D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

[Bucephalus]

Pre Turn:

mm the Empire, lower Sci slider, gain 200gpt.
Change all our core builds; we're busy pumping out military that we don't need, while most still lack a bank, never mind a Stock Exchange;

Sell Refining to Inca for Spices, 32gpt, WM and loose change. Disappointingly, I can't quite get away with dropping the lux slider.
Give Abe 45gpt for dyes; now I can adjust the slider down, net gain of 114 gpt.
3 Rifles upgraded in Little France.
Really don't know what to do with London; it's a real White Elephant. It, and Nottingham, are real hostages to fortune, though Nottingham has Iron. I don't think we need it now, but it may be tradeable. Turn Notts citizens to taxmen while they starve. London to Taxmen.
Disband assorted Pikes, Frigates etc.
No disrespect, D'art, but that was 367gpt going begging.
Put a line of units accross narrow strip of land near Bordeaux; I don't trust Hia with a ROP. Reinforce border cities with Infantry currently guarding our core.

Enter:

IBT: Iroquois capture Newcastle.

1400 AD:

ROP with Iroquois due to expire in two turns; withdraw arty and Infantry back to France. Decide to gift London to Abe, since we don't need it; two reasons, Abe owes us us lots of gpt, and is currently annoyed. And secondly, it's a nice tempting target for Hiawatha. Abe now Polite.
Upgrade some Galleons to transports.

IBT: Nada.

1405 AD:

Troops embark for Oxford, England's last (island) city.
Banks, S.Ex's built; S.Ex's, Police Stations commisioned.

IBT: MPP with Hia runs out. He offers another for 10gpt; I decline.

1410 AD:

Learn Mass Production; begin MT (4).

IBT: Nada.

1415:

A few worker turns to balance out wasted food near Rouen.
Deal with Hia ends. Big drop in gpt.

IBT: Nada.

1420:

Troops disembark at Oxford. Begin Palace pre-build in Lyon, for SETI.

IBT: Nada.

1425 AD:

Capture Oxford, England destroyed.

IBT: Nada.

1430 AD:

Enter Modern Age. Begin research at 100% for Computers.
Time to trade I think, our GA is about to end, and we can get top dollar for Combustion, there's plenty of money about.
Hia gives 310 gpt for Combustion; Abe gives 195 gpt for Combustion and Wines;
Wang Kong gives Espionage and Gems for Combustion + 2gpt.

IBT: Nada.

1435 AD:

Nothing happened, not even a worker turn is left, except on Littler France.

IBT: Nada:

1440 AD:

Our GA ends.
In the North, our cultural boundaries push back the Iroquois'; at last, we have Worker jobs to do.
The first Tanks roll off the production line.

IBT: Nada.

1445 AD:

And so it ends, a truly uneventful turnset. We are well ahead in tech, and we are awash with money, 90% Science and still making 385gpt. I've begun researching Computers, for SETI (Pre-build in Lyon, it's a given), and for the boost our research will get from research labs; we're going to have to do all our own research from here on in. Paris is building Wall St., and Orleans the Intelligence Agency.
Militarily, if we want to hit anybody, now is the window of opportunity, as we're the only Civ with Tanks; however, unless Uranium or Aluminium present a problem, I see no need.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/38078/Dart_Buce_1445_AD.SAV

 

[CommandoBob]

I have a proposal:

We hire two healthy people to fight with us.

No, not this close to the end. Even with just three of us, we might only get two more turnsets each from this point. We have a limited number of techs to research and only a few more builds to be made.

 

[CommandoBob]

Militarily, if we want to hit anybody, now is the window of opportunity, as we're the only Civ with Tanks; however, unless Uranium or Aluminium present a problem, I see no need.

We don't need to beat anybody up but we do need to be strong. Let's smart our way to the stars, if the AIs will let us.

Where do we want to build the Apollo Program?

 

[Tribute]

At this point any high production city. Preferably, I would choose the one with the second highest shield output. The highest would build the UN to keep it away from the other AI. Nobody can win that way if you control it. Then, just build parts as you can. Try to be as efficient as possible though. Like research the farthest tech with the longest to build parts.

 

[Tribute]

At this point any high production city. Preferably, I would choose the one with the second highest shield output. The highest would build the UN to keep it away from the other AI. Nobody can win that way if you control it. Then, just build parts as you can. Try to be as efficient as possible though. Like research the farthest tech with the longest to build parts.

 

[Bede]

Nice job picking up all those gold coins, but I would have kept the navy and the obsoletes and used the cash pile to upgrade. We may have use of them, or need, when the core is occupied with other things.

Also, banks and stock exchanges can be a net drag on the economy unless you reduce the science allocation enough to free up 20-30% commerce, but doing that will have an adverse effect on all those science multiplying buildings we have and will have with the research labs. There are some things you can do with scientists in corrupt towns to allow for that kind of budgeting reduction, but it will reduce the total science output and the tech needed for space are so expensive that even a 5% reduction in output (slider down 10% and the 5% percent regained with scientists) will be meaningful in terms of beakers foregone. The allocations are not "granular" enough to allow the kind of tuning needed and the truncating calculations take care of the rest. You can fine tune using the 3 beaker scientist but it's still a pretty blunt weapon.

