D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

well, if Geronimo is someone on our island, then it wouldnt matter if we traded to Liz. And if this, Geronimo, was on the other continent, they wouldnt dare risk their boats through such deep water, so we would be safe.:)

IOW, lets wait for more team member's opinion.:D
 
Ansar_the_King said:
well, if Geronimo is someone on our island, then it wouldnt matter if we traded to Liz. And if this, Geronimo, was on the other continent, they wouldnt dare risk their boats through such deep water, so we would be safe.:)

IOW, lets wait for more team member's opinion.:D

I wasn't being facetious - I just have a real mental block with the name, and Geronimo is one of the few famous Amerindian leaders that I recall.
 
Wow, that was very smart, Bucephalus. I never actually read whatever that idiot says. Anyway, it was mentioned that we take as much gold as possible from Lizzie. Either by giving her literature for her researching faster, or currency, so that we can sell her the MA techs sooner. We may as well bleed her economy to death for our advantage just to make our first 20 turns in Republic much easier.

So trade currency! More markets for her means more money for us!
 
Bucephalus said:
OK, before I run with this I need some clarification on Tech research. As I understand it, it is proposed that we run zero research. Do we have a consensus on this, or have I totally misunderstood the discussion?
I think you misunderstood the discussion. We still need to do our own research, so I would not adjust the sliders any.

We do need some extra gold for our first turns of Republic. This is why we want to sell something to England; they have as much gold as we do. And they are willing to spend it to make themselves smarter.

Someone suggests buy Construction from Egypt, see what other new techs they have, sell something to England and then redirect our research.

On the trade with Liz, will she also add her current cash reserve to that trade?
 
What happens when you take literature off the table with Lizzie?
 
Then I would trade her Currency and hold Literature as trade bait for an MA tech later.
 
Before I start I should point out that these turns were played late (my time) on Sunday night. If I was going to give them the time & consideration that you guys deserve, then Sunday was my last chance for a few days. Unfortunately, although I sought & heeded as much advice as I could, TGOM's last post came 6 hours too late for me to act upon it.

OK, my first action was to sell both Lit. & Currency to Liz for 41gpt. I had several reasons for believing this to be the best course of action.

1) The Iroquois. We are so weak (and set to become weaker once we start disbanding warriors) that surely we are overdue an offer to contribute to their favourite charity; once either tech was in the public domain it would be worthless to Lizzie.

2) The English. Since we are several techs behind the Vikings, any tech brokering will involve England buying; any boost to their economy (libraries/marketplaces) therefore is future money in our pockets.

3) The post-anarchy economic slump. Since there is strong evidence that all the remaining civs are in contact (more of that shortly) I thought it desirable to hit the ground running as we simultaneously became a Republic, and entered the MA., thus avoiding getting too far behind in techs.
My reasoning re. the other civs is thus: There was circumstantial evidence to suggest that Ragnor & Cleo were at war. Firstly, Stockholm appears on the Egyptian city list; Secondly, Ragnor has MI so he has probably has had Feudalism for a few turns, long enough at least to build a MI from scratch since the AI doesn't often upgrade. Yet Cleo doesn't have it; surely it's unlikely for them not to trade for it? So I believed them to be at war. Yet they are several techs in front. How? Neither civ is what you would call an economic powerhouse, and I don't think it likely that they could have outresearched us particularly if they are at war, so it stands to reason that they must be in contact with other civs.
Anyway, that is my justification for taking the deal. History (And TGOM) will be my judge.

turn 1 - 50AD) Anarchy ends, and I chose Republic. For one turn only I can run the science slider at 0% - we need 1 beaker only for Construction, and a scientist does the job. We temporarily make +71 gpt. One or two workers finish whatever tasks they were previously assigned, and they are moved to adjacent squares to continue similar upgrading of the environment. I decide not to disband the warriors where they currently reside as the shields can be more productively used elsewhere, so I send them to Orleons to contribute towards the proposed Marketplace.

2 - 70AD) We learn Consruction. I set our sights on Monotheism, which is scheduled in 12 at 90%; it will come down as the population begins to rise and we disband some warriors. Luxury tax is 10%. Paris is building Library. I change a number of Settler builds to commercial buildings; if we're not going to settle the Islands we have no immediate need for core cities building settlers. Warior Yellow - doing a little border walking between Ragnor & Cleo - confirms my suspicions, they are at war.

3 - 90AD) warriors disband in to Orleons. 2 workers are directed to fell forests in Orleons. The unit support cash that we saved means we now have Monotheism in 8 turns. Iroquois are now polite, they have Lit & Currency.

4 - 110AD) Forest chop in Orleons reveals BG. Workers set to mine & road.

5 - 130AD) Cleo now has Feudalism but neither she nor Ragnor wish to sell.

6 - 150AD) Chartres completes Library. Mono in 5.

7 - 170AD) Forbidden Palace finished in Lyons. Lyons to build library.

