Cuba, Venezuela may host Russian Bombers

[plarq]

I think the US stations nuclear missiles in Italy, but I could be wrong

In western Germany I'm sure.

 

[Ecofarm]

I have short-term memory loss problems, so can someone (preferably Ecofarm) inform me as to what good would come out of doing something about Russia stationing bombers in Cuba?

We can show our committment to continue to fight Cuba diplomatically. To allow another Soviet proping of Cuba would only perpetuate their foray into the dark ages and is hardly ethical. Ultimately, the good is to continue an isolation of Cuba in attempt to bring freedom and democracy to the island without bloodshed.

And perhaps Cuba requested this for their own protection? They have a right to request this if they feel threatened by the US.

The Obama administration has shown a willingness to use a softer hand in diplomatic coercion with Cuba; I hardly think his administration will change relations with Cuba to the affect that we invade. If the US was intent upon regime change by force in Cuba (where there is no genocide), do you think these Russian nukes will get there just in time to save them or would it have happened years ago? The Bay of Pigs resulted in the Cuban missile crisis. Now we are to have another missile crisis? Did I miss new invasion attempt that might justify such a move?

The US has not spent the last half a century opposing the Castro regime diplomatically just to end it with a blood bath now.

Let's be realistic... The Obama administration will open relations and western culture will have bougie resorts for Cuba's booming tourist industry in no time; soon after, the communist ideals will give way to desire for an increased standard of living. As the cold war rhetoric falls away, Cuba will scramble for US TV, movies, cars, cloths and culture just like Europe and Asian have done before them. There really is no need for bloodshed there; peaceful change is immanent. Russia is attempting to prevent this change from occuring, preferring that the Cubans continue to live in squander and serve their Soviet masters in the form of an expendable rhetorical device.

 

[RedRalph]

Yeah, definitely Latin america wants to become more like the US, just look at the El Salvadorian election results today:

From Irish Times

El Salvador's FMLN party of former Marxist guerrillas swept to power yesterday in a presidential election that split the country along old civil war fault lines.

Mauricio Funes, a former TV journalist and candidate of the Farabundo Marti National Liberation Front (FMLN) claimed victory after results showed he had 51.3 per cent of the vote with over 90 per cent of returns counted.

Jubilant leftists let off fireworks, waved flags and gathered at a monument in the capital to celebrate.

Rodrigo Avila of the conservative Arena party, which has ruled El Salvador since 1989, trailed with 48.7 per cent support and he conceded defeat late on Sunday night.

It was a historic victory after a bitter campaign that split the small Central American nation, where memories of the 1980-92 civil war that killed 75,000 people are still strong.

"My party, the FMLN, has shown to the whole world it is ready for a new government," Funes said in a victory speech. He called for reconciliation with the Arena, whose founder was linked to right-wing death squads during the war.

The victory boosts a growing group of left-wingers in Latin America, led by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

The United States spent billions of dollars in supporting a string of right-wing governments in the fight against the FMLN during the civil war, although Mr Funes insists he will look for good relations with Washington.

Arena has held office since 1989 and kept the coffee-exporting Central American country firmly in the pro-Washington camp, even sending troops to help U.S. forces in Iraq.

But stubborn poverty and street crime have helped the FMLN, which laid down its weapons under a 1992 peace deal and set up a political party to seek power at the ballot box.

Definitely want to become more like the US

 

[Camikaze]

We can show our committment to continue to fight Cuba diplomatically. To allow another Soviet proping of Cuba would only perpetuate their foray into the dark ages and is hardly ethical. Ultimately, the good is to continue an isolation of Cuba in attempt to bring freedom and democracy to the island without bloodshed.

So the best thing to do for the people of Cuba is to subject them to blockades and further isolation, worsening their position and standard of living, and making them despise the US more?

The Obama administration has shown a willingness to use a softer hand in diplomatic coercion with Cuba; I hardly think his administration will change relations with Cuba to the affect that we invade. If the US was intent upon regime change by force in Cuba (where there is no genocide), do you think these Russian nukes will get there just in time to save them or would it have happened years ago? The Bay of Pigs resulted in the Cuban missile crisis. Now we are to have another missile crisis? Did I miss new invasion attempt that might justify such a move?

