[RD] Cultural Appropriation: The Solution?

So, do you think everyone complaining about cultural appropriation being offensive to them is in this category?

No, of course not. They cover the full spectrum.

You have to be willing to listen and understand why someone was hurt or offended. Consider it. Surely the line isn't "admit fault every time someone claims offense," but if someone can articulate something reasonable to explain why they're offended, then why not apologize?

Not meaning to offend doesn't absolve one of fault for their behavior. If one is ignorant but willing to learn from unintentional offense, then that's undoubtedly a good thing. Ignorance is curable.

Agreed. Not meaning to offend doesn't absolve. It is, however, still a valuable piece of information that ought to be considered. It should matter, at least to some degree, what the intent was. And it should matter to the person offended.

If you're offended at someone, and you haven't yet considered what the offending party's intentions were, you haven't done your job in a good faith interaction.
 
No, of course not. They cover the full spectrum.

Well, as you can see by my initial posts in this thread, I agree that not all claims of being offended by cultural appropriation are to be treated as ipso facto valid.

If you're offended at someone, and you haven't yet considered what the offending party's intentions were, you haven't done your job in a good faith interaction.

I really don't agree with this and think it is in essence victim-blaming nonsense.
 
You don't really even need the first part. This is really the heart of it. If you're showing the proper respect to things created by other cultures, appropriating them for your own use is not problematic. It's like the line from the old Eminem song:

I'm not the first king of controversy/I am the worst thing since Elvis Presley/to do Black music so selfishly/and use it to make myself wealthy

So yeah, not a new concept. Not particularly hard to understand, and shouldn't be controversial really. There are certainly arguments to be had about where to draw lines, but surely there are lines to be drawn.

I've seen enough local users who shall remain nameless attempting to make ridiculous claims to things that are clearly not unique to a culture or clearly something that hasn't been part of their culture for a millennia or two (in an effort to attack the notion of cultural appropriation) that I prefer to preemptively have sanity checks against their nonsense. Especially as I'm pretty sure some people actually believe that nonsense.
 
Go and try to apply the German word "Rasse" to humans. You can't without sounding like a Nazi.

Well, sure, I don't disagree with that. What I think has happened, though, is that there are a number of other concepts that have gradually come to stand in for "race" and that the underlying concept or logic of inherent human difference is still there.
 
I've seen enough local users who shall remain nameless attempting to make ridiculous claims to things that are clearly not unique to a culture or clearly something that hasn't been part of their culture for a millennia or two (in an effort to attack the notion of cultural appropriation) that I prefer to preemptively have sanity checks against their nonsense. Especially as I'm pretty sure some people actually believe that nonsense.

It is almost as embarrassing as people thinking they'll make others care about their own views because reasons, innit
 
Europe does have different problems, yeah. "You guys" have far more overt yet normalized racism going on. Meeting other Belgian immigrants or talking to family overseas became a specifically avoided activity on my part because it would inevitably lead to a random attack against North Africans (with a focus on Moroccans). Not entirely sure how it is now (@The_J could probably answer that) since it's been years since I had contact with my "kin", but I really dreaded those interactions at the time. Then you have the nonsense about Polish people, Muslims in the UK, etc.

I'm not normally in circles where this would happen, but I've heard (from random people) that it does.



...er... to write a bit more...and to stay at least a bit on topic:
I assume cultural appropriation exists, but there is not a solution as it was asked for, because it's a wrong perception, not reality.
Basically people assume that the intent of the appropriating people is malicious.
It's not (IMHO). It's fun, or not caring, but hardly ever malicious intent. It can be racism, but then it's probably often very obvious.
If you'd not assume the malicious intent (they're stealing our culture, they're misusing our culture, etc), how would the situation look like? A lot different.


Slightly going away from the OP: I wonder why this stuff comes from a country, where actually nearly nobody has really its own culture, because everyone's an immigrant. Or maybe that's the reason.
You're hardly have any, you don't want anyone to take it away.
And then there's the underlying maybe omnipresent subtle racism, which probably enhances this.
Because in my own surrounding, which is quite international, you don't have the underlying racism (I'd assume...), and nobody is that protective of their culture. Everyone like to share. Things like Holi, Diwali, Halloween, Oktoberfest or King's Day are celebrated not on your own, but with everyone who'd like to participate (maybe exceptions to specific extremely religious celebrations).
I'd not know a case though where this happens around here without the native people participating (exception again maybe Halloween, because not enough Americans here), that might change the perception, I have to admit.

EDIT: basically boils down to the question: Why protect your culture, if you instead could promote it?
 