8 - 190AD) Ragnor simultaneously(!) learns Engineering & Monotheism. Forest chop at Orleons reveals another BG.

9 - 210AD) Bescanon builds library. Westward Ho (busily mapping the coast of Scandinavia) sees red border. Cleo learns Monotheism. Who is she dealing with?
10 - 230AD) It's the Inca, and disappointingly they have just 5 cities, and are backward in tech. We learn Monotheism, Theology in 8 at 90%. 11+ gpt. 10% luxury tax.

Summary: We are behind Ragnor with Engineering and Monarchy. We are behind Cleo with Monarchy. We have Monotheism and Construction over Iro. and Lizzie. Our military is worryingly weak. Our economy though is booming. Orleons is shaping up to be potentially our best city.

I'll post pics and a save soon.


France
France.JPG



Egypt & Scandinavia

Egypt_and_Scandinavia.JPG
 
Judging by the second picture, I assume Egypt and Scandinavia are at war? :)

About the Engineering and Monotheism, Ragnar must have traded for one of them the same turn he learned one of them.:scan:

A nice turnset except for the Literature trade.:gold:

EDIT: why is Toulouse not growing? :hmm:
 
Just took a quick look at the save. One mistake and one comment.

The mistake is not yours, it is mine. Amiens needs to be abandoned to a settler and either put on the coast or boated someplace else. This was in the discussion prior to my turns. I forgot to include them in the handoff notes. Not your mistake, but it something that needs to be corrected.

The comment is just this: do we have enough workers? The accepted general rule of thumb is at least one worker per city. We have 19 cities and 14 workers. Our workers are industrious, so maybe we are all right.

I see two size 2 cities making galleys and just wonder out loud if making workers would be better.
 
Good catch on the workers, but Paris can spit out a worker pretty quick and not lose any population while doing it. That will more than get us up to speed on worker count and extras can be added to Orleans and Rheim for example or even tot he towns further north.

Any time you can come out of Anarchy into a brand new Republic and run 90% research into the early MA at positive cash there are a lot of things done right but the one that stands out is the trading with the Virgin Queen. That really was the keystone and had you followed my suggestion it would not have been available.

There are at least two unknowns in the fog, so that explains why the two warmongers are happily teching away over there. And Hiawatha's acquisition of both Currency and Literature is an excellent example of the AI's dealing trading junk bonds for tech rather than cold hard cash. Nothing you can do about it, just something to be aware and the moral of the story is "Sell to one sell to all who know him, and then sell to the rest who know one or the others"

Can somebody tell me why we are beelining the upper part of the tech tree?
 
If you are being critical in a bad way, it is because we don't want war and we don't want extra unit costs from building the troops from the bottom of the tech tree.

If you are happy with the decision, then it is clearly because we want universities from Education. And a chance to build both Cop's and Newton's ASAP.

But we need to research feudalism (It's required, right?). I don't know why, but the AI always overvalues governments so much that maybe we won't be able to trade for it over researching it. But better later than now, I guess.

Hedging is fun!
 
Another reason is that the AI tends to research the lower tech tree first, Thus giving us a monopoly on the upper branch of techs.

*Edit*

Roster

Trainer:
TGOM

Trainees
D'Artagnan59
Tribute
Conquerdude
CommandoBob
Bucephalus - Just Played
Chuchui Husky - Up
AnsarTheKing - On Deck
Bahzell
 
Bede said:
Can somebody tell me why we are beelining the upper part of the tech tree?
If I were to guess it would be to get something advanced, like Education/Astronomy, to trade for Engineering and maybe, just maybe, Feudalism. Feudalism is a government tech that we don't want, since we are happy in republic. But it is an early required tech for this era. AIs will put a high price on it and make it a priority to research. If all the AIs learn it, we can buy it with one tech and some gold, and still have a tech in reserve (maybe).

I am not sure I would have done this, though. I tend to focus on which tech can best help me next, so I would have gone for Engineering. No more stopping after crossing a river. I would have then tried to trade Engineering for Monotheism and I would have expected to research Feudalism just to get it out of the way.

If we have a war planned in the near future (next 30 turns or so) we should learn the bottom half to get Metallurgy and Military Tradition. If we are playing a defensive game, then we learn the top half to get the geek-helpers and geek wonders.
 
Bede said:
Can somebody tell me why we are beelining the upper part of the tech tree?

In the discussions we had of late, it was indicated that certain techs were desirable as monopolies (Democracy, Navigation spring to mind), and these techs are on the upper tier. I also figured that Ragnor ,at least, will be researching Invention; it gives his UU.
Furthermore, an early Space launch indicates a need for universities.

@CB. Re. Feudalism: available in 6 turns at current rates of research.
 
Ansar_the_King said:
About the Engineering and Monotheism, Ragnar must have traded for one of them the same turn he learned one of them

Yes, I mentioned this only to add weight to my assertion that they are in contact with the other civs.
 
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