[RD] Cultural Appropriation: The Solution?

[Lexicus]

Merely asserting that something hurt my feeling isn't enough to require an apology. If someone "didn't meant to" offend me, I would want to know, that is very important information for topics like this. This is a very complex issue, but we know the criteria for when something crosses the line can't only be "someone got their feelings hurt". If that was the case, we couldn't say or do much of anything at all.

My entire point with this is that there is never going to be an objective standard for what is "legitimately" offensive and what is not. The whole reason for the offense, in this case, is in fact a clash of standards where one person is saying "I'm offended" and another is saying " you have no legitimate basis for being offended, suck it up".

Trying to find one universal standard that everyone can agree on is futile...and in the absence of such a standard, all we have is each person's good-faith effort not to be a jerk. Something to think about the next time you consider writing something like this:

This post hurt my feelings. Will you apologize like an adult or make up an excuse to evade responsibility?

Sure. That was more like utter crazyness. Cant speak for germans though.

Race-based slavery happened in Europe...ironically, more recently than it happened in the United States. And of course, the reason the Nazis are considered so uniquely evil and all that jazz is because they applied the methods and logic of European colonial rule...in Europe.

You have always concepts like black, white, hispanos, indians in mind. In everything. With possitive or negative intentions. Month of black history, Here that is not even a thing.

This is what I mean. You haven't begun to come to terms with it. You are still in the mental stage of believing that you can transcend the past by pretending it doesn't exist. Rather like Morgan Freeman...

Now *this* is peak middle-class and up white guy stuff. "I admit I am completely ignorant regarding the issue at hand, but let me opine anyway..."

"I don't know anything about this but I do know that the white people involved acted in good faith and don't really need to change their behavior or thinking"

 

[Berzerker]

Crab people, crab people...

South Park did an episode on cultural appropriation, queer eye for the straight guy

The crab people couldn't defeat humanity so they tried to spread gay culture. Mr Garrison wasn't happy, he didn't want to share.

Seinfeld addressed the matter too, Elaine Benes dated a guy she thought had African ancestry because he liked African art. He wasn't African. He thought she was Hispanic because of her last name, she wasn't. They were both boring white people and broke up.

https://www.upi.com/Science_News/20...ions-beginning-67000-years-ago/3421525868506/

We wouldn't be here discussing cultural appropriation without cultural appropriation.

 

[Chose]

My entire point with this is that there is never going to be an objective standard for what is "legitimately" offensive and what is not. The whole reason for the offense, in this case, is in fact a clash of standards where one person is saying "I'm offended" and another is saying " you have no legitimate basis for being offended, suck it up".

Trying to find one universal standard that everyone can agree on is futile...and in the absence of such a standard, all we have is each person's good-faith effort not to be a jerk. Something to think about the next time you consider writing something like this:

Your previous post was suggesting that in a clash of standards, where one party is offended, and the other thinks there is no legitimate basis, that an adult will take responsibility and apologize for it. My "writing something like this" was demonstrating that this isn't always the case.

You're failing to acknowledge that there are situations where someone makes a good-faith effort to not be a jerk, and someone still gets offended and demands an apology. Your solution of "be an adult and take responsibility" is silly, and you have demonstrated your agreement with me by the fact that you haven't apologized to me yet. Sometimes the person asking for an apology is the one being a jerk and not acting in good-faith.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

This is what I mean. You haven't begun to come to terms with it. You are still in the mental stage of believing that you can transcend the past by pretending it doesn't exist. Rather like Morgan Freeman...

You dont get Mr. Freeman point (and mine). You feel the need to get in terms with your pretended past, and in the process you cannot forget that Mr. Freeman is black and you are white (if you indeed are). All that self-blaming and posterior self-congratulation by "getting in terms with past" is nothing but a way to feel better with oneself but never forgetting that the other guy is a poor black guy who deserves a black history month. That is racism and thay way you will never get rid of it.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

Can't wait for the prequel thread - "Cultural Appropriation: The Problem?"

