[RD] Cultural Appropriation: The Solution?

[luiz]

The solution is to understand the cultural appropriation is a subtle phenomenon that is highly dependent on context. The peak of idiotic cultural appropriation discourse that I've seen is probably "white people shouldn't become bilingual". I have seen posts arguing that it is appropriative for white people to learn Spanish and posts arguing it is appropriative for white people to learn Japanese.

Do american SJWs think Spanish was invented by Mexicans or something? Wow.
(I understand you're also mocking the people who made this argument, I'm just shocked because Spanish was obviously invented by, you know, white European people. So these people are arguing that Spaniards shouldn't learn their own native language).

Cultural appropriation as described in the OP is not problem at all. I don't see why anyone would care about what is described in the OP. Mocking and degrading other people's customs, as was and is often done, is the problem. Not adopting the ones you find cool.

 

[Berzerker]

I feel a sense of loss when I see 'primitive' people wearing T-shirts and western clothing. Its different when I see 'modern' people wearing their clothing etc, they're helping those cultures stay alive. For example, the musician Paul Simon got flack for going to Africa to make music based in part on African culture and sharing it with the world. History's full of dominant cultures destroying the traditional ways of life of the conquered, like missionaries beating children for speaking their native languages etc.

 

[Lexicus]

(I understand you're also mocking the people who made this argument, I'm just shocked because Spanish was obviously invented by, you know, white European people. So these people are arguing that Spaniards shouldn't learn their own native language).

Yes, that was one of the major themes in the comment threads ridiculing this crap.
Something like
Spain *exists*
SJWs: CULTURAL APPROPRIATION

One wrinkle of this, of course, which I know you of all people will appreciate, is that cultural appropriation discourse frequently reifies capitalist relations by applying a sort of "cultural intellectual property" logic. Like because some black people invented [thing] it's in some sense the "cultural property" of all black people. Leaving aside the ugly racial essentialism at the heart of this kind of logic, you'll notice how it sort of conflicts with the logic of anti-capitalism and opposition to private property.

I feel a sense of loss when I see 'primitive' people wearing T-shirts and western clothing. Its different when I see 'modern' people wearing their clothing etc, they're helping those cultures stay alive.

Clearly, the man on the right is "keeping alive" the culture of the man on the left

 

[Bootstoots]

I mean in the sense that it's more than a few. It's a rather nuanced topic that requires quite a bit of reading to understand properly. Seems to be a common theme when the internet runs into aspects of Critical Theory.

Is there any specific thing in popular culture that is commonly considered to be problematic cultural appropriation? Or is the whole idea that goes "white people are using something from a nonwhite culture simply because they find it entertaining; this is cultural appropriation and therefore bad" based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what cultural appropriation actually is?

 

[Berzerker]

we need more cultural appropriation

 

[TheMeInTeam]

One wrinkle of this, of course, which I know you of all people will appreciate, is that cultural appropriation discourse frequently reifies capitalist relations by applying a sort of "cultural intellectual property" logic. Like because some black people invented [thing] it's in some sense the "cultural property" of all black people. Leaving aside the ugly racial essentialism at the heart of this kind of logic, you'll notice how it sort of conflicts with the logic of anti-capitalism and opposition to private property.

Not really. Establishing ownership claims/private property on this is extremely difficult, in contrast to things capitalism routinely enforces. Sub-categorization of people gets increasingly ridiculous and extreme until you realize you're finally at the individual level, and at that point we'd have some dude 2000+ years ago with "original claims" to a certain piece of clothing and his thousands and thousands of descendants all fighting over weak claims to the toga. You'd have an easier time fighting over air.

 

[Lexicus]

That carries a burden of evidence of something being wrong.

If someone tells you that something you did hurt them, that is "evidence" enough that you should stop doing it, if you care about hurting them.

Not really. Establishing ownership claims/private property on this is extremely difficult, in contrast to things capitalism routinely enforces. Sub-categorization of people gets increasingly ridiculous and extreme until you realize you're finally at the individual level, and at that point we'd have some dude 2000+ years ago with "original claims" to a certain piece of clothing and his thousands and thousands of descendants all fighting over weak claims to the toga. You'd have an easier time fighting over air.

I think you're missing the point. No one is talking about establishing literal property rights over this stuff.

