Cultural appropriation

New Year's Cake? They look nothing like cake, and a lot like icecream cones.

Actually, trawling the internet for the things, and they look a lot like brandy snaps. Which are indeed quite hard. Though I never tried to make them, not really having a taste for such.

edit: Nah! On second thoughts, that's not what they are. I dunno, then.
 
That's the point with the belly-dancing.
Western yoga is essentially gymnastics with a funny label. It has changed. And it is virtually completely devoid of rāja yoga. That's fine.
The Western belly dancers however (most of them) are not integrating the belly dance into their own culture. And they are not persueing a faithful rendition of the custom in its original cultural context.
It's pretty hard to fail at both, to not do either. You kinda have to do it on purpose. And they do. And typically, to fail at both, you have to use the custom to immitate, to fake immerse you into your fantasy of the original culture.

How is that harmful in any way though? They're just bellydancing. Maybe they enjoy it?

I don't think we should be placing any sort of demands on people when they want to engage in an activity that isn't hurting anybody. You want to do a dance that only the tribesmen from a specific tribe in Kenya perform? Go for it! Just don't do it with malice in mind, do it for your own personal love of whatever. And if somebody walks up to you and says "I'm from Kenya, I find your performance distasteful for reason X"? Then you can sit down with that person and try to figure out what exactly is offensive about what you have been doing and how the situation can be remedied.

When I go out to do stuff I enjoy, why should I have to try to integrate it with whatever culture I am a part of OR perform it exactly like the people who invented it choose to perform it? I was born in Poland but live in Canada - why can't I mix and match cultural elements from both cultures? Some Canadian customs get performed, some Polish customs get performed, and some get mixed. Why should there be rules on what I can and can't do, if the activities originate in a foreign culture?

I say do what you want, just don't be a jerk about it. Your way seems too limiting, and for no good reason.

Having said that there ARE some cultural displays that should be handled with care, but IMO they form the exception rather than the rule.
 
They're not white-facing, because, that's the kicker, they're not doing it to be or feel European.
See, now I really disagree on this about the Japanese.

The Japanese did adopt Western dress, culture and mannerisms almost wholesale, precisely because they did want to be, appear, and feel, European.

It was a really strange process. At almost the same time that trendy Westerners were trying out futons the Japanese were busy buying up Westerner style bedsteads.

It's a kind of cargo cult thing: one lot of people see another being apparently successful (for a given value of success) and think that one way to do so is to emulate them in almost everything. A kind of superstitious behaviour, in a way.

In like fashion, the Chinese now apparently think that the way to be, and appear, successful is to fill their cities with motor cars and industrial plants. And for their middle classes to go on touristic spending sprees in Europe. Clickety click camera snapshots. McDonalds and Coca-Cola.
 
How is that harmful in any way though? They're just bellydancing. Maybe they enjoy it?
We could say that about blackfacing.
You want to do a dance that only the tribesmen from a specific tribe in Kenya perform? Go for it! Just don't do it with malice in mind, do it for your own personal love of whatever.
If i do that, or if you'd do that one of the two things would be bound to happen:
We'd either go for a faithful rendition, or - with the motivaton you are presuming here - the dance would change. Like automatically. A Kenyan observer could see that it is our dance now, not the same thing anymore and neither a representation nor an imitation of their dance.
Sure, the difference would be small at first. And there are all sorts of gray areas to this.
But the article is about people who have studied belly-dancing for a decade or longer. At that point the gray areas become fewer and fewer.

Don't get me wrong: In my view this insulting effect is rather hard to produce and applies to rather few things. And i by no means want to judge all western belly dancers here. But i can fundamentally see the article's author's point.
 
See, now I really disagree on this about the Japanese.

The Japanese did adopt Western dress, culture and mannerisms almost wholesale, precisely because they did want to be, appear, and feel, European.

It was a really strange process. At almost the same time that trendy Westerners were trying out futons the Japanese were busy buying up Westerner style bedsteads.

It's a kind of cargo cult thing: one lot of people see another being apparently successful (for a given value of success) and think that one way to do so is to emulate them in almost everything. A kind of superstitious behaviour, in a way.

In like fashion, the Chinese now apparently think that the way to be, and appear, successful is to fill their cities with motor cars and industrial plants. And for their middle classes to go on touristic spending sprees in Europe. Clickety click camera snapshots. McDonalds and Coca-Cola.
Yeah, there we are in the gray areas.
The dyed hair in Japan: I don't think, they are mostly not doing that to look European. Not anymore anyway.
The Chinese fashion and tourism. Is suppose you are on to something there. Though i'm not sure if there is a point to arguing about political correctness in China.

It's also different for societies and individuals. Mostly in terms of inertia. The Chinese, will probably stick with western fashion, but in time they will think about it in a fundamentally different way. It will be there fashion - for many Chinese it probably already is. That doesn't mean that there wouldn't be an exchange in influences anymore.
As i said: The perspective of the appropriotor is often the crucial element.
Anyway: This processess of seeing the appropriated thing as your own and not treating it like a "copy" anymore may take longer for societies than for individuals, i suppose.
 
The Japanese did adopt Western dress, culture and mannerisms almost wholesale, precisely because they did want to be, appear, and feel, European.

