Constructive Dialogue Concerning Racism

Gary Childress

Student for and of life
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I didn't see a thread like this anywhere else in the forum and it seems to be a real issue in the US from the looks of things, so maybe it is a good time to start talking about racism, does it exist to a large enough extent in the US that it is causing serious problems and if so, how can it be overcome?

To start off here is an article (in spoilers due to length). I don't know how important the article is or how accurate, but maybe it's a start.

Spoiler :
The new threat: 'Racism without racists'

By John Blake, CNN

updated 9:32 AM EST, Thu November 27, 2014

In a classic study on race, psychologists staged an experiment with two photographs that produced a surprising result.

They showed people a photograph of two white men fighting, one unarmed and another holding a knife. Then they showed another photograph, this one of a white man with a knife fighting an unarmed African-American man.

When they asked people to identify the man who was armed in the first picture, most people picked the right one. Yet when they were asked the same question about the second photo, most people -- black and white -- incorrectly said the black man had the knife.

Even before the Ferguson grand jury's decision was announced, leaders were calling once again for a "national conversation on race." But here's why such conversations rarely go anywhere: Whites and racial minorities speak a different language when they talk about racism, scholars and psychologists say.

The knife fight experiment hints at the language gap. Some whites confine racism to intentional displays of racial hostility. It's the Ku Klux Klan, racial slurs in public, something "bad" that people do.

But for many racial minorities, that type of racism doesn't matter as much anymore, some scholars say. They talk more about the racism uncovered in the knife fight photos -- it doesn't wear a hood, but it causes unsuspecting people to see the world through a racially biased lens.

It's what one Duke University sociologist calls "racism without racists." Eduardo Bonilla-Silva, who's written a book by that title, says it's a new way of maintaining white domination in places like Ferguson.

"The main problem nowadays is not the folks with the hoods, but the folks dressed in suits," says Bonilla-Silva.

"The more we assume that the problem of racism is limited to the Klan, the birthers, the tea party or to the Republican Party, the less we understand that racial domination is a collective process and we are all in this game."

As people talk about what the grand jury's decision in Ferguson means, Bonilla-Silva and others say it's time for Americans to update their language on racism to reflect what it has become and not what it used to be.

. . . [snip] . . .


'I don't see color'

It's a phrase some white people invoke when a conversation turns to race. Some apply it to Ferguson. They're not particularly troubled by the grand jury's decision to not issue an indictment. The racial identities of Darren Wilson, the white police officer, and Michael Brown, the black man he killed, shouldn't matter, they say. Let the legal system handle the decision without race-baiting. Justice should be colorblind.

Science has bad news, though, for anyone who claims to not see race: They're deluding themselves, say several bias experts. A body of scientific research over the past 50 years shows that people notice not only race but gender, wealth, even weight.

. . . [snip] . . .

'But I have black friends'

In the movie "The Godfather," the character of Michael Corleone, played by Al Pacino, hatches an audacious plan to kill a mobster and a crooked cop who tried to kill his father. Michael's elders scoff at his plans because they believe his judgment is clouded by anger. But in a line that would define his ruthless approach to wielding power, Michael tells them:

"It's not personal. It's strictly business."

When some whites talk about racism, they think it's only personal -- what one person says or does to another. But many minorities and people who study race say racism can be impersonal, calculating, devoid of malice -- such as Michael Corleone's approach to power.

"The first thing we must stop doing is making racism a personal thing and understand that it is a system of advantage based on race," says Doreen E. Loury, director of the Pan African Studies program at Arcadia University, near Philadelphia.

Loury says racism "permeates every facet of our societal pores."

. . . [snip] . . .

'Who you calling a racist?'

When protests erupted in Ferguson after the shooting this summer, various white and black residents tried to talk about race, but such discussions didn't bear fruit because of another reason:

People refuse to admit their biases, research has consistently shown.

Ross, author of "Everyday Bias," cited a Dartmouth College survey where misinformed voters were presented with factual information that contradicted their political biases.

There were voters, for example, who were disappointed with President Obama's economic record and believed he hadn't added any jobs during his presidency. They were shown a graph of nonfarm employment over the prior year that included a rising line indicating about a million jobs had been added.

"They were asked whether the number of people with jobs had gone up, down, or stayed about the same," Ross wrote. "Many, looking straight at the graph, said down."

Ross says it's even more difficult to get smart people to admit bias.

"The smarter we are, the more self-confident we are, and the more successful we are, the less likely we're going to question our own thinking," Ross says.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/26/us/ferguson-racism-or-racial-bias/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


Thoughts?

