Current v1.13 Development Discussion

[citis]

I have a few general questions.

How come sometimes you can't request another civ to change their civics? In one game, I'm running central planning, but I can't ask my vassals to switch to central planning, or any civic for that matter. I know that they have the required techs.

Similarly, how come sometimes I can't trade a city to another civ? The list of cities doesn't even appear in the trade menu. I can trade cities to some civs but not others.

On a side note, is it correct that there is an outdated penatly for all organization civics other than totalitarianism and egalitarianism after you discover communism? It has nothing to do with central planning which is the civic unlocked by communism. If you research communism before fascism, then the only choice is egalitarianism. It seems like representation should be acceptable at least until fascism is discovered.

How is the stability penalty for losing wars calculated? I was fighting multiple wars, but I believe that I was winning the wars as I was able to sue for peace with things added on my opponent's side of the trade.

Finally, in my attached screenshot, what does the column with the red circle represent on the city info screen? The values are 12, 10, 10, 9, 9, etc.

You can't request a civ to change its civics if it has changed in the recent past. It works the same way as for you i.e. a couple of turns after a revolution, you can't change civics.

You can't trade away your cities to your vassals. The only exception is if it causes revolts, I think. (However, I agree that you should be able to trade away core cities, or your vassal shouldn't collapse due to that. Maybe core cities held by master should count as vassal's for vassal stability?).

The penalty for central planning makes sence. If you are forced to live with outdated civics, then wait some turns more. Historically, communism was adopted 70 years after it was invented.

The war penalty is based on war wareness AFAIK. Even if you win your soldiers want to go back to their homes, and they don't want to die in the field.

 

[Leoreth]

War weariness plays a role in your war stability score, but it's not the main contributor.

 

[SilchasRuin]

So, I've been trying to do UHVs for Egypt, Harrapa, and Polynesia on monarch (epic speed), and I'm having a lot of issues. I've posted in the strategy thread so I'm not going to ask for strategy on how to do things (although I do not see how the 2nd Polynesian UHV is even possible). I just wanted to ask what difficulty are the UHVs balanced for?

I also want to comment on what I see as a major flaw in the UHVs, especially for some of the earlier civs. Basically, I don't think that you should have to make any gimmicky plays to get the UHV, or rely on luck. A UHV should be achievable through good, solid, civ play. Obviously one can't play exactly as if you weren't going for the UHV, but to rely on doing stuff like settling on a resource away from the starting location, or warrior rushing/choking other AIs to stop them from building your wonder or researching the tech you need for the UHV, seems like a design flaw to me. My favourite RFC modmods are RFCA and Sword of Islam, in part because the UHVs do not require any really non-standard, gimmicky play.
Also, if culture is going to expand in the way that it is, I think the player should have some control over it, and having 2 or 3 tiles outside of your core/historical area should not be enough to cause a crisis that completely destroys a city situated within your core.

 

[agentxorange]

So, I've been trying to do UHVs for Egypt, Harrapa, and Polynesia on monarch (epic speed), and I'm having a lot of issues. I've posted in the strategy thread so I'm not going to ask for strategy on how to do things (although I do not see how the 2nd Polynesian UHV is even possible). I just wanted to ask what difficulty are the UHVs balanced for?

I also want to comment on what I see as a major flaw in the UHVs, especially for some of the earlier civs. Basically, I don't think that you should have to make any gimmicky plays to get the UHV, or rely on luck. A UHV should be achievable through good, solid, civ play. Obviously one can't play exactly as if you weren't going for the UHV, but to rely on doing stuff like settling on a resource away from the starting location, or warrior rushing/choking other AIs to stop them from building your wonder or researching the tech you need for the UHV, seems like a design flaw to me. My favourite RFC modmods are RFCA and Sword of Islam, in part because the UHVs do not require any really non-standard, gimmicky play.
Also, if culture is going to expand in the way that it is, I think the player should have some control over it, and having 2 or 3 tiles outside of your core/historical area should not be enough to cause a crisis that completely destroys a city situated within your core.

There's no gimmicky play needed for any of them. I don't know what "good, solid civ play" is, but you can't take forever to do things and sometimes you don't necessarily have a lot of time to build up infrastructure. There is a right way to do things when doing the UHVs.