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You need to understand that European xenophobia is much more "colorblind" than American racism, because it is much more based on cultural differences than on skin tone. An Arabic speaking North African will face discrimination in Europe, but much more because he speaks Arabic than because of his skin tone. An Italian or even a Turk of the same skin tone will face very different attitudes and prejudices. And being "white" doesn't help you against discrimination at all, when you speak the "wrong" language. That doesn't mean that this is any better or that there isn't any racism at all, but the main problem is different, is expressed in different ways and needs different solutions.
What you're describing is just racism, though. European racism is not unusual in that it less concerned with physiology, rather, American racism is unusually preoccupied by it.
 
Well... “racism” is exclusive to physiology, though, because it’s such a specific historical occurrence.
 
Well... “racism” is exclusive to physiology, though, because it’s such a specific historical occurrence.

I mean, "race" is a category that has been broadly important in large areas of the world for centuries, and in basically the whole world for the last 150 years. It's not that specific.
 
Well... “racism” is exclusive to physiology, though, because it’s such a specific historical occurrence.
That's hardly self-evident. "Race" wasn't used in a contemporary sense until, really, the post-war period. Through the eighteenth, nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, "race" was very commonly used to describe hypothetical over-ethnic groups, so people talked about "the Nordic race" or "the Celtic race" as if these were obvious and distinct groups, despite the lack of a clear physiological distinction between, say, Scots and Englishmen. It's only in the late nineteenth century that we see coherent attempts to categories humanity into clear and distinct racial types based around physiology, but they were mostly attempts to rationalise existing racial frameworks, rather than some new invention that simply happened to be empirically inaccurate

It's not for nothing that most of these grand racial groupings were almost immediately broken down into lower-tier races or sub-races, which owed very little to physiology but flattered existing assumptions about the nature and relative quality of different ethnics groups. Famously, Europeans were frequently divided into "Nordic", "Alpine" and "Mediterranean" sub-races, which had not basis whatsoever on observable differences between populations, but served to rationalise the assumed superiority of English to Irish, German to Czech, or Italian to Slovene.
 
That's hardly self-evident. "Race" wasn't used in a contemporary sense until, really, the post-war period. Through the eighteenth, nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, "race" was very commonly used to describe hypothetical over-ethnic groups, so people talked about "the Nordic race" or "the Celtic race" as if these were obvious and distinct groups, despite the lack of a clear physiological distinction between, say, Scots and Englishmen. It's only in the late nineteenth century that we see coherent attempts to categories humanity into clear and distinct racial types based around physiology, but they were mostly attempts to rationalise existing racial frameworks, rather than some new invention that simply happened to be empirically inaccurate

It's not for nothing that most of these grand racial groupings were almost immediately broken down into lower-tier races or sub-races, which owed very little to physiology but flattered existing assumptions about the nature and relative quality of different ethnics groups. Famously, Europeans were frequently divided into "Nordic", "Alpine" and "Mediterranean" sub-races, which had not basis whatsoever on observable differences between populations, but served to rationalise the assumed superiority of English to Irish, German to Czech, or Italian to Slovene.
I'm surprised you haven't linked to your favorite picture yet.
Traitorfishs Favorite Picture.jpg
 
But these kind of pseudoscientific theories were not exactly the origins of racism in the 19th century... racism was and is socioeconomic, not cultural. The economic conditions predate the cultural theories.

And material racism has never existed without a physiological marker for its victims. Nobody calls the Holocaust a product of racism, but of Antisemitism, even though the Nazi concepts of the Jew and the Aryan were quite similar to the concepts of “race” like Celt and Alpine.
 
And material racism has never existed without a physiological marker for its victims. Nobody calls the Holocaust a product of racism, but of Antisemitism, even though the Nazi concepts of the Jew and the Aryan were quite similar to the concepts of “race” like Celt and Alpine.

Uh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_antisemitism

But these kind of pseudoscientific theories were not exactly the origins of racism in the 19th century... racism was and is socioeconomic, not cultural. The economic conditions predate the cultural theories.

They developed in tandem.
As Traitorfish noted, the US is a relatively unique case. Racism in the US is more or less inextricably intertwined with class, because the development of the ideology of white supremacy proceeded more or less in tandem with the development of racial slavery. In historical contexts without the US's clear identification of one race as slaves and one race as free, race needs to be analyzed differently.
 
So if a Native person tells you that this
karlie-kloss-victorias-secret-fashion-show-2012.jpg


is offensive, do you consider them analogous to the child complaining irrationally that the scissors are hurting him?

If your answer is yes, we have nothing else to talk about.
I think the above actual hints towards a pretty central but largely overlooked aspect of this debate, which is the distinction between appropriation and disrespect.

We don't know, simply by observing, the background of the person who designed the outfit. We don't know the background of the model. We would probably assume they're white, and we'd probably be right, but it's plausible that they're both Native American to some degree or another.

