Cuba and US to normalize relations

[Tee Kay]

Can I let this one go by? No. I don't think I can.

When you go to vote, you're literally putting a cross next to someone's name, whose trustworthiness, and ability, to implement policies (you've only a vague sense of the real value of) is an unknown quantity. At the best.

But I do wish you were right.

Still doesn't negate my claim. You're still potentially putting that someone into a position where they play a not insignificant part in deciding what happens to your country.

And usually you do know a bit about them. Like, between the Nazi guy and the not-a-Nazi guy, probably the not-a-Nazi is the guy you prefer.

 

[luiz]

You are wrong about Cuba and Castro. Period. What is your source for pre-revolutionary per capita income? Besides, Cuba's literacy rate before the Triumph of the Revolution was less than the US. Now, Cuba is 100% literate.
(See Children of the Revolution by Jonathan Kozol.

Per Capita income is a BS stat because it deals with a mean average, assuming "everyone in America makes $36,000 a year" (or whatever) which is total BS... and everyone except FOX News thinks so.

I cited the data, I have first-hand accounts from friends who have visited there. Even the New York Times is publishing articles favorable to Cuba...

Castro-haters are so very alone... So very, very alone....

Nope, I am right. By virtually any measure Cuba prior to the Revolution was the richest and most socially developed country in Latin America, and in fact richer and more developed than several Western European countries. It was, in other words, what we might call a First World country today. Of course there was also poverty and social problems, but all countries in the world, no matter how rich, had some poverty and social poverty in the 1950's.

I've posted this on countless threads on Cuba, but as usual you and the other one or two Castro apologists will ignore it and repeat your lies on the next thread. Anyway:

According to the International Labor Organization, the average industrial salary in Cuba was the world's eighth-highest in 1958, and the average agricultural wage was higher than in developed nations such as Denmark, West Germany, Belgium, and France.[83][84] Although a third of the population still lived in poverty, Cuba was one of the five most developed countries in Latin America by the end of the Batista era.[85] Only 44% of the population was rural.[86]

In the 1950s, Cuba's gross domestic product (GDP) per capita was roughly equal to that of contemporary Italy, and significantly higher than that of countries such as Japan.
...
According to the United Nations at the time, "one feature of the Cuban social structure [was] a large middle class".[87] Labour rights were also favourable – an eight-hour day had been established in 1933, long before most other countries, and Cuban workers were entitled to a months's paid holiday, nine days' sick leave with pay, and six weeks' holiday before and after childbirth.[88]

Cuba also had Latin America's highest per capita consumption rates of meat, vegetables, cereals, automobiles, telephones and radios during this period.[84][88][89]:186 Cuba had the fifth-highest number of televisions per capita in the world, and the world's eighth-highest number of radio stations (160). According to the United Nations, 58 different daily newspapers operated in Cuba during the late 1950s, more than any Latin American country save Brazil, Argentina and Mexico.[90] Havana was the world's fourth-most-expensive city at the time,[78] and had more cinemas than New York.[85] Cuba furthermore had the highest level of telephone] penetration in Latin America, although many telephone users were still unconnected to switchboards.[86]

Moreover, Cuba's health service was remarkably developed. It had one of the highest numbers of doctors per capita – more than in the United Kingdom at that time – and the third-lowest adult mortality rate in the world. According to the World Health Organization, the island had the lowest infant mortality rate in Latin America, and the 13th-lowest in the world – better than in contemporary France, Belgium, West Germany, Israel, Japan, Austria, Italy, Spain, and Portugal.[84][91][92]

Additionally, education spending in Cuba was the highest in Latin America relative to GDP.[84] Cuba had the fourth-highest literacy rate in the region, at almost 80% according to the United Nations – higher than that of Spain at the time.[90][91][92]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Cuba#Economic_expansion

And before some idiot dismisses a Wikipedia source, do note that it is thoroughly referenced.

So in sum, prior to the Revolution:

-Cuba had the best education in Latin America (today while Cuba still has a good average education, it basically has no advanced research, unlike say Brazil or Chile);
-Cuba had the best healthcare in Latin America, in fact it was one of the best in the world (today Chile has a higher life expectancy);
-Cuba was the richest country in Latin America (now it's one of the poorest, with a per capita income just 1/3rd that of Chile and 1/2 of Brazil or Mexico);
-Cuban workers enjoyed remarkable labour rights that were absent even in Western Europe (today Cubans are slaves).