NOTE: this will be a RD thread. It doesn't mean we must agree with everything or anything in the thread but please let's try not to resort to personal attacks. Let's keep things as civil as possible. Thanks.
 
Isn't racism in the US just, or mostly just, a hangover from slavery?

If you're going to enslave people, don't you have to devalue them as human beings?

And, looking at it with hindsight, don't you have to devalue people who your ancestors enslaved?

Isn't there a self-fulfilling prophecy aspect to this, too? If you treat people badly, won't they tend to behave badly?

Maybe it will all sort itself out equitably in the long run. Say, another three or four hundred years.
 
Racism also involves the Native North Americans since centuries ago, and also people from Central America who cross the border.
 
Good OP article.

I think in some manner everyone is racist. I know I am. Because in some manner everyone stereo-types people based on appearances as long as we don't kinda get to know them / feel some kind of compassion and start to see them as actual persons.
Morgan Freeman is not a black person to me- He is Morgan Freeman. And my black friend also is not black to me - he is my friend. That black dude over there though - yeah he is black. Just as that white dude over there is so white.
Race is such a major factor appearance-wise for historic, social-economic, cultural and plain visual reasons that there is just no way around attaching some kind of prejudice to race, for now.
The best we probably can do (aside from positive discrimination) is to raise awareness and acceptance of that mind issue of ours and by this perhaps gradually improve.
Though to be painfully honest - some parts of 'black culture' like certain articulation-patterns really are not helping.
 
Racism also involves the Native North Americans since centuries ago, and also people from Central America who cross the border.

That's why I said "mostly just".

Isn't the mindset of the average North American overwhelmingly directed towards African Americans when the word "racism" is mentioned?

I thought it was. But pardon me if I'm wrong.
 
That's why I said "mostly just".

Isn't the mindset of the average North American overwhelmingly directed towards African Americans when the word "racism" is mentioned?

I thought it was. But pardon me if I'm wrong.
That's mostly an American issue. That's not to say there aren't Canadians who have hostility toward black people, but for the most part racists in Canada tend to direct their bigotry toward aboriginal people, the Chinese, or people from India or Pakistan.

Most of the black people I've ever met have been either recently-arrived immigrants or refugees from various places in Africa (ie. Zimbabwe, Egypt, Sierra Leone).
 
Yes. I thought about referencing specifically US citizens there. And then I didn't.

Canada does seem to be remarkably different.
 
That's a really good article, Gary.

I think there's a couple of things in play that are known but lesser appreciated: In our society you need energy to keep afloat to maintain respect and make money. Can't be energetic and depressed at the same time because that's a contradiction of terms. Can't be energetic and too contemplative or you burn out.

Stereotypes are energy saving measures. Snap judgments save us the tiring grind of contemplation. So to stay economically competitive, once we've found our place, we're incentivized to be as judgmental as we can get away with.

Meanwhile, depression comes, among other reasons, from gaining new information/values/mental stuff that demands you change your behavior. To change your behavior you need to adjust your personality, your body, rewire parts of your mind. You can't do that and peak perform at the same time! You need to use those resources to adjust. And you also need to slow down to make sure you aim your new trajectory well.


So asking people to give up their racism, racism they don't even want to have, is asking them to slow down, get tired, feel lousy, lose their momentum, lose their hustle, lose on some level their Americanness go-go get'em power.


Most people I know who juggle the emotionally precarious complexities of critically recognizing their privilege in the system but are still crushing it in career/school are on some kind of prescription or similar. The ones who don't have to shut out the pain of the world or take on ideologies that blame victims or say it's okay because "economic efficiency" (which it's not, not if you got past micro 101).

Anyway... how do we fix it? How do we allow people to accept (months/couple years') depression and losing their hustle in a competitive, scary world? That's the obstacle. We're asking people to feel serious pain to change for people they don't even know are worth feeling pain for.
 
I really would give you a cookie for this very well-written post, Hygro.

As with everything - time is money, time is energy spent and investing into becoming a non-racist in every way possible, is it something you can put in a CV? Of course, not.

However, there are people who like to contemplate naturally. They like to think, to analyze, they arrive at more tolerance first.

And then there is other group of people who just do. They are workers, not thinkers. Approaching this group is harder, because you really have to give them any eventual benefit if they change their rationale.
 
Anyway... how do we fix it? How do we allow people to accept (months/couple years') depression and losing their hustle in a competitive, scary world? That's the obstacle. We're asking people to feel serious pain to change for people they don't even know are worth feeling pain for.