 

[Kyriakos]

There is also the issue of reaction to poorly thought-through political 'movements' like (using the derogatory term) sjw ones; you will find equally reactionary people of the antithetical position, thus creating a whole polarization out of not very much.

In the end, i think that Freeman is right. I mean he didn't have anything more than others, and look where he is now. Would it have been easier if he was white? Likely. But it also would have been easier if he looked a lot prettier; this doesn't mean much.

 

[Lexicus]

You dont get Mr. Freeman point (and mine).

Of course I understand Mr. Freeman's point. I've only seen that video posted by like, ten thousand clueless white people.

You feel the need to get in terms with your pretended past, and in the process you cannot forget that Mr. Freeman is black and you are white (if you indeed are). All that self-blaming and posterior self-congratulation by "getting in terms with past" is nothing but a way to feel better with oneself but never forgetting that the other guy is a poor black guy who deserves a black history month. That is racism and thay way you will never get rid of it.

There is a vast body of sociological research demonstrating that this approach (commonly called "colorblind" policy or something similar) does nothing whatever to address racial disparities in housing, employment, schooling, etc. Show me a white person who claims to be able to "forget" that Freeman is black and I'll show you a liar.

Sometimes the person asking for an apology is the one being a jerk and not acting in good-faith.

So, do you think everyone complaining about cultural appropriation being offensive to them is in this category?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

My entire point with this is that there is never going to be an objective standard for what is "legitimately" offensive and what is not. The whole reason for the offense, in this case, is in fact a clash of standards where one person is saying "I'm offended" and another is saying " you have no legitimate basis for being offended, suck it up".

Trying to find one universal standard that everyone can agree on is futile...and in the absence of such a standard, all we have is each person's good-faith effort not to be a jerk. Something to think about the next time you consider writing something like this:

Based on this statement, the "solution" to cultural appropriation is to just hope people aren't jerks. Not very enlightening perhaps, but somewhat practical as long as we realize not everyone will abide it.

But it also would have been easier if he looked a lot prettier; this doesn't mean much.

Attractiveness isn't something that conveniently fits political narrative. Nevermind its impact on opportunity/how people are treated/success. It's not politically useful to separate people based on attractiveness! It's rare indeed to hear about attractiveness inequality, the attractiveness pay gap, or (general) discrimination based on attractiveness. Strange, you'd think someone could benefit from promising recompense on these grounds too, given that only a piece of attractiveness is based on actual life choices...

So, do you think everyone complaining about cultural appropriation being offensive to them is in this category?

Nobody claimed "everyone". However, those complaining do have some burden to demonstrate that they don't fall in it. They're the ones advocating that someone else should behave differently.

 

[Lexicus]

However, those complaining do have some burden to demonstrate that they don't fall in it.

What sort of demonstration do you have in mind?

Nobody claimed "everyone".

Every Custom in the US was appropriated from some other culture. To me this is PC nonsense.

 

[metalhead]

Merely asserting that something hurt my feeling isn't enough to require an apology. If someone "didn't meant to" offend me, I would want to know, that is very important information for topics like this. This is a very complex issue, but we know the criteria for when something crosses the line can't only be "someone got their feelings hurt". If that was the case, we couldn't say or do much of anything at all.

You have to be willing to listen and understand why someone was hurt or offended. Consider it. Surely the line isn't "admit fault every time someone claims offense," but if someone can articulate something reasonable to explain why they're offended, then why not apologize?

Not meaning to offend doesn't absolve one of fault for their behavior. If one is ignorant but willing to learn from unintentional offense, then that's undoubtedly a good thing. Ignorance is curable.

 

[Kyriakos]

I think that apologies don't really mean much, in this context. Eg most political apologies are 100% for show.

Furthermore, even assuming one apologises, does something change? Let alone that one's life isn't that directly dependable on people who don't like them; in that there is always room for personal attempts to bring something better about.
Sure, external situation, and/or demographics, can cause ruin. It doesn't only happen in the context of minorities either. Yet it just isn't practical or realistic to ask of everyone else to like you; regardless of what you are there will be many who just don't like you. It may even be due to actual racism; this won't be altering in this way at all, imo. I do think that, in the end, only economic abundance will allow for real dimishment of racism; and even then it won't erase it, cause nothing is ever erased utterly.

