[RD] Cultural Appropriation: The Solution?

[Berzerker]

Should Irish folk be upset when Brits celebrate St Patty's Day?

 

[luiz]

Yes, that was one of the major themes in the comment threads ridiculing this crap.
Something like
Spain *exists*
SJWs: CULTURAL APPROPRIATION

One wrinkle of this, of course, which I know you of all people will appreciate, is that cultural appropriation discourse frequently reifies capitalist relations by applying a sort of "cultural intellectual property" logic. Like because some black people invented [thing] it's in some sense the "cultural property" of all black people. Leaving aside the ugly racial essentialism at the heart of this kind of logic, you'll notice how it sort of conflicts with the logic of anti-capitalism and opposition to private property.

Clearly, the man on the right is "keeping alive" the culture of the man on the left

Yeah. And this point is not missed by at least parts of the left outside of the US: much of "SJW" discourse is its essence very "capitalistic" and "reactionary".

Anyway. My opinion in the whole thing is that surely between the hyper racism and dehumanization of non-whites that prevailed in the US until the 60's and the hyper-hysteria that prevails in American academia and media today, there must be some sane ground. If we are to live together we need to make an effort not to offend others, but we likewise need to make an effort not to be offended by those who mean no offense. Otherwise we might as well go back to tribes and fighting people who look different.

 

[Lexicus]

Anyway. My opinion is the whole thing is that surely between the hyper racism and dehumanization of non-whites that prevailed in the US until the 60's and the hyper-hysteria that prevails in American academia and media today, there must be some sane ground.

We'll make a left-Hegelian of you yet

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Cultural appropriation? Is this another stupid US thing which is eventually exported to the rest of the world making us all a bit more stupid?

 

[Kyriakos]

Cultural appropriation? Is this another stupid US thing which is eventually exported to the rest of the world making us all a bit more stupid?

And the fact that it is the outcome of specific ethnic/racial stuff in the US, makes it even less of a thing/intelligible in most euro countries - let alone in the rest of the world, where they just don't care.

 

[Evie]

My general rule of thumb for cultural appropriation is in two (and a half) parts.

The first is that for a thing to be cultural appropriation, it must involve taking something that is uniquely, distinctively, and actively part of another culture.

Uniquely: it needs to be something that's not in widespread usage across multiple unrelated (or loosely related) cultures. This can be appreciated by a third party observer.

Distinctively: it needs to be something that is representative of that culture, or that carries special significance in that culture. Some elements of a language can be considered distinctive of a culture, but it would be extremely hard to justify in most cases taking the whole language as distinctive. This part is best left to the appreciation of members of the relevant culture.

Actively: it needs to be something that still has its meaning to the original cutlure, or at least had it in very recent memory. Zeus, for example, hasn't been the supreme god for greek people for many centuries. Same with Odin, Ra, etc. Whatever they once were, they are not anymore. They're not actively part of the modern greek, norse, egyptian or celtic cultures.

Another: Duh. If you have a serious claim to being part of the concerned culture (growing up in it, having significant family ties to it, being adopted into it), then it's not appropriation.

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The second is that even if something falls under cultural appropriation, it can still be used provided the use of respectful, sensitive and non-exploitative.

Respectful: the symbol is not used in a way that encourage exoticism or stereotyping of that culture.

Sensitive: The nature, context and meaning of the symbol are used as-is. It's not twisted into something wholly different, or applied to something wholly different (if you use "manitou" to mean a monster of some sort, you're doing it wrong).

Non-exploitative: Your work isn't deriving its ability to turn a profit largely from that other culture (eg, the cultural element plays an overall minor part) ; or if it is, you've worked or will work with them to make sure that they benefit from the work.

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With a final caveat: if you try to deliberately spread your culture (via colonization, conquest, economic domination, assimilation, etc) you don't get to complain about your offshot cultures, or the cultures you imposed yourself upon (militarily or economically), borrowing or using elements from your culture.

 

[Kyriakos]

^Nice, yet it makes sense to ask only signatories to that treaty to follow it, non? ^_^

Most people just wouldn't care. Eg in Europe, where we have other kinds of issues, including Eu countries going full fascist. Cultural appropriation talk would only seem unintelligible/ a bad idea.

 

[Synobun]

Europe does have different problems, yeah. "You guys" have far more overt yet normalized racism going on. Meeting other Belgian immigrants or talking to family overseas became a specifically avoided activity on my part because it would inevitably lead to a random attack against North Africans (with a focus on Moroccans). Not entirely sure how it is now (@The_J could probably answer that) since it's been years since I had contact with my "kin", but I really dreaded those interactions at the time. Then you have the nonsense about Polish people, Muslims in the UK, etc.

America has racism (obviously) but the Civil Rights movement has gone a long way in attempts to obscure it. In some areas, you're in a position where you can focus on varying abstract/debatable cultural issues instead of the big ticket items like brutality, state-sponsored policies, and social normalization of marginalization. It's taboo, for the most part, to be as openly negative about a demographic as you might could be in certain European countries. Depending on audience, of course.