Now, is using a war bonnet as part of a... I'm going to go ahead and guess swimsuit, disrespectful to the traditions of the Plains nations? Evidently, and a Native person is within their rights to be be offended as a consequence. But is it appropriative? That depends on who's doing it, and we can't simply assume that because it is disrespectful, because it is liable to cause offence, that the person responsible must be from an out-group. There's nothing that says members of the in-group are inherently possessed of the same sense of propriety as any other, let alone an inclination to adhere to that propriety. So, we can't take disrespect, even offense, as evidence of out-group status, and therefore of appropriation. We can make some educated guesses, but we can't assume, and that means we must be looking at two distinct, if frequently-coinciding, phenomena.

Else, we're straying into a creepy sort of ethno-nationalism which holds that there is a Correct way to interact to one's Heritage and that failing to uphold this protocol marks you as either a traitor, impostor or half-breed, and I'd rather leave that sort of thinking for the other side.

But these kind of pseudoscientific theories were not exactly the origins of racism in the 19th century... racism was and is socioeconomic, not cultural. The economic conditions predate the cultural theories.
Well, that's what we're saying. That attempts to rationalise racial categories along physiological lines were overwhelmingly post hoc, that they describes existing social structures rather than empirical realities, even a mistaken reading of them. As I suggested, the way in which they were drawn up is proof of this: nobody would have spent so much time trying to draw out the fine and largely imaginary gradiations between people on either side of the Elbe or the Irish Sea unless this had some existing political significance.

And material racism has never existed without a physiological marker for its victims. Nobody calls the Holocaust a product of racism, but of Antisemitism, even though the Nazi concepts of the Jew and the Aryan were quite similar to the concepts of “race” like Celt and Alpine.
Racism through the sixteenth to early nineteenth centuries wasn't strongly framed in physiological terms. Physiological differences were noted, certainly, by they weren't given nearly as much weight as would be later on, and were treated as one of an assortment of supposed racial characteristics, usually secondarily to character or psychology.

In the Americas, Europeans spilled gallons of ink on the character of native peoples, on the distinctiveness of their psychology from Europeans, on whether this was innate or environmental, whether they were primitive or just different, but don't often stop to dwell on the colour of the skin or the texture of their hair. Even when describing appearance explicitly, they dwell on costume and ornament and tattooing, and when they talk about physiology, they dwell on the height and health of the Natives, on their muscular physique and proud posture, characteristics which were understood as emphasising the differences in lifestyle and character that the writer was drawing between Natives and Europeans, rather than being particularly significant in and of themselves. If they belatedly remembered to add that they had copper skin or black hair, this wasn't taken to indicate much more than the fact that they lived far away from Europe and close to the equator, which was taken pretty much for granted. It's only in the late nineteenth century that Europeans break out the calipers and start treating these characteristics as the defining terms of Indian-ness, rather than as simple and not even particularly strong characteristics of a much more complex set of categories.

There's an incident in Revolutionary-era Kentucky for which I wish I could remember the citation, it's somewhere in the Thwaites Collection, were a peace treaty between white settlers and the Shawnee entailed the return of several white captives-slash-adoptees. Among these were two boys who had been taken as infants and raised as Shawnee. They are returned to their birth-father dressed as Indians, speaking as Indians, carrying themselves as Indians, and their father, upon seeing this, drops to his knees, wailing and hollering, "my boys has become Injuns". This is a statement that would make no sense if race was understood in strictly physiological terms, but the meaning of which was immediately understood by the speaker and by the observer, such that the observer didn't feel the need to elaborate on it, all this commentary coming rather two centuries after the fact by modern scholars.

I'm surprised you haven't linked to your favorite picture yet.
View attachment 495200
Y'know, the funniest thing about this image is, what Englishman has ever looked like that? Like, the "Irish-Iberian" is an unflattering caricature, but it's a caricature of what an Irish person might plausibly look like, while the "Anglo-Teutonic" is a Renaissance painter's idealised face of a Homeric prince.

Which, I suppose, just hammers home the point that they made this stuff up as they go along. The Irish are primitive, so they look like funny peasants. The English are civilised, so they look like Alexander. Nobody has actually bothered to go outside and, like, check.
 
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I think the above actual hints towards a pretty central but largely overlooked aspect of this debate, which is the distinction between appropriation and disrespect.

We don't know, simply by observing, the background of the person who designed the outfit. We don't know the background of the model. We would probably assume they're white, and we'd probably be right, but it's plausible that they're both Native American to some degree or another.