I'll take the save and do some fiddling just to show you what I mean, but I think CommandoBob has the con, so steer us toward Apollo, CB!

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice job picking up all those gold coins, but I would have kept the navy and the obsoletes and used the cash pile to upgrade. We may have use of them, or need, when the core is occupied with other things.

Are Frigates upgradable?

 

[Bucephalus]

Also, banks and stock exchanges can be a net drag on the economy unless you reduce the science allocation enough to free up 20-30% commerce, but doing that will have an adverse effect on all those science multiplying buildings we have and will have with the research labs. There are some things you can do with scientists in corrupt towns to allow for that kind of budgeting reduction, but it will reduce the total science output and the tech needed for space are so expensive that even a 5% reduction in output (slider down 10% and the 5% percent regained with scientists) will be meaningful in terms of beakers foregone. The allocations are not "granular" enough to allow the kind of tuning needed and the truncating calculations take care of the rest. You can fine tune using the 3 beaker scientist but it's still a pretty blunt weapon.

I'll take the save and do some fiddling just to show you what I mean, but I think CommandoBob has the con, so steer us toward Apollo, CB!

Thanks, Bede, that would be useful; but do you not have to add the benefits of Wall St. in to the equation?

 

[Bede]

Wall Street has a cap of 50g per turn on the treasury IIRC, so even with the giant cash hoard we have it just may not be worth it, as 5 Stock Exchanges and the Exchange cost a ton of shields. You can get almost the same return from 25 tax collectors in corrupt towns, or if you are looking for beakers it's more like seventeen. And the 50g in Wall Street money does not get multiplied through the science buildings.

But as I said I'll take it through the calculator but it won't be tonight.

 

[Bede]

I took a second rank town and rushed a Stock Exchange just so you guys can see the result. I chose a second rank town because it illustrates the impact of some corruption.

Before the SE at 100% science

15% corruption
52 gross commerce
44 net beakers
0 tax revenue

After the SE at 100% science - no changes in citizen assignments

Effects at different allocations

10% science

53 gross commerce
40 beakers
5 tax

In effect we lose 4 beakers and pick up 5 coins. Not enough to have an impact on the overall slider allocations.

20% science

54 gross commerce
36 beakers
10 tax

Lose another 4 beakers and pick up another 5 coins, Still not enough.

30% science

55 gross commerce
30 beakers
17 tax

Lose six beakers and a turn of research but pick up seven coins

What I have just demonstrated here is that in a science based game with budget allocations over 60% the net gain from spending 200 shields on a Stack Exchange is at best 11 coins per shield to the treasury. And you lose beakers almost as fast as gain coins. You can pick up those 11 coins with tax collectors in more corrupt towns pretty easily and can spend the shields on something more useful. Even adding in the net 50g from Wall Street will not alter these relationships much. You can try to regain lost beakers with scientists.

Not to mention the cost of the improvements if you don't have Smith's Trading. 1g for the bank and 2g for the Exchange.

That said there are times when the projects make sense, if you are playing to a different victory at a higher level and you need the commerce just to stay even by buying or stealing technologies. It all depends on the game and your position in it.

It is a common misconception that tax revenue derived from commerce multiplying buildings contributes to the research budget. It does not. It does contribute to empire wide expenses, like troop maintenance and offsetting overall corruption losses, allowing you to allocate more to science, but that effect is indirect.

 

[Bucephalus]

Thanks, Bede. Good point, well made.

What would you build instead if we have enough Military, and there are no structures to be built? Wealth?

 

[Bede]

I never have enough military , but at this stage wealth is a reasonable choice.

 

[CommandoBob]

I'll take the save and do some fiddling just to show you what I mean, but I think CommandoBob has the con, so steer us toward Apollo, CB!

Plan to get to the game this weekend.

 

[CommandoBob]

Got wrapped up in RL and SGOTM 11 turns. It will be a couple of days before I can get back to this.

A skip won't hurt my feelings.

 

[Bede]

So I'll take another turn in the barrel. Expect to hear back by Thursday.

 

[Bucephalus]

So I'll take another turn in the barrel. Expect to hear back by Thursday.

Any progress, Bede?

 

[Bede]

Got delayed by high winds and turbulence (unexpected project), it's on for tonight.

 

[Bede]

I'm putting up the save so you guys can look and try to figure out what I'm up to - specifically the troop transports on the far side of the water and the research path I have chosen. And why I am building a Commercial Dock everywhere we have water access - or at least everywhere it will do us any good.

I will try and post a tutorial on some things Sunday, nothing earth shattering, just some small object lessons in what goes where and why.

Looks like D'Artagnan is up but let's have some discussion on the points I raised above first. And since he may have some critical decisions to make in his turns let's talk about what those may be before he plays.

 

[Bucephalus]

There is only one thing that you can be doing. Since we have all necessary current resources, that small task force is clearly in place in case we don't have access to Uranium (hence the research path). If I'm right, what puzzles me is that there is no Settler aboard those transports.

Also, in light of your previous comments on building Stock Exchanges, I'm wondering why you are building one in Grenoble.

 

[Bucephalus]

BTW, D'art appears to MIA; he's 'up' in at least two other SG's, and is not responding.