[RD] Daily Graphs and Charts

[warpus]

What's the big deal with a form asking your race or ethnicity? It's significant biographical information, so if its pertinent, it seems harmless.

Maybe it's a generational thing.

I don't mind if they ask me my ethnicity, but they were also asking me if I'm a "visible minority".

I found that offensive and refused to answer. They didn't like it, but eventually left me alone.

 

[GoodSarmatian]

What's the big deal with a form asking your race or ethnicity? It's significant biographical information, so if its pertinent, it seems harmless.

Maybe it's a generational thing.

Why is it significant ? What's valuable about that piece of information ? If you deem ethnic or cultural background important, why not ask about ethnicity instead of some attribute that lumps an African American who is directly decended from slaves together with a first generation immigrant from Ethiopia ?

 

[Borachio]

What's the big deal with a form asking your race or ethnicity? It's significant biographical information, so if its pertinent, it seems harmless.

Maybe it's a generational thing.

There's a number of things that make it problematic for me. Among them are:

I honestly don't know what mine is. It doesn't appear on any documentation that I have been issued with. It really isn't like age or eye colour (and even with eye colour I'd have trouble telling you. The colouring of my eyes is quite complex, and I suspect most people's are.)

Why should I make something up about it?

What's the purpose of asking for this information in the first place?

And do I trust the people who are asking for this information?

 

[Domen]

What's valuable about that piece of information ? If you deem ethnic or cultural background important, why not ask about ethnicity instead of some attribute that lumps an African American who is directly decended from slaves together with a first generation immigrant from Ethiopia ?

For me it's quite funny that in that 2010 census in question 6. (on race) they lumped all Whites together (and this White category includes North Africans and Middle Easterners - see below*), they lumped all Black Africans together (so for example an Ethiopian is part of the same race as a Nigerian and a Khoisan according to them) - while, ON THE OTHER HAND, breaking down North-East Asians, South-East Asians and Pacific Islanders into a ridiculously large number of separate race groups... Why did they count the Chinese, the Japanese and the Koreans as 3 separate races? Or why did they assign a separate category to inhabitants of almost every island in the Pacific? There are Melanesians, Polynesians, etc. - no need to break them down into each island.

*Definition of "White" from the 2010 census in the USA:

BTW - these who are most concerned about the dwindling % of "Whites" in the USA, usually count Middle Easterners and North Africans as "Browns".

So "bad news" for them is that the real number of what they define as "Whites" must be even smaller than according to the census.

Of course the number of people of North African or Middle Eastern origin in the USA is not very significant (most probably around 2,5 - 3 million).

 

[Arwon]

Race on the US Census form is kind of an odd bit of folk etymology as far as census questions go. A mixture of ethnicity, national origin, skin colour, and even cultural perceptions around race.

For policy and data purposes the question really basically wants to identify where the black people are (stuff that wouldn't fall out of say the national origin question) but obviously runs up against the diverse reality of the US population and so needs all those other options.

 

[Cutlass]

Race on the US Census form is kind of an odd bit of folk etymology as far as census questions go. A mixture of ethnicity, national origin, skin colour, and even cultural perceptions around race.

For policy and data purposes the question really basically wants to identify where the black people are (stuff that wouldn't fall out of say the national origin question) but obviously runs up against the diverse reality of the US population and so needs all those other options.

To further this, to the US Census, racial identity is entirely a matter of self-identification. The Census cannot label you black or white. Only you can do so. and they have to accept what you say. Hispanic or Latino is a tangent to the US Census, as they are not considered race. But are counted. So a Hispanic person could call themselves any of a number of races. Although many of them use their nation of origin in the race category. So someone might call themselves Hispanic-Cuban-White.

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't mind if they ask me my ethnicity, but they were also asking me if I'm a "visible minority".

I found that offensive and refused to answer. They didn't like it, but eventually left me alone.

Okay, but why did you find it offensive?

Why is it significant ? What's valuable about that piece of information ? If you deem ethnic or cultural background important, why not ask about ethnicity instead of some attribute that lumps an African American who is directly decended from slaves together with a first generation immigrant from Ethiopia ?

You're asking why the racial makeup of a population significant? That seems like a naive question.

I agree that the US census doesn't seem very well constructed- as Arwon says, it seems to lump a bunch of different factors together under the label "race"- but that doesn't explain the defensive reactions I'm seeing here. I mean, I had to fill out a survey

There's a number of things that make it problematic for me. Among them are:

I honestly don't know what mine is. It doesn't appear on any documentation that I have been issued with. It really isn't like age or eye colour (and even with eye colour I'd have trouble telling you. The colouring of my eyes is quite complex, and I suspect most people's are.)

Why should I make something up about it?

What's the purpose of asking for this information in the first place?

And do I trust the people who are asking for this information?

"White British"; they're hoping you don't; charting demographic change; you trust them with far more important information already.