Dress was not an important aspect of Japanese culture, and the adoption of Western dress styles in Japan in the late 19th century was primarily seen as a modernisation project, not as an attempt to become more European.
 
We could say that about blackfacing.

Of course, and if somebody dons blackface and has no idea about the historical connotations of blackface to racism, then they're doing this not with malice in mind, which is fine. Fine until somebody points out that what they are doing could be construed as being offensive - in which case that person now has new information to act on.

Who gets offended by bellydancing though? Does anyone from the culture where it was invented care that white people are bellydancing? I really doubt it.

And that's the kicker - some things are offensive for historical reasons, like blackface. A lot of things aren't. You can't just come up with rules to regulate the behaviour of humans based on these exceptions if these rules you come up with are going to affect a whole crapload of more scenarios, like bellydancing and yoga.

Don't get me wrong: In my view this insulting effect is rather hard to produce and applies to rather few things. And i by no means want to judge all western belly dancers here. But i can fundamentally see the article's author's point.

Me? I think the author didn't have anything better to write about and couldn't come up with a topic. So she went with this, because her boss wanted something on his desk by 5.

I'm trying to think of an example of when I'd be offended by somebody "appropriating" Polish culture somehow. The only things I can think of are examples of people wanting to be douchebags on purpose.

You baked a pie and you want to call it a pierog? Knock yourself out! You want to do the traditional Silesian folk dance? And you're not Polish? Whatever, what do I care? Unless these people are attempting to be insulting on purpose, then who cares what they do? Let them do what they want, they're not hurting anyone.

It's just such a strange thought to me that.. okay, say that culture A came up with activity X 150 years before culture B came up with it. So now culture B has to worry about how to engage in activity X? It just doesn't work on a general level.

It makes far more sense to me to let people do what they want, and if there's accusasions of asshattery, investigate these allegations on a one on one basis. Having a rule on how you can behave if you are about to engage in an activity first invented by another culture.. That seems silly to me.. and unproductive. Be respectful, do what you want, and if people have issue with it, we'll take it from there. That makes a lot more sense to me.

Her article would make a lot more sense to me if it was about bellydancing in particular. "These people are insulting belly dancing heritage" or whatever. Okay, I might disagree that this is likely, but anything's possible, right? Maybe belly dancing in some places is a sacred activity akin to baptism in Christianity or marriage or a funeral or whatever? Maybe some cultures really do have specific rules about bellydancing and how it can be performed and it's really serious business? And these people are in an uproar and are setting buildings on fire and marching through the streets and stuff? And maybe it really does hurt them emotionally to have all this unsanctioned bellydancing take place performed under totally not acceptable conditions? I have no idea, I don't keep up with the belly dancing world, maybe all this is really happening.. and maybe all the white people who bellydance are doing it as a joke - to annoy and insult all those people marching through the streets. Okay, if that's the sort of thing the article was about, alright! Now that's a decent article. It has a point, a hypothesis, and an explanation of how it was arrived at. It's specific and seemingly reasonable, as a point.

But no, she had to write an article about "cultural appropriation", a very vague and general concept. She also made it very much about race. She made it about absolutes. And that's just bs, because it's impossible to generalize on that level. It's making me think that the author just picked a random possible "issue" out of thin air to write about because her boss wanted something on his desk by 5pm... or she has a bone to pick with someone or something. Either way, not something I'd label as a good or even decent point or even one that's possible to see.
 
@warpus

I'm not proposing a rule here. Not at all.

And i'm very much saying it can't be generalised. But i can see that the author may genuinely believe this and that it may have merit in some situations. And i can easily see how these situations may be unusually common with belly-dancing.
And i'm ok with your objections. The absolutes are nonsense. The blanket condemnation of appropriation is obviously nonsense. Etc.

I can't really give you an example regarding Polish culture. I don't know enough details of Polish culture (you know... how stuff actually feels and what significance it has) to do so.
 
I just realized how much I wrote in that post and what sort of tone it might have carried.

I don't really feel that strongly about any of this, I was just sort of going on a rant. From the looks of things we pretty much agree on the main points. I don't know anything about belly dancing at all like I said so about that I have no idea either.
 
Apparently the sight of "Little Egypt" belly dancing nearly made Mark Twain have a fit.


Link to video.

I'm full of little snippets of useless information, aren't I? No, no. It's OK. Don't thank me.

edit: don't blame me for the quality of the film; it's very old.
 
So, Borachio, any word on when the UK will finally issue a warrant against this criminal?

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He is clearly using the guise of comedy, to wear that guise.
BBC was a racist hive from the start :shake:
 
No problem. I took it as you just thoroughly poking and proding the thing for discovery's sake.

Hmm, i don't know. I knew women, who did belly dancing. And what they did was probably not bad. But if i imagine the things the author described, like more overdone costumes and silly jewelry, i could see how the whole thing would look... very odd, to say the least.
And i'm me, not a middle eastern woman.

It looks odd for sure, but so does non-Irish people dressing up in green and celebrating an Irish national holiday maybe. Until you get used to it.
 
I agree, warpus. It's very sad that people need an excuse to drink beer.
 
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