So what are the achievements of the Revolution? Freedom was suppressed, everybody got poorer. Some of the things that were already good in Cuba, such as education and healthcare, remained relatively good for Latin American standards, but they're no longer world-class as they once were.

The Cuban Revolution was a tragedy. It's no wonder Fidel Castro was the most hated leader in all of Latin America see here.

 

[luiz]

Still, 87% is incredibly high! I bet the US would love to get voter participation like that.

I'd have expected much lower turnout in Denmark than Cuba, simply because in the latter participation is likely to be mandatory. And in liberal democracies populations are typically disengaged from politics.

Yes, 87% is bizarrely high, which is why at first I thought RT was making it up (he makes up 90% of what he posts).

In Brazil voting is mandatory. If you don't vote in a single election you won't be able to get or renew your passport, driver's license and etc, or apply for a public job, until you pay a small fine and fill a form to rectify the situation. So not voting is a far bigger hassle than voting. And yet our turnouts are typically on the 60% range.

I can understand why Scandinavia would have higher turnouts, but 87% is still remarkable. That said, it's also believable. 97% is not, and necessarily means that the people were coerced into voting. Statistically speaking we can expect at least about 10% of the voters to be sick, traveling, injured, apathetic or simply forget to vote. Maybe even more than 10%.

 

[sophie]

Can I let this one go by? No. I don't think I can.

When you go to vote, you're literally putting a cross next to someone's name, whose trustworthiness, and ability, to implement policies (you've only a vague sense of the real value of) is an unknown quantity. At the best.

But I do wish you were right.

The US also has ballot measures

 

[Borachio]

... so I looked it up.

I'm all in favour of direct democracy. The nearest I come to it is an occasional referendum.

 

[Farm Boy]

The US also has ballot measures

Not infrequently ignored if not binding or overruled by courts if they are. Not always by any stretch, but heavy legal bankrolls do have some advantages over voter energy.

 

[onejayhawk]

... so I looked it up.

I'm all in favour of direct democracy. The nearest I come to it is an occasional referendum.

Town hall meetings.

Democracy is not an efficient way to do things. People in the USA like to talk about having a democracy, but it's an elective republic.

J

 

[Tahuti]

By virtually any measure Cuba prior to the Revolution was the richest and most socially developed country in Latin America, and in fact richer and more developed than several Western European countries. It was, in other words, what we might call a First World country today. Of course there was also poverty and social problems, but all countries in the world, no matter how rich, had some poverty and social poverty in the 1950's.

While I do not dispute you here, to be fair to RT, there did exist a massive disparity and volatility in political power, culminating in the Batista régime (who ironically was supported by communists when Cuba was still a democracy). This allowed the resentment that led to aid the communist take-over.

 

[MobBoss]

Castro-haters are so very alone... So very, very alone....

Not really. There are a lot of them. Particularly in the South Florida area.

 

[luiz]

While I do not dispute you here, to be fair to RT, there did exist a massive disparity and volatility in political power, culminating in the Batista régime (who ironically was supported by communists when Cuba was still a democracy). This allowed the resentment that led to aid the communist take-over.

Well, duh. Batista effed-up everything. And as you said, he actually came to power as a left-wing populist, with communist backing and all.

I'm not defending Batista, or pre-revolutionary Cuban politics. I'm just saying that praising the Revolution for Cuba having a good (by Latin American standards) healthcare and education is either ignorant or dishonest, because (on relative terms) Cuba had better healthcare and education prior to the Castrist dictatorship.

 

[Tahuti]

I'm just saying that praising the Revolution for Cuba having a good (by Latin American standards) healthcare and education is either ignorant or dishonest, because (on relative terms) Cuba had better healthcare and education prior to the Castrist dictatorship.

Well, no dispute here!

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Well, I'm convinced.
Castro-haters are, by extension, Freedom-haters. There are only two sides. Clearly they are on the wrong side of history.

Miami =/= a lot of Castro haters.

188 nations to 2 in favor of ending the blockade.

Cuba seems to have more friends than the US.

GDP is still a BS stat.

And that is all.

And minus 1,000,000 points for wikipedia citation.

 

[luiz]

And before some idiot dismisses a Wikipedia source, do note that it is thoroughly referenced

It cites the UN, the International Labour Organization, and a dozen other such sources. Stop making a fool out of yourself.

 

[Tahuti]

There are only two sides

That's rather black-white thinking.

 

[Arwon]

So how long till the MLB expansion?