I have to agree with this. It's a part of why people don't like having to tackle these issues. Why should I care about so and so, when I have my own problems, some of which society should be caring about, but don't?

It gets murkier when you consider how 'privilege' can intersect in different ways. Should a 1st generation 'white' immigrant (from, say, Russia) living on the minimum wage, think that he has it better than an upper-middle class African-American? Should a lesbian Asian think she has it better than a straight Hispanic male? And so on. And I don't think these things can be easily quantified. I saw a test of sorts online a while back, where you can determine how "much" privilege you have, with different variables being given different values - for instance, if you're white you get +20 privilege points, if you're a woman you get -7, etc. I thought it was ridiculous, frankly, because it was trying to simplify a whole range of complex issues into some simple thing a toddler could understand. Well, and I was also pissed that being Asian gave me a decent amount of privilege points.

Which, I suppose, brings me to my next point. Being an Asian-American, it's unsurprising that my thoughts on racism tend to revolve around that. I cannot speak for all Asians here, of course, given the wide diversity we have, but I feel like a good number of Asian-Americans aren't happy with how the dialogue on racism in America tends to only deal with a black vs. white binary. I've heard it several times now, about how an Asian-American activist, when she was in college and took a course on race in America, and a student asked the (black) professor what sort of racism and discrimination Asians face, and the professor just said something very brief about Asians being the model minority and not really facing anymore racism before moving on. People like to think that racism towards Asians is over, thanks in part to the model minority myth, and while I suppose overall Asians don't have it as "bad" as African-Americans do, I don't think we're quite out of the woods yet. Asians can and do still get attacked and assaulted for being Asian - for instance it's been floating around the news a bit about how Mark Wahlberg assaulted an Asian man when he was younger and basically got off the hook, and there's always an attack on a Sikh or Persian or who knows what every now and then because they're mistaken for being Muslim. There's also the fact that the majority of Asian kids are being bullied with racist attitudes and slurs by other kids (which shocked me when I found out, given that I grew up in a pretty diverse area, so I never saw a lot of racism-based bullying against Asians). One of the biggest incidents in recent memory would be the Rodney King/LA riots, where Asian-Americans (particularly Korean-Americans) suffered the majority of property damage (though, sadly, I feel as if most people don't realize this, and only think of the Rodney King incident in terms of, again, black vs. white).

There's plenty of positive discrimination as well, which is more destructive than people realize; when people expect you to be always excellent and high-achieving, it puts you in a dilnema - if an Asian does well in school or their career, people will simply think of you as the hardworking, diligent Asian stereotype, ignoring and dismissing any personal talents or struggles you went through - to them, you're just another hardworking Asian, not an individual; do well in an area not typically associated with Asians - sports, the arts, whatever - and people will still think of you as a hardworking, diligent Asian, or see you as a role model for Asians, someone who broke out the mold of the diligent, science-obsessed Asian robot; and if you don't do as well, then people think you're not really Asian, that you're something of anomaly, that something's wrong with you. It's why mental illnesses are the highest among Asian-Americans, because there's a lot of subconscious stress from trying to live up to these ideals; and why no one cares about the fact that Southeast Asians (particularly Cambodian and Laotian Americans) have the highest high school dropout rates in the nation - even more than blacks and Hispanics - because they're all subsumed into this huge, Asian blob. And of course there's always the issues with media portrayals with Asians, which is changing *slightly*, but not enough - Asian women are sexualized as some sort of feminine ideal (I can't speak of it much since I'm a straight guy, but I know a lot of Asian girls aren't happy with the fetishization, and how they have to deal with creeps because of this), while Asian guys are either asexual, passive nerds or asexual martial artists. It's a bit said, I think, when the Asian-American community is ecstatic about seeing an Asian-American male having a sexual relationship with a non-Asian woman.

And that all ties in to seeing the Asian as a kind of "other", which has been a core of Asian-American racism since it all started way back. When portrayed "positively", we're an exotic, one-with-nature, hodgepodge of oriental stereotypes; "negatively", we're passive, emotionless robots.