 

[metalhead]

The second is that even if something falls under cultural appropriation, it can still be used provided the use of respectful, sensitive and non-exploitative.

You don't really even need the first part. This is really the heart of it. If you're showing the proper respect to things created by other cultures, appropriating them for your own use is not problematic. It's like the line from the old Eminem song:

I'm not the first king of controversy/I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley/to do Black music so selfishly/and use it to make myself wealthy

So yeah, not a new concept. Not particularly hard to understand, and shouldn't be controversial really. There are certainly arguments to be had about where to draw lines, but surely there are lines to be drawn.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

It must be nice going through life convinced you can use logic to argue away your responsibility for hurting other people's feelings.

Are we using standards or not? If so, what are they? If not, I see no clear reason anybody should apologize to anybody else "because reasons". If this thread topic is relevant, the specific reasoning must also be.

 

[Lexicus]

Are we using standards or not? If so, what are they? If not, I see no clear reason anybody should apologize to anybody else "because reasons". If this thread topic is relevant, the specific reasoning must also be.

An apology is an opportunity to demonstrate that you consider your ego less important than your relationship with another person.

 

[Berzerker]

Is cultural appropriation the opposite of cultural genocide?

Seems to me cultural appropriation leads to investigation and acceptance.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

Europe does have different problems, yeah. "You guys" have far more overt yet normalized racism going on. Meeting other Belgian immigrants or talking to family overseas became a specifically avoided activity on my part because it would inevitably lead to a random attack against North Africans (with a focus on Moroccans). Not entirely sure how it is now (@The_J could probably answer that) since it's been years since I had contact with my "kin", but I really dreaded those interactions at the time. Then you have the nonsense about Polish people, Muslims in the UK, etc.

America has racism (obviously) but the Civil Rights movement has gone a long way in attempts to obscure it. In some areas, you're in a position where you can focus on varying abstract/debatable cultural issues instead of the big ticket items like brutality, state-sponsored policies, and social normalization of marginalization. It's taboo, for the most part, to be as openly negative about a demographic as you might could be in certain European countries. Depending on audience, of course.

Nah, in USA there is true racism deeply ingrained in people culture because slavery and such. You have a problem with true racism there and all the related complexes. European people has not such past, slavery was promoted by european countries but never was a thing IN europe. What you call european racism is more about xenophobia and disdain against poorer immigrants. It is the same for blacks, moroccans, chinese, romanians, south-americans, russians, drunk english or whatever. Race is not that important except for a bunch of crazy skinheads.

 

[Lexicus]

European people has not such past, slavery was promoted by european countries but never was a thing IN europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

Race is not that important except for a bunch of crazy skinheads.

This is delusional...and ironically, this sort of collective self-image is why Europe probably is more racist than the United States these days. We have - arguably - the worse past, but we've begun to come to terms with it. You are still mostly in denial.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

An apology is an opportunity to demonstrate that you consider your ego less important than your relationship with another person.

So no standards after all? Everyone should apologize to everyone in the name of important relationships?

 

[Lexicus]

So no standards after all? Everyone should apologize to everyone in the name of important relationships?

That's for everyone to decide for themselves. But I'll tell you, being so damn right all the time can get lonely.

 

[Chose]

Does it matter? When you hurt someone's feelings, do you use "I didn't mean to" as an excuse to evade responsibility, or do you apologize like an adult?

This post hurt my feelings. Will you apologize like an adult or make up an excuse to evade responsibility?

Merely asserting that something hurt my feeling isn't enough to require an apology. If someone "didn't meant to" offend me, I would want to know, that is very important information for topics like this. This is a very complex issue, but we know the criteria for when something crosses the line can't only be "someone got their feelings hurt". If that was the case, we couldn't say or do much of anything at all.

 

[metatron]

This is delusional...and ironically, this sort of collective self-image is why Europe probably is more racist than the United States these days. We have - arguably - the worse past, but we've begun to come to terms with it. You are still mostly in denial.

No.
The issue here is that we are talking two very different kinds of racism.
You can hardly demand Europeans deal with core tenets of American racism that European racism doesn't have.
The most obvious example would be the one drop rule.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

See above.

 

[Thorgalaeg]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany,

Sure. That was more like utter crazyness. Cant speak for germans though.

This is delusional...and ironically, this sort of collective self-image is why Europe probably is more racist than the United States these days. We have - arguably - the worse past, but we've begun to come to terms with it. You are still mostly in denial.

Sure you have come to terms with it:
https://talkpoverty.org/2016/08/29/...ered-hurricane-katrina-black-new-orleans-not/

You have always concepts like black, white, hispanos, indians in mind. In everything. With possitive or negative intentions. Month of black history, black inventors, civil rights movement, etc... Here we cant have anythink like that because race is not even a thing.

Hear, hear...

 

[stinkubus]

I can't think of any appropriate appropriation of the native headdress.



No, no I have not. I don't think that's required to state my opinion on those two examples.

Now *this* is peak middle-class and up white guy stuff. "I admit I am completely ignorant regarding the issue at hand, but let me opine anyway..."