 

[Borachio]

What makes you think I'm "White British" when I don't know this myself?

And you misunderstand me. I say "make something up" because I wouldn't have any alternative: having no information about my ethnicity other than what I pull out of thin air. This is what's so daft about ethnicity altogether: it's a totally self-determined category. Why should I play this game?

And I don't trust them with far more important information already. The only information they have I have no alternative but give them. Or they have it already. There's no trust involved here at all.

 

[Arwon]

Who is "them", Borachio? The Office of National Statistics are an independent agency who don't and can't share your personally-identifying information with anyone.

To further this, to the US Census, racial identity is entirely a matter of self-identification. The Census cannot label you black or white. Only you can do so. and they have to accept what you say. Hispanic or Latino is a tangent to the US Census, as they are not considered race. But are counted. So a Hispanic person could call themselves any of a number of races. Although many of them use their nation of origin in the race category. So someone might call themselves Hispanic-Cuban-White.

Self identification is kind of a fundamental feature of all questions on all censuses in all countries, of course.

 

[Borachio]

It's not just them who ask for the information it seems to me. I'm not infrequently asked for my ethnicity. But never told why the information is needed.

And how should I know what use even, or especially, the Office of National Statistics put their information to? For all I know they've a direct link to GCHQ.

No. Someone wants to put me in some racial category, let them do it. I can't stop them. But don't expect me to do the job myself. Especially when I don't even have the information to do so.

 

[Domen]

This chart was allegedly used by Soviet police to help them identify ethnicity of suspects (in which of Soviet Republics they most likely lived):

I wonder how efficient or helpful in such identification that chart actually was, probably not much. But I can see Vladimir Lenin over there...

 

[Arwon]

It's not just them who ask for the information it seems to me. I'm not infrequently asked for my ethnicity. But never told why the information is needed.

And how should I know what use even, or especially, the Office of National Statistics put their information to? For all I know they've a direct link to GCHQ.

No. Someone wants to put me in some racial category, let them do it. I can't stop them. But don't expect me to do the job myself. Especially when I don't even have the information to do so.

ONS, as a national statistics agency, are extremely unlikely to give your information to anybody. To do so would destroy their ability to do their job, because that job depends on independence and trust by people being asked for information.

That's why they're independent - so they're above that sort of pressure.

In WW2 Australia's equivalent, for example (disclosure: I work for 'em), elected to burn all the census records before they could be ordered by the government to hand them over to the Tax Office for tax evasion enforcement purposes. Such pressures would be impossible now due to full statutory independence - which the ONS also has.

 

[Borachio]

The ethnicity data used in UK national statistics relies on individuals' self-definition. The Office for National Statistics explain this as follows:

Is a person's ethnic group self-defined?

Yes. Membership of an ethnic group is something that is subjectively meaningful to the person concerned, and this is the principal basis for ethnic categorisation in the United Kingdom. So, in ethnic group questions, we are unable to base ethnic identification upon objective, quantifiable information as we would, say, for age or gender. And this means that we should rather ask people which group they see themselves as belonging to

OK. Then the ONS, and presumably everyone else, will have no trouble at all if I don't self-identify as belonging to any ethnicity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_ethnicity_in_the_United_Kingdom

 

[Domen]

I don't self-identify as belonging to any ethnicity.

Maybe choose Essexian/Suffolkish or Sealandish? Because why not.

 

[Traitorfish]

What makes you think I'm "White British" when I don't know this myself?

You're white and you're British. It's not a complicated set of options they give you.

edit: Relevant section, 2011 census:

Spoiler :

 

[Borachio]

British, I'll grant you. Because it says so on my passport.

It says nothing about me being "white". And I'm not. It's a more pasty shade of greyish green than I'm comfortable with.

But as I've said previously, I only ever met one grandparent, and saw photos of only the other three plus two great grandparents.

My other ancestors could have been literally anyone from anywhere.

 

[Domen]

Borachio,

Once people stop reporting ethnicity, affirmative action for certain ethnic groups won't be possible.

And I guess this is probably what bothers Traitorfish so much, that he encourages you to report it.

 

[Borachio]

I'll give you that.

That's about the only excuse for it that comes even close to being reasonable.

But call me mistrustful all you like, I don't imagine that that's the only reason for it. Even if it's true.

As for affirmative action, just stop being racist to begin with is all I ask.

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Maybe choose Essexian/Suffolkish or Sealandish? Because why not.

I would probably write Jedi/Klingon/Ulmian/Omskian/Timurid/Orlesian/Qunari/etc

 

[Traitorfish]

British, I'll grant you. Because it says so on my passport.

It says nothing about me being "white". And I'm not. It's a more pasty shade of greyish green than I'm comfortable with.

But as I've said previously, I only ever met one grandparent, and saw photos of only the other three plus two great grandparents.

My other ancestors could have been literally anyone from anywhere.

I think that you're being deliberately obtuse.