I think an American invasion of Cuba is just as likely as a Russian invasion of Poland. So why does America want to station there?

The US has not spent the last half a century opposing the Castro regime diplomatically just to end it with a blood bath now.

Let's be realistic... The Obama administration will open relations and western culture will have bougie resorts for Cuba's booming tourist industry in no time; soon after, the communist ideals will give way to desire for an increased standard of living. As the cold war rhetoric falls away, Cuba will scramble for US TV, movies, cars, cloths and culture just like Europe and Asian have done before them. There really is no need for bloodshed there; peaceful change is immanent. Russia is attempting to prevent this change from occuring, preferring that the Cubans continue to live in squander and serve their Soviet masters in the form of an expendable rhetorical device.

Or perhaps Russia, and its democratic government (it may have some undemocratic tendencies, but it is still essentially democratic), who have been greatly empowered by globalisation, want to stop that spread of democracy and globalisation to their friends? If they are their friends, they would be aiding them in becoming more capitalist, and transforming their economy, just like Russia has with its own.

 

[plarq]

Yeah, definitely Latin america wants to become more like the US, just look at the El Salvadorian election results today:

From Irish Times



Definitely want to become more like the US

51.3 to 48.7, quite a bipolar society.

 

[Great Librarian]

Reading half the posts by Ecofarm you either get the impression it's 1958 still and intercontinental weapons have yet to be developed or that Russia is hundreds of billions and millions of miles away from the United States and could only attack it out of Cuba with bombers. With that said, I find your surprise that no one had posted this article rather surprising.

 

[TheLastOne36]

It pretty much shows that Cuba and Venezuela are run by idiots. They obviously want a more solid alliance with Russia that could be strong enough to pose a threat to the US and gain them influence.

Mostly Chavez, he is a true idiot. Can't wait to see him leave.

 

[philippe]

Mostly Chavez, he is a true idiot. Can't wait to see him leave.

he is probably better at governing a country then you ever will be.

And okay, he can have flaws, but tell me how he is a "true idiot"

is there a thing like a false idiot?

 

[TheLastOne36]

he is probably better at governing a country then you ever will be.

And okay, he can have flaws, but tell me how he is a "true idiot"

is there a thing like a false idiot?

Well he's an idiot when dealing with foreign relations. If i was president of Venezuela, i'd be making relations with the EU and ditch russia.

Aside from that, what he's done in Venezuela has been alright, he has built some infrastructure, the remaining poor only remain in areas like northern Caracas and Maracaibo, and for the average middle-higher class citizen's lifestyle is now on the level of 1st world countries.

 

[Dachs]

Well he's an idiot when dealing with foreign relations. If i was president of Venezuela, i'd be making relations with the EU and ditch russia.

EU doesn't have ideological similarities with Venezuela and isn't making themselves out to be a counterpoint to the United States...

 

[TheLastOne36]

Since when is Venezuela an enemy of the US?

 

[red_elk]

TBH, I don't see much sense for Russia to station bombers there. As far as I remember, we removed military base from Cuba not long ago. If we are going to annoy the US somehow, this should be done for reason, not just because.

 

[Bill3000]

We can show our committment to continue to fight Cuba diplomatically. To allow another Soviet proping of Cuba would only perpetuate their foray into the dark ages and is hardly ethical. Ultimately, the good is to continue an isolation of Cuba in attempt to bring freedom and democracy to the island without bloodshed.

Let's be realistic... The Obama administration will open relations and western culture will have bougie resorts for Cuba's booming tourist industry in no time; soon after, the communist ideals will give way to desire for an increased standard of living. As the cold war rhetoric falls away, Cuba will scramble for US TV, movies, cars, cloths and culture just like Europe and Asian have done before them. There really is no need for bloodshed there; peaceful change is immanent.

You're supporting isolation and free trade at the same time?

 

[red_elk]

You're supporting isolation and free trade at the same time?

