Goyeneche said.

One of the monitor’s tasks will be to audit the PIB’s internal investigations to ensure citizen complaints are handled effectively and officers are held accountable.

The monitor will be part of the Inspector General’s Office. It is in the initial planning stages and is not expected to be operational for several months.

But the PIB and independent police monitor can only do so much, Goyeneche said. It is up to the NOPD to instill in its officers the need to treat the public with respect at all times. A bank teller or a cab driver can afford to have a bad day, he said, but a police officer cannot.

“The NOPD is a paramilitary organization and it has to be drilled into their heads that they don’t have the luxury of taking out their frustrations on citizens, because those citizens will tell their story and it will have a ripple effect throughout the community,” Goyeneche said. “This is where training and discipline comes in.”

For the NOPD to be successful, it has to have the trust of the community so people feel comfortable reporting crimes and acting as witnesses. But when people feel abused by the police, as Wexler alleges, it destroys that trust, Goyeneche said.

“You can’t condemn an entire department by a few isolated examples of police misconduct. But they’re indicative of the public’s perception of law enforcement,” he said. “The NOPD is trying to develop a better relationship with the community and (incidents like Wexler’s) don’t foster that image. People won’t cooperate with the police if they feel they can’t trust them. They’ll say, ‘What’s the point?’”

And that’s exactly what Dalton said when Wexler asked if he should file a complaint: “What’s the point?”

“I don’t know where the police leaders are or what they’re doing, but they certainly aren’t doing anything to improve the public behavior of the police,” Dalton said. “And I don’t think the independent police monitor will make a difference. There’s a hidden undercurrent of behavior in the police department that demands they protect each other. They never learn. In order to get the respect of the citizens, they have to give respect.”

Wexler said he struggled with his decision to file a report with the PIB. After the incident, he said that every time a police car appeared in his rearview mirror he feared the worst. But in the end, he decided it was important to take a stand despite the risks.

When he told people what happened, he said the reaction was mixed. Some were shocked an officer would act in such an unlawful and brazen manner in the middle of the French Quarter during broad daylight. Others were unimpressed and said they heard of similar stories of police officers bullying citizens and acting as if they were above the law.

“I think it’s symptomatic at least in certain districts of a really poorly run police department with no accountability,” Wexler said. “I think that a portion of the crime in this city is a direct result of cops not having much interest in engaging with criminals, but (they) find it easier to cruise around doing what they want to do and harassing citizens who get in their way.”

Looking back on the experience, Wexler said he doesn’t regret intervening but would think twice about doing it again.

“Sam (Dalton, his attorney) said if something like this happens again to keep driving. But I wasn’t really thinking about the repercussions when it happened.”

 

[Elrohir]

I don't think flipping off a cop is enough to warrant disorderly conduct charges. But screaming profanities at him? You bet. So while I think a cop arresting a lady for cursing out her toilet is over the line - but if you're screaming those profanities in the cop's face, then I expect you'd get arrested, and rightly so.

 

[MobBoss]

It all too often hinges on what a cop feels like doing. And if they feel like abusing the very laws they're supposed to uphold, they'll do it. I'd link you to a recent story about cops raping a women who called them for help after being attacked, but it was a video, and it was pretty graphic, even blurred.

Yeah, I get it. Sometimes cops go bad. That happens across the spectrum among any occupation however because people are, well, people. However, to imply that ALL cops do that is simply just a huge ad hom. I certainly dont think all cops would abuse the laws they are supposed to uphold, but I recognize that a small minimum of them might very well. But then again, a small minimum of any occupation are going to corrupt or criminal to some degree.

Obviously, none of this is anywhere near that bad. But it is still pure harassment for cops to charge people with offences that THEY HAVEN'T COMMITTED purely because they pissed the cop off. Which is exactly what is being described in this thread.

Please see the link I added in for the disorderly conduct charge. Again, I dont see the problem inasmuch with the cop as I do with the courts who are supposed to rule on such matters. A cop should be able to arrest someone who (in their opinion) meets the criteria of disorderly conduct, and its the courts job to determine of that charge is legitimate or not. Once again, being arrested or cited is not punishment.

No-one - well, no-one sensible - has a problem with cops actually doing their damn jobs, and arresting criminals. It's when they abuse their power to arrest people who offend them, beat the crap out of peaceful protestors, taze anyone they feel like as many times as they feel like, and just generally commit acts of "arsehattery," that we have a problem with them.

Again, I ask...whats to be gained by offending a cop? I repost this comment for you to consider:

Officers clearly have varying levels of tolerance for rudeness from the people they encounter, he says, but he expressed little sympathy for anyone making rude remarks to or gestures toward officers. "Police officers have better things to do than give people citations," he says. "And if people are doing things to distract police officers from doing those things, then they should be held accountable in some way."

Whats to be gained by purposefully pissing a cop off? The answer is: not much, and its pretty much a lose/lose situation all around.

You make it sound like cops taze people and give tickets needlessly because its fun for them. I dont think thats the case at all, and in fact, I think its a gross misrepresentation of what the reality of the situation is.