 

[Berzerker]

Clearly, the man on the right is "keeping alive" the culture of the man on the left

I dont know what he's doing

Cultural appropriation is a concept in sociology dealing with the adoption of the elements of a minority culture by members of the dominant culture. ... Cultural elements which may have deep meaning to the original culture may be reduced to "exotic" fashion or toys by those from the dominant culture.

 

[metatron]

This thread assumes that "cultural appropriation" is a legitimate concept in western society.

I'm not sure if i qualify here.
I have previously asserted that "cultural appropriation" can exist as a negative and one should be mindful of it and i have taken the affirmative ("pro sjw" if you will) position in some thread once - i believe the matter at hand may have been belly dancing.

On the other hand i am critical of most claims of "cultural appropriation" as a negative and am habitually critical of most of the people who like to talk about "cultural appropriation" as a negative.
You obviously allready know this, but i feel intellectual honesty requires that i disclaim my obviously limited credibility on this vis a vis the premises you want to see accepted for argument's sake.

[stuff]

TMIT's objection is valid.
You are asking for a "solution". I strongly suspect for us to agree on one we'd have to have at least some loose and tacit consensus on what cultural appropriation actually is and when it is bad (i take it to be an implied premise of you original post that it sometimes is and i doubt there are many people who'd claim that it never is).

My off-hand first swing would be something like this:
1. There has to be a transfer of practice.
2. The power gradient is a large determining factor regarding the actual damage, so it helps if there is one and if it's big.
3. There has to be a mismatch between adoption of the practice and adoption of understanding. Such as:
a) The adopting party vastly changes the thing but believes it to be still authentic or alternatively forgets they adopted it and believe it to be entirely their own product.
b) reversely the adopting party conserves (to the point of obsession) the thing for authenticities sake but doesn't understand it; i.e. said party doesn't appreciate the purpose but is in essence maintaining a larping prop.
c) There can be a variety of gross mismatches on other dimensions, i suppose.

In my experience the disagreement between me and the people i label SJWs is twofold:
One disagreement seems to be that they are absolutist about the second criterion. I.e. they deem it virtually impossible for a more powerful party to be transgressed against (or for that to result in actual damage). I don't agree with that and merely see power gradients as a strong mitigating/escalating factor.
The other one is that they usually don't accept the third criterion. At all.
I could belabor that point now but i suspect that you at least tangentially agree with me on that point anyway.

 

[Narz]

This thread assumes that "cultural appropriation" is a legitimate concept in western society.

You'll never get anywhere with bad assumptions.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I think you're missing the point. No one is talking about establishing literal property rights over this stuff.

I'm pointing out that this is apples-to-oranges when it comes to talking about capitalism, because there is no such thing as viable "cultural intellectual property" and the comparison between this and say IP for something an individual creates for profit is not practical.

If someone tells you that something you did hurt them, that is "evidence" enough that you should stop doing it, if you care about hurting them.

A child might claim cutting his hair hurts him, especially if it's the first time he's aware of the experience.

Maybe he's being irrational, and maybe someone is mishandling the scissors. It's even possible, though unlikely, the child has an atypical condition where interacting with the hair is painful to the scalp. There is a way to tell the difference between these.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

Cultual Appropriation is a neutral term despite what Tumblrphiles say. There good uses and bad uses of Cultural Appropriation. Cultural Exchange is positive but sometimes mistaken for Cultural Appropriation.

 

[Lexicus]

I'm pointing out that this is apples-to-oranges when it comes to talking about capitalism, because there is no such thing as viable "cultural intellectual property" and the comparison between this and say IP for something an individual creates for profit is not practical.

Okay, cool, I'll let the Left know this the next time the subject comes up. Glad you could solve that whole conundrum for us.

A child might claim cutting his hair hurts him, especially if it's the first time he's aware of the experience.

Maybe he's being irrational, and maybe someone is mishandling the scissors. It's even possible, though unlikely, the child has an atypical condition where interacting with the hair is painful to the scalp. There is a way to tell the difference between these.

So if a Native person tells you that this

is offensive, do you consider them analogous to the child complaining irrationally that the scissors are hurting him?

If your answer is yes, we have nothing else to talk about.