Just to counter growing Soviet influence

 

[Ecofarm]

You're supporting isolation and free trade at the same time?

I was discussing them at the same time, not necessarily supporting. I'm wacky like that, sometimes I discuss various aspects of an issue at the same time.

Anyway, I support the embargo against Cuba and can see the affects of it ending. I'm not sure I'm a huge fan of Cuba going back to Batista's darkest corruption years and a mob-run resort-hotel industry for Cuba's future, but it's gonna happen anyway. Just look at the post-soviet Russia... before the KGB re-established control, the mob was running the show. Ah, the growing pains of democracy.

Reading half the posts by Ecofarm you either get the impression it's 1958 still and intercontinental weapons have yet to be developed or that Russia is hundreds of billions and millions of miles away from the United States and could only attack it out of Cuba with bombers. With that said, I find your surprise that no one had posted this article rather surprising.

Did you actually read the thread, because this is not about military balance. It's about ideological geopolitics, the Monroe Doctrine and the Sphere of Influence.

 

[Formaldehyde]

It's not exactly news that Cuba and Venezuela are run by idiots,

No, it's not news. It's your opinion. My opinion is that Castro and Chavez are both much brighter than GWB.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1354236/is_george_bush_an_idiot/

No more massive foreign aid in a stimulus bill paid with money we don't even have.

There is no massive foreign aid and there never has been. Israel is always at the top of that list, and it is almost all in the form of military aid.

No more handouts. The world can't have one but not the other.

Cuba provides aid to other countries in times of hurricanes and other natural disasters. Do you think that gives them the right to invade other sovereign countres?

And it's not like we intervene where it isn't necessary, despite what you may think about Iraq.

Are you trying to suggest it's OK for the US to illegally invade and occupy foreign countries on the basis of deliberate lies and deceit?

We can think what we want. But unless we also have access to the same intelligence the president has access to, our opinions are ill-informed (and biased by media who are also ill-informed)

If that were only true. Unfortunately, history has shown our government usually doesn't tell us what is really going on because they don't want us to know how corrupt and incompetent they really are. They certianly had no problem telling us specifically why they were invading Iraq, and it all turned out to be lies and deceit.

According to EcoFarm, dictatorship has no rights, they should be destroyed.

Is that right? He thinks we should invade an occupy Saudi Arabia? The country where almost all of the 9/11 hijackers are from? Or how about Egypt?

Some of our best friends are, or have been, vicious dictators:

http://tfclub.tripod.com/list.html

But they have always been ultra-right-wing ones...

To allow another Soviet proping of Cuba would only perpetuate their foray into the dark ages and is hardly ethical.

Um. There is no more Soviet Union.

Ultimately, the good is to continue an isolation of Cuba in attempt to bring freedom and democracy to the island without bloodshed.

That would be a welcome change from our past policies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/638_Ways_to_Kill_Castro

Russia is attempting to prevent this change from occuring, preferring that the Cubans continue to live in squander and serve their Soviet masters in the form of an expendable rhetorical device.

Um, once again, no Soviet menace anymore. And I don't think you have been informed about how Cuba actually feels about being 'betrayed' by the old Soviet Union:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-Soviet_relations

When Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev visited Cuba in 1989, the close relationship between Moscow and Havana was strained by Gorbachev's implementation of economic and political reforms in the USSR. "We are witnessing sad things in other socialist countries, very sad things," lamented Castro in November 1989, in reference to the reforms that were sweeping such communist allies as the Soviet Union, East Germany, Hungary, and Poland.[9] The subsequent collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 had an immediate and devastating effect on Cuba.