Now, is using a war bonnet as part of a sexy... lingerie? swimwear? whatever.- outfit disrespectful to the traditions of the Plains nations. Evidently, and a Native person is within their rights to be be offended as a consequence. But is it appropriative? That depends on who's doing it, and we can't simply assume that because it is disrespectful, because it is liable to cause offence, that the person responsible must be from an out-group. There's nothing that says members of the in-group are inherently possessed of the same sense of propriety as any other, let alone an inclination to adhere to that propriety. So, we can't take disrespect, even offense, as evidence of out-group status, and therefore of appropriation. We can make some educated guesses, but we can't assume, and that means we must be looking at two distinct, if frequently-coinciding, phenomena.

The sorry fact of the matter is, a lot of supposed progressives are basically just creepy ethno-nationalists who's allegiances don't happen to involve stars and stripes, and that's has gone a long way to poisoning how the left talks about this stuff. There's an assumption that there is a Correct way to interact to one's Heritage and that failing to uphold this protocol marks you as either a traitor, impostor or half-breed.

Now, how much of this is actually originating, and how much of this is white people projecting their weird, fashy assumptions about how other ethnic groups work onto people who didn't ask for it? Beats me, but probably at least a chunk of it.

I agree with this for the most part, and I don't take seriously anyone who presumes to speak for their whole racial group. But I adjust what I say and do to the audience's sensibilities, even if I don't necessarily "agree with" people's reasons for being offended, because I think that's just part of good taste.

To me what is harmful about the picture in an 'objective' sense is the relations of domination that produce the commodities. On top of that the exoticization of people we exterminated, to make money for white people, is bad.

If Native Americans wanted to come together to market this kind of clothing and use the wealth to build their own communities I don't think too many people would be calling it cultural appropriation.

Out of curiosity, did you read my first post in this thread?
 

What does this link refute? The Holocaust was an Antisemitic program, not a racist one.

They developed in tandem.

Probably not. There was racism before race— slavery against Africans and Native Americans predated the construction of racialized identities around those groups.

As Traitorfish noted, the US is a relatively unique case. Racism in the US is more or less inextricably intertwined with class, because the development of the ideology of white supremacy proceeded more or less in tandem with the development of racial slavery.

All racism is inextricably intertwined with class because it’s a relationship between two or more socioeconomic classes. If it’s not rooted in a social or economic relationship, it’s not racism. If it doesn’t deal with race— skin-deep physiological differences created to justify racism— it’s not racism.

In historical contexts without the US's clear identification of one race as slaves and one race as free, race needs to be analyzed differently.

But without a slave race and a free race there is no race at all.
 
I agree with this for the most part, and I don't take seriously anyone who presumes to speak for their whole racial group. But I adjust what I say and do to the audience's sensibilities, even if I don't necessarily "agree with" people's reasons for being offended, because I think that's just part of good taste.

To me what is harmful about the picture in an 'objective' sense is the relations of domination that produce the commodities. On top of that the exoticization of people we exterminated, to make money for white people, is bad.

If Native Americans wanted to come together to market this kind of clothing and use the wealth to build their own communities I don't think too many people would be calling it cultural appropriation.

Out of curiosity, did you read my first post in this thread?
I did, and I should clarify, my comment wasn't meant as a rebuttal to what you were saying specifically, just using it as a jumping-off point, because I think the image in question, the combination of the controversial imagery (sexy warbonnet) and the lack of deeper context (white-passing but undefined model, invisible designer) prompted it. I felt that it was worth going beyond the point you had made about existentialism to add that not only the trappings or content of a given culture but how people relate to those things is almost not innate or essential, and that this has implications for what we identify as and therefore how we talk about "appropriation".

What does this link refute? The Holocaust was an Antisemitic program, not a racist one.
The Nazis explicitly framed their national and ethnic policies in racial terms, and not just those pertaining to Jews. It's not a great leap to assume that when the Nazis said "race", they meant "race".

But without a slave race and a free race there is no race at all.
Indians weren't defined as a servile class, though, at least not in British and French America. (Spanish America is more complicated.) They were frequently enslaved, sure, slavery was never characteristic of Indians as a group, as it was taken to be for Africans. What defined them was if anything was precisely their place outside white society, their place outside of the white social order. Not just the "wild" Indians beyond the frontier, but those "civilised" Indians living on or behind the Frontier, who worked as guides, hunters and mercenaries, porters, whalers and traders. Low-status jobs, sure, but on the fringes of white society and the white social order, and therefore possessed of a certain rougish freedom that was the cause of much concern to the good moralistic elites of Protestant America.

Among the British colonists of North America, in particular, this wildest was hugely important in defining the Indian, as it had been in defining the Gael back home. Subjugation may be an ambition, but precisely because it was an ambition it was something to be realised, to be acted upon, not simply their natural state of affairs.
 
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I got quite confused reading that, I thought you meant like Indian subcontinent. Native Americans who lived on European land before perhaps the Seven Years War were either slaves or not-yet-captured. The only interaction between Europeans and Natives for centuries was genocide or slavery, nearly without exception.
 
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