Whatever you're doing is incorrect... Egypt and Polynesia are extremely doable and are actually both on the easy side. I'm not sure why you would say that the mod is at fault for you failing to do them.

 

[citis]

So, I've been trying to do UHVs for Egypt, Harrapa, and Polynesia on monarch (epic speed), and I'm having a lot of issues. I've posted in the strategy thread so I'm not going to ask for strategy on how to do things (although I do not see how the 2nd Polynesian UHV is even possible). I just wanted to ask what difficulty are the UHVs balanced for?

I also want to comment on what I see as a major flaw in the UHVs, especially for some of the earlier civs. Basically, I don't think that you should have to make any gimmicky plays to get the UHV, or rely on luck. A UHV should be achievable through good, solid, civ play. Obviously one can't play exactly as if you weren't going for the UHV, but to rely on doing stuff like settling on a resource away from the starting location, or warrior rushing/choking other AIs to stop them from building your wonder or researching the tech you need for the UHV, seems like a design flaw to me. My favourite RFC modmods are RFCA and Sword of Islam, in part because the UHVs do not require any really non-standard, gimmicky play.
Also, if culture is going to expand in the way that it is, I think the player should have some control over it, and having 2 or 3 tiles outside of your core/historical area should not be enough to cause a crisis that completely destroys a city situated within your core.

UHVs are balanced for regent, so it should be possible to do them in this difficulty level. These kind of strategies apply in more difficult difficulties like emperor or paragon.

The only civ that hs problems like what you said is Maya. But it's ok to have such a civ in the game, every civ should correspond to different gameplay style (as long as it remains one).

 

[SilchasRuin]

I guess I just need to keep trying. The main thing that made me talk about gimmicky plays is actually some of the stuff I've been reading on the strategy thread. Especially stuff about settling on resources, and relying on luck. Egypt for example, from what I've seen you need the Sphinx to do Egypt. But you can't build both the Sphinx and the Pyramids if Babylon also goes for either of them. That's what I mean by relying on luck.

Another way of looking at the issues I have with these UHVs is with an example from RFCA. I had a lot of problems with the Indo-Greek first UHV, but I knew that all I needed to do to get it was to refine my play. By this I mean, optimize worker-turns, know when/where to chop and whip, that sort of thing. From what I've seen in the strategy thread, that's not enough. I need to settle certain spots, rely on luck, etc to achieve the UHVs, rather that simply playing better. Looking at it again, I think I can see how Polynesia should be done, I clearly went for the wrong places for UHV 1, which messed me up for UHV 2. I'll keep going and maybe I'll come back later to take back what I said.

 

[Leoreth]

Yes, it's balanced for Regent (that's why it's the standard difficulty setting).

What balanced really means is that I (virtually) win all UHVs I design before finalizing them. And I consider myself a rather average player. I also don't like gimmicky play at all, so you can count on the goals being doable by normal play, so no reason to listen to all these strategies.

What's tripping you up about early UHVs is probably that they are often on tight time limits so one mistake is already hard to recover from. I suggest you question some of the standard more long term minded things you do when beginning your games.

 

[SilchasRuin]

Well, I guess i just need to keep trying, I have now done the Polynesian UHVs, and am now working on Egypt. I certainly am streamlining my play on these UHVs, in all my previous Egypt attempts, I never even get archery tech, I just don't know how to get the literature tech on time, or get the required culture without several GA, and I end up relying on luck, that my GPs are artists, and not engineers or prophets, due to the wonders and other specialists. Getting lit, I suppose just requires better teching, but having to rely on luck for the sphinx, not getting attacked by greece or rome, and getting the right GPs seems a bit much. Maybe it's all doable without luck, but I can't see how, at the moment

 

[agentxorange]

Well, I guess i just need to keep trying, I have now done the Polynesian UHVs, and am now working on Egypt. I certainly am streamlining my play on these UHVs, in all my previous Egypt attempts, I never even get archery tech, I just don't know how to get the literature tech on time, or get the required culture without several GA, and I end up relying on luck, that my GPs are artists, and not engineers or prophets, due to the wonders and other specialists. Getting lit, I suppose just requires better teching, but having to rely on luck for the sphinx, not getting attacked by greece or rome, and getting the right GPs seems a bit much. Maybe it's all doable without luck, but I can't see how, at the moment