 

[Lexicus]

Furthermore, even assuming one apologises, does something change?

It would depend on whether the apology is genuine or not...

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Of course I understand Mr. Freeman's point. I've only seen that video posted by like, ten thousand clueless white people.

And still no getting it.

There is a vast body of sociological research demonstrating that this approach (commonly called "colorblind" policy or something similar) does nothing whatever to address racial disparities in housing, employment, schooling, etc.

Should it? You are starting from a very unequal situation, you need possitive action to change that. A neutral one will do nothing because it is neutral. But it is about a state of mind that i am speaking about not about administrative meassures.

Show me a white person who claims to be able to "forget" that Freeman is black and I'll show you a liar.

It is not about forgetting Morgan Freeman is black, but about dont caring about it at all and therefore treating him like an equal, he is as man as any white man. (I know you will now say that is machist or something) That is the reason he feels offended, i find amazing as you cant get it

 

[inthesomeday]

Haven’t read the responses to the OP but to respond to the OP, the only real solution is dismantling the oppressive conditions, yes.

 

[Lexicus]

And still no getting it.

Dude, playing the Morgan Freeman card is not an original move. Sorry to break it to you.

 

[Kyriakos]

Well, yes. Afaik Freeman is highly celebrated as an actor. I do doubt that many treat him as "a black actor", if that is actually a thing for many.
I think that, past some level of (low) debate, people tend to care about the other person only if they deem the other person as good in some way (eg ethical, intelligent, beneficial etc).

 

[inthesomeday]

I kind of understand why they said that. I recall a discussion about a piece of clothing that is very emblematic of my native land: the barong tagalog. The discussion revolved around whether American teenagers wearing it to prom would be cultural appropriation. The prevailing consensus was that Filipinos wouldn't mind, and in face they appreciate being acknowledged in that way. Personally, I agreed with them, I take no offense.

If I saw a white kid wearing a barong I’d fight tbh, luckily in SD most white kids kinda know their place

 

[uppi]

There is a vast body of sociological research demonstrating that this approach (commonly called "colorblind" policy or something similar) does nothing whatever to address racial disparities in housing, employment, schooling, etc. Show me a white person who claims to be able to "forget" that Freeman is black and I'll show you a liar.

You need to understand that European xenophobia is much more "colorblind" than American racism, because it is much more based on cultural differences than on skin tone. An Arabic speaking North African will face discrimination in Europe, but much more because he speaks Arabic than because of his skin tone. An Italian or even a Turk of the same skin tone will face very different attitudes and prejudices. And being "white" doesn't help you against discrimination at all, when you speak the "wrong" language. That doesn't mean that this is any better or that there isn't any racism at all, but the main problem is different, is expressed in different ways and needs different solutions.

Europeans have also realized that the term race is not only nonsensical when applied to humans (especially when used like the Americans use it) but has such a bad history that it is never again to be applied to humans. If you even use the word race unreflectedly, we immediately think of you as a racist.

 

[metatron]

If I saw a white kid wearing a barong I’d fight tbh, luckily in SD most white kids kinda know their place

Do i have to get the picture* and write "#didnotdisappoint"?

*We don't have to guess or argue. You allready know it exists. It just has to.

Europeans have also realized that the term race is not only nonsensical when applied to humans (especially when used like the Americans use it) but has such a bad history that it is never again to be applied to humans. If you even use the word race unreflectedly, we immediately think of you as a racist.

Maybe Lexi has noticed that a bunch of us insist on - if unavoidable - using the term "race" in quotes.

 

[Lexicus]

You need to understand that European xenophobia is much more "colorblind" than American racism, because it is much more based on cultural differences than on skin tone.

Sure. But I think skin tone matters more in Europe than a lot of people think it does. Of course, language matters here too, just nowhere near as much as skin color and facial features.

Europeans have also realized that the term race is not only nonsensical when applied to humans (especially when used like the Americans use it) but has such a bad history that it is never again to be applied to humans.

"highly dubious"