Now, of course, that's not to say there's racism the other way around. Asians can be pretty racist towards, well, everybody, including other Asians. They'll think that blacks (and Hispanics) are obnoxious and rude, mooching off Affirmative Action to the detriment of Asians. And they'll think white people are also obnoxious in their own way, disrespectful, and superficial. And I dunno what they'd think of native Americans, though; my father did interact with a few native Americans during his lifetime, but he didn't seem to have a lot of discrimination if any against them, and he remarked sympathetically that they all seemed very depressed and frustrated. Concerning the racism Asians have against blacks, anyways, it ties in with the "positive" discrimination towards Asians; the message some Asians are getting is that America tells them, we're helping the blacks but not you because we don't think you need help. There's also the cultural differences, which seemed to have played a huge role in the Rodney King riots - before all that happened, during their interactions with each other, Asian-Americans viewed blacks as aggressive, boorish, and ultimately impolite, while blacks thought the Asians were being unfriendly, cold, and ultimately impolite; and all that erupted into the orgy of violence and looting that happened. My father, despite having spent a couple of years growing up in a mostly black neighborhood - i.e. he has a decent idea of what African-Americans go through, and what their culture is like - still has these sort of discriminatory attitudes.



To conclude, I don't know how these issues can be resolved. Perhaps, we should look to how we can better coexist, and try to understand other people. Befriend people who aren't like you, or, at least, try to understand them. Because no two people handle racism the same way. For instance, me and my friends, growing up, we used the the c-word liberally (I guess the forum won't let me type it out fully, but you probably know what it is, if not, look it up) to describe ourselves (often self-deprecatingly) or anything relating to Asia (we'd refer to Chinese language class as "chinkinese class", for example); but older 2nd and 3rd generation Asians, or those that grew up in an area with a lot of racial tensions, they generally feel "" is the Asian equivalent of the n-word. And no two "types" of racism work the same. As the OP article said, racism isn't just evil, faceless white a-holes beating up and lynching a black guy. It's a lot of different things.

Blah, I spent too much time typing this. Hopefully it's useful to someone.
 
Oh. Poor "white" people! With nothing to complain about how other "ethnicities" treat them!

And even if they did, they wouldn't dare.
 
Should a 1st generation 'white' immigrant (from, say, Russia) living on the minimum wage, think that he has it better than an upper-middle class African-American? Should a lesbian Asian think she has it better than a straight Hispanic male? And so on. And I don't think these things can be easily quantified.

As they shouldn't be.

Everyone has stereotypes. Those are probably not going anyway anytime soon, especially racially inspired ones. The key, IMO, to fighting racism in America, is to put more funding towards building better communities - by investing in infrastructure, schools, transit, good living spaces, and so on. Give people other things to focus on - not race. Give them livable communities. Make them feel like they're a part of something.

A large part of the problem is a socio-economic one. And socio-economic problems are far easier to fight than cultural ones - if you're willing to spend money where it's needed. And I realize that in America, getting funding for social projects can be hard sell, but if we're talking about actual solutions.. That would be a very good start.
 
As they shouldn't be.

Everyone has stereotypes. Those are probably not going anyway anytime soon, especially racially inspired ones. The key, IMO, to fighting racism in America, is to put more funding towards building better communities - by investing in infrastructure, schools, transit, good living spaces, and so on. Give people other things to focus on - not race. Give them livable communities. Make them feel like they're a part of something.

A large part of the problem is a socio-economic one. And socio-economic problems are far easier to fight than cultural ones - if you're willing to spend money where it's needed. And I realize that in America, getting funding for social projects can be hard sell, but if we're talking about actual solutions.. That would be a very good start.

Real Universal Health Care would be a step in the right direction toward bridging the divide. So called "Obama Care" seems like a step in the right direction toward UHC.
 
The initial efforts to end racism seem to start with color blindness and affirmative action. We already know affirmative action doesn't completely cut it, but I would say color blindness doesn't, either. There are 16 chromosomes that determine race. The fact is, we are genetically different. Instead of pretending to be alike except for skin color, the next step is to be more honest about our differences. For example, is it racist to say black people are more prone to sickle cell anemia and less prone to osteoporosis? Or even sunburn? No--that's just the way it is. No one's denying our skin color is different. A black guy can wear clothes that would look ghastly on a white guy, for a simple reason: his skin is a different color, and the colors clash. Why be color-blind to that? Brown slacks look better on a tall white guy than on a short white guy--that is equally as genetic, yet on that one racism never enters the conversation.
 
There's also the cultural differences, which seemed to have played a huge role in the Rodney King riots - before all that happened, during their interactions with each other, Asian-Americans viewed blacks as aggressive, boorish, and ultimately impolite, while blacks thought the Asians were being unfriendly, cold, and ultimately impolite; and all that erupted into the orgy of violence and looting that happened
Although it's also worth noting that the LAPD pretty consciously neglected to deploy in Asian neighbourhoods in favour of white neighbourhoods, which lead many looters to attack Asian businesses out of opportunity rather than concious preference, so institutional racism also plays a part in allowing these lingering distrusts to express themselves as violence.
 