 

[Azem.Ocram]

@Lexicus : I would consider that mishandling scisors by @TheMeInTeam ’s analogy. The picture has two big problems: objectifying women and fetishizing Native American culture.

The metric by which to tell whether Cultural Appropriation is positive or negative is to see how much appreciation the apropriator has for the culture. Sometimes one person can sincerely appreciate a culture but come off as mocking by some.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

So if a Native person tells you that this is offensive, do you consider them analogous to the child complaining irrationally that the scissors are hurting him?

Previously, you used the term "hurt", now you're using "offensive". These are not the same thing. Offenses are usually hurt feelings, but feelings can be hurt for rational or irrational reasons.

When I look at that image, the first emotion that comes to mind is confusion...but is this really being done to mock or degrade people? It's poor taste, but me going out in tight-as-possible orange and blue clothing and doing the interpretive dance from Majora's mask would also be in bad taste. Some people might even be offended, if they mistook that for something else (like me being an Illinois fan for example).

If you would dismiss complaints over mistaking an awful rendition of a video game dance in questionable clothing as offensive, why is it therefore inappropriate to also dismiss...whatever it is she was going for in that photo? In both cases, people can claim they're upset or even actually feel upset. Are you claiming both should be handled identically...and if not, what standards are you using to be selective?

 

[Lexicus]

Previously, you used the term "hurt", now you're using "offensive". These are not the same thing. Offenses are usually hurt feelings, but feelings can be hurt for rational or irrational reasons.

hurt feelings

hurt

Yes they are

but is this really being done to mock or degrade people?

Does it matter? When you hurt someone's feelings, do you use "I didn't mean to" as an excuse to evade responsibility, or do you apologize like an adult?

 

[Kyriakos]

I am sick & tired of holywood cultural appropriation of (ancient) greek culture

Not really. I mean, most people who are going to present something, likely will present it without much research, so the end result is more than just often not that good. It makes no sense to outright ban (or shame) use of a foreign cultural element.
Yes, i know that classical greek culture is universal in the west (and not just the west), but imo also other, less used cultures, should be free to present. Eg it isn't likely that if you shame someone for wearing a native american headgear they will then move on to study about it; they will just give up and not bother again, which leads to (further) isolation of said culture.
I used to play with plastic model native american warriors, as a child. Is that too shameful? They were among my favourite ^_^

 

[Lexicus]

I used to play with plastic model native american warriors, as a child. Is that too shameful? They were among my favourite ^_^

In my games of cowboys and Indians, the Indians were always the good guys

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Yes they are

One is a subclass of the other. All apples are fruits, but not all fruits are apples and whatnot.

Does it matter? When you hurt someone's feelings, do you use "I didn't mean to" as an excuse to evade responsibility, or do you apologize like an adult?

Is there any coherent reason for people to feel hurt? Should I apologize to descendants of Illiniwek for doing the Majora's mask dance poorly? The assertion I'd have some responsibility to do this is pretty absurd, it'd be more reasonable to ask me to apologize to the people that actually had to witness such a thing.

That brings us back to the "standards" bit. Yes, it matters for exactly this reason. If someone takes offense, they need a coherent reason to take offense in order to compel or even persuade the alleged offender to behave differently.

What if she were wearing an 18th century wig? Is this not a problem, or does it magically become a problem only if someone complaints that it hurt their feelings? What if it's a colonial wig rather than an English one, is someone from the UK not allowed to complain then?

Standards matter, otherwise everyone should apologize to everyone.

 

[Lexicus]

Is there any coherent reason for people to feel hurt? Should I apologize to descendants of Illiniwek for doing the Majora's mask dance poorly? The assertion I'd have some responsibility to do this is pretty absurd, it'd be more reasonable to ask me to apologize to the people that actually had to witness such a thing.

That brings us back to the "standards" bit. Yes, it matters for exactly this reason. If someone takes offense, they need a coherent reason to take offense in order to compel or even persuade the alleged offender to behave differently.

What if she were wearing an 18th century wig? Is this not a problem, or does it magically become a problem only if someone complaints that it hurt their feelings? What if it's a colonial wig rather than an English one, is someone from the UK not allowed to complain then?

Standards matter, otherwise everyone should apologize to everyone.

It must be nice going through life convinced you can use logic to argue away your responsibility for hurting other people's feelings.