You should never have to rely on luck, although you can be severely unlucky (bad random events?). If you find you can't finish the wonders, make sure you whip for them, and consider better city placement. For the Egyptian capital I usually settle 1N of starting location (you get the wheat and lose gold on the desert, better trade off tbh especially since you start off with Agriculture). Good use of GAs is important, and getting a great engineer is usually helpful for completing the Great Lighthouse or Library. Better teching is important and you can also invade Greece so that they don't finish anything before you. You can't take your time doing any of this, but if you get it down right the culture UHVs are extremely easy, and then it's just figuring out how to get the wonders.

 

[citis]

What balanced really means is that I (virtually) win all UHVs I design before finalizing them.

I am interested in hearing your strategies to be honest. Or if you don't want to reveal them, maybe tell us if there are civs their "yours" strategy isn't revealed.

 

[Leoreth]

I don't know if that's really interesting, and it would probably be unfair in some cases because I usually do the goals with some idea of what would be hard to accomplish for me, or require an unusual approach, and then I try to do it. Which gives me kind of an advantage because I already know what the goal is supposed to be about.

 

[citis]

I don't know if that's really interesting,

It is.

and it would probably be unfair in some cases because I usually do the goals with some idea of what would be hard to accomplish for me, or require an unusual approach

unfair? hard to accomplish for you? (that explains why goals are a little bit difficult)

unusual approach? That's the interesting part. Have we revealed this "unusual approach" for all civs or we find new unexpected to you ways to complete the goals?

 

[Leoreth]

I don't pay that much attention to strategies people use to beat the UHVs, that would just compel me to change them.

By unusual I mean they require an unusual way to play the game, compared to BtS.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

What factors into happiness for domestic stability? I get large maluses for unhappiness but my happiness always equals or exceeds my unhappiness.

EDIT: Now that I've looked, it's nearly impossible to get a good happiness stability early on when OCCing, as the non-crowding unhappiness always exceeds population early in the game if you do even one thing that creates unhappiness. Do you think that you could lessen the penalty for either the capital or if only 1 city is owned?

 

[Leoreth]

Non-crowing unhappiness?

 

[Tigranes]

While waiting for updates I was unsuccessfully trying Persia for the last 4-5 days. I have done Persia with old stability and old UP, so, long time ago, and now things feel very, very different. Quite frankly I do not feel any UP in early game. Greece has to be killed by turn 115, and there is no time to grow cities in the core in order to enlarge overexpansion limit. Also only the north-easternmost tile in Africa is Historical for Persia. I wonder why? If Egypt was Ninth Satrapy.

 

[mrrandomplayer]

Non-crowing unhappiness?

Non-crowding, my bad.

 

[citis]

While waiting for updates I was unsuccessfully trying Persia for the last 4-5 days. I have done Persia with old stability and old UP, so, long time ago, and now things feel very, very different. Quite frankly I do not feel any UP in early game. Greece has to be killed by turn 115, and there is no time to grow cities in the core in order to enlarge overexpansion limit. Also only the north-easternmost tile in Africa is Historical for Persia. I wonder why? If Egypt was Ninth Satrapy.

You don't need to kil Greece before conquerors. You can have axes and horse archers by then. (If you promote them to "+50% vs melee units" you can handle conquerors).

 

[Leoreth]

Non-crowding, my bad.

Oh, now I get it. Maybe the threshold is too harsh for small cities, I'll look at it again. Not too fond of extra rules for OCC.

 

[Tigranes]

You don't need to kil Greece before conquerors. You can have axes and horse archers by then. (If you promote them to "+50% vs melee units" you can handle conquerors).

You need those in all the right places and many of them, much easier to kill Greece, but it gives you big stability hit, razing cities do not help either (-2 for each city). Greece was something Persians wanted but could not achieve, why should we get so many penalties for the foreign core even in the Northern Greece?

By the way, I keep examining different tiles from Persian perspective and discovering very odd tile labeling. Like Jerusalem tile is Contested, but the one next to it is foreign core! Same with Babylon -- 1 SW is red for Persia. No wonder my cup is always overflowing.

If 8% is Historical victory --- more tiles need to be contested/historical for Persia. At least both Egypt and Greece tiles.