Although it's also worth noting that the LAPD pretty consciously neglected to deploy in Asian neighbourhoods in favour of white neighbourhoods, which lead many looters to attack Asian businesses out of opportunity rather than concious preference, so institutional racism also plays a part in allowing these lingering distrusts to express themselves as violence.

Hmm. That does seem to have been the case:

Due to their low social status and language barrier, Korean Americans received very little if any aid or protection from police authorities.[55] David Joo, a manager of the gun store, said, "I want to make it clear that we didn't open fire first. At that time, four police cars were there. Somebody started to shoot at us. The LAPD ran away in half a second. I never saw such a fast escape. I was pretty disappointed." Carl Rhyu, a participant in the Korean immigrants' armed response to the rioting, said, "If it was your own business and your own property, would you be willing to trust it to someone else? We are glad the National Guard is here. They're good backup. But when our shops were burning we called the police every five minutes; no response."[54] At a shopping center several miles north of Koreatown, Jay Rhee, who estimated that he and others fired five hundred shots into the ground and air, said, "We have lost our faith in the police. Where were you when we needed you?" Korean Americans were ignored.[citation needed] Koreatown was isolated from South Central Los Angeles, yet despite such exclusion it was the heaviest hit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1992_Los_Angeles_riots#Riots_and_Korean-Americans
 
Good article in the OP but people are lying to themselves if they think cold and calculated racism is anything but personal. Just like the quote from the Godfather is a lie. As if it could be anything but personal. That whole idea is just stupid. I don't know how people have bought onto it.

Edit: Actually, I think I might. That view is a convenient whitewash of some guilt. If the racism can be devoid of malice, if people are merely flotsam and jetsam swept along by society, it excuses some clever academics of intentional malice when they've reaped about as much privilege as one can reasonably hope for. They can then champion from their perch with cleaner conscience. Same with successful readers who fancy themselves complicated. It also excuses partially from guilt returned malice from those who are victimized and disadvantaged. Martin Luther King rejected this cop out a half century ago. We should reject it now.
 
Good article in the OP but people are lying to themselves if they think cold and calculated racism is anything but personal. Just like the quote from the Godfather is a lie. As if anything couldn't be more personal. That whole idea is just stupid. I don't know how people have bought onto it.

I think the point of the article is that there is certainly "cold calculated racism" out there as you say but that's not the only way race affects minorities.

Maybe the label "racist" (as stigmatic as it is) is not an appropriate one. But that is maybe not to say that there isn't "racism" out there in a more impersonal systematic way. Which I think is the point of the article maybe.

I would be interested in hearing from others (victims of racism) in the forum some examples of how they maybe have experienced racism. Maybe if there were more awareness of what sorts of behavior we the "majority" act in which has a negative effect on "minorities", that might be help us avoid such behavior.
 
Real Universal Health Care would be a step in the right direction toward bridging the divide. So called "Obama Care" seems like a step in the right direction toward UHC.

To add to what I said - if people are living happy lives, have access to healthcare, affordable & healthy food, affordable or free quality education, if their neighbourhoods are clean, well maintained, there's parks where you can spend an afternoon, markets, places for people to gather, if there is a social net you can rely on if you lose your job, and you don't have to worry about going bankrupt when you get sick.. you are far less likely to see people who are different than you as enemies or potential enemies.. You will focus a lot more of your energy spending quality time with your friends, family, community, your hardships will be of an emotional/human nature rather than financial.. and in a society that strives towards values like that will just see far less segmentation as a result - whether it's socio-economic, racial, religious, or whatever.

Stereotypes will not go away if the country is segregated in so many ways... and neither will racism. People need to stop thinking of themselves as black or white, and think of themselves as members of the same community - whether it's a neighbourhood in their city or America as a whole. And the best way to support the growth of community is by making sure that the things I've mentioned at the beginning of my first paragraph are well funded.

And I'm not saying that people need to abandon their cultural heritage. It's okay to be Irish American or African American, or whatever. It's okay to be white or black. But when you're a part of your community, those things should just drop away. and right now they don't - communities in America are built along racial lines. Socio-economic too, but racial as well. If you don't get rid of those lines, the racism and racial problems will never go away. And since those racial dividing lines are so closely tied to socioeconomic status - that is a very good place (IMO) to start fixing the problem. It's not going to fix everything, it's NOT going to get rid of racism - but it's an important first step.
 
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