Due to the American embargo on Cuba, she relied heavily on trade with the Soviet Union. From the late 1980s, Soviet subsidies for Cuba started to dry up. Before the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuba depended on Moscow for sheltered markets for its exports and substantial aid. The removal of these subsidies sent the Cuban economy into a rapid depression known in Cuba as the Special Period. In 1992 the United States tightened the trade embargo. This contributed to a drop in Cuban living standards which approached crisis point within a year.[148]


Cuba, the largest of the Caribbean holiday islands, is becoming an increasingly popular tourist destination.Like some other Communist and post-Communist states following the collapse of the Soviet Union, Cuba took limited free market-oriented measures to alleviate severe shortages of food, consumer goods, and services. These steps included allowing some self-employment in certain retail and light manufacturing sectors, the legalization of the use of the U.S. dollar in business, and the encouragement of tourism. In 1996 tourism surpassed the sugar industry as the largest source of hard currency for Cuba. Cuba has tripled its market share of Caribbean tourism in the last decade; as a result of significant investment in tourism infrastructure, this growth rate is predicted to continue.[149] 1.9 million tourists visited Cuba in 2003, predominantly from Canada and the European Union, generating revenue of $2.1 billion.[150] The rapid growth of tourism during the Special Period had widespread social and economic repercussions in Cuba. This has led to speculation of the emergence of a two-tier economy[151]. Cuba has developed a unique urban farm system (the organopónicos) to compensate for the end of food imports from the Soviet Union.

And the major reason why Cuba lives "in squander" has always been due to the draconian embargo the US has forced upon them for decades now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

At present, the embargo, which limits American businesses from conducting business with Cuban interests, is still in effect and is the most enduring trade embargo in modern history. Despite the existence of the embargo, the United States is the seventh largest exporter to Cuba (4.3% of Cuba's imports are from the US).[3]

Hopefully, this will soon change now that Obama is in office. I hope to visit there soon and spend my American money.

 

[Patroklos]

This really isn't a big deal, but you have to ask yourself why is Russia doing this? In the case of the US in Europe the reasons are pretty clear, basically that we were already there before which is why some bases are where they are (though at greatly reduced force levels) and that we are still members of a strong established alliance there.

In Russia's case, there really isn't any practical or legacy reasons to do this.

 

[Ecofarm]

There is no massive foreign aid and there never has been. Israel is always at the top of that list, and it is almost all in the form of military aid.

Map showing top 10 foreign aid donor countries.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/world-top-ten/world-top-ten-doners-of-foreigner-aid-map.html


Further...

As an aside, it should be emphasized that the above figures are comparing government spending. Such spending has been agreed at international level and is spread over a number of priorities.

Individual/private donations may be targeted in many ways. However, even though the charts above do show US aid to be poor (in percentage terms) compared to the rest, the generosity of the American people is far more impressive than their government. Private aid/donation typically through the charity of individual people and organizations can be weighted to certain interests and areas. Nonetheless, it is interesting to note for example, per latest estimates, Americans privately give at least $34 billion overseas—more than twice the US official foreign aid of $15 billion at that time:

International giving by US foundations: $1.5 billion per year
Charitable giving by US businesses: $2.8 billion annually
American NGOs: $6.6 billion in grants, goods and volunteers.
Religious overseas ministries: $3.4 billion, including health care, literacy training, relief and development.
US colleges scholarships to foreign students: $1.3 billion
Personal remittances from the US to developing countries: $18 billion in 2000
Source: Dr. Carol Adelman, Aid and Comfort, Tech Central Station, 21 August 2002.

http://www.globalissues.org/article/35/us-and-foreign-aid-assistance#Sidenoteonprivatecontributions

ps. The US government gives about 2.5b/yr to Israel. I think we've spent more on Iraq lately. At least that guy is no longer their mainstream news source.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Map showing top 10 foreign aid donor countries.]

$12 Billion dollars is nothing. It's small you can't even see it on the pie chart since it represents 0.4% of the total budget:

And once again, Israel is by far the largest recipient:

http://www.vaughns-1-pagers.com/politics/us-foreign-aid.htm

And then comes Egypt - both of whom have excellent economies. They should be giving us foreign aid.

 

[Ecofarm]

By James Hohmann
April 03, 2008

A bipartisan coalition in the House voted Wednesday to significantly expand a popular program aimed at combating HIV and AIDS around the world, renewing the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief by authorizing $50 billion -- $20 billion more than the White House requested -- over five years.

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/apr/03/nation/na-aids3

That's to fight the affects of AIDS worldwide alone. 10b/year. 4x what we give Israel.