 

[onejayhawk]

Well, I'm convinced.
Castro-haters are, by extension, Freedom-haters. There are only two sides. Clearly they are on the wrong side of history.

Logic is not a strength is it?

Miami =/= a lot of Castro haters.

188 nations to 2 in favor of ending the blockade.

Cuba seems to have more friends than the US.

Yet the US is where everyone wants to come. It seems your argument has holes.

GDP is still a BS stat.

And that is all.

And minus 1,000,000 points for wikipedia citation.

Do that a few more times and you catch up.

J

 

[downtown]

So how long till the MLB expansion?

This was one of my first thoughts too. We could have a college bowl game in Cuba in the next two years as well. We had one before Castro (the Barcadi Bowl), and I imagine sponsors and journalists would love to have one again.

It obviously pales in comparison to all of the more important things, but this policy is going to be great for sports. Cuban baseball players, especially poor ones, will benefit immensely.

 

[sophie]

This was one of my first thoughts too. We could have a college bowl game in Cuba in the next two years as well. We had one before Castro (the Barcadi Bowl), and I imagine sponsors and journalists would love to have one again.

It obviously pales in comparison to all of the more important things, but this policy is going to be great for sports. Cuban baseball players, especially poor ones, will benefit immensely.

My first thought was the dramatic changes in the foreign players market this will bring about. This will probably be the next DR.

 

[ReindeerThistle]

Logic is not a strength is it? ...
Yet the US is where everyone wants to come. It seems your argument has holes....

Do that a few more times and you catch up.
J

"Logic?" "Citations?"

You should hear how hard my comrades laugh when I show them some of the posts on this thread. Imagine a room with 60 people unable to contain themselves when I read a post about how much better life was for Cubans before the Triumph of the Revolution, or how Castro is a billionaire. Or about "human rights abuses." Imagine that in 41 offices in the country, plus one office in Switzerland. Multiply that by over 10,000 members in each locale. You become the instant laughing stock of almost a half a million people.

And they all disagree with you.

You're welcome!

I presented documented, factual evidence, coupled with real-life experiences and none of the lies you spit out changes one fact I presented.

This is a hate-crime thread, pure and simple.

For the record, I am the only one in this forum who:
1. Gives 100% of his time in service to America's poorest and underserved working communities.
2. Knows actual Cubans, who live here and abroad.
3. Has an attorney roommate who has done two person-to-person trips to Cuba to study the legal system.
4. Has a friend who organizes medical professionals to donate care for the medically indigent in the US, who has done three person-to-person trips to Cuba, which included seminars are Cuban breakthroughs in nutrition and diet; a psychiatry convention and a conference on treating diabetic ulcers.

BTW, ELAM graduates more doctors than any other medical school in the hemisphere. I have met many ELAM grads in the US -- and they are all employed... And they have no student loan debt. Boo-ya!

You will find none of this "on line" because "on line" is not worth the wart on your ass if it doesn't get a sick person to the doctor or keep a family from freezing this winter, or keep an innocent person out of prison.

Maybe the "per capita" income was greater under Cuban fascism 1933 to 1959. Big frickin deal. It meant a few in the city made it big while the majority of the rural population ate mud, and rural crimes went unpunished.

Today, in Cuba, $20 goes farther than anywhere in the hemisphere because health care and education are free. Over 90% of the housing stock in Havana is privately owned. Most Habañeros don't pay rent. You pay rent? Mortgage?

And the sense of community and kinship? Cuba is unparalleled. Whole communities look out for each other. No one starves to death. The whole nation mobilizes when there is a natural disaster. They even save the pets.

As for who wants to go where... Companies and people are lining up to go to Cuba. I read it in the New York Times.

So there.

I meet US attorneys and doctors who are a $100,000+ in debt for student loans. They may never pay it back. The US city of San Diego, CA shuts off 24,000 water customers a month. I meet Americans with college education and full time jobs who live in homeless shelters. I meet families holding yard sales to try to get their utilities turned on.

Beats me why anyone clamors to get to the US. The US is a racist, fascist cesspool of institutional violence. Defending anything the US does makes you an enabler of racist, fascist, institutional violence.

It makes me that much gladder that you disagree. Because, if you met me at your church, or in your classroom, 75% (at my current average) of the crowd you are part of would sign up to be called for volunteer opportunities.

Not you, because it is not in your interest to do so.

I hope y'all had as much fun reading as I had writing.

 

[MobBoss]

"
This is a hate-crime thread, pure and simple.

Well, this thread just jumped the shark.