D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

[Bede]

There is only one thing that you can be doing. Since we have all necessary current resources, that small task force is clearly in place in case we don't have access to Uranium (hence the research path). If I'm right, what puzzles me is that there is no Settler aboard those transports.

Also, in light of your previous comments on building Stock Exchanges, I'm wondering why you are building one in Grenoble.

Two good questions and you got it in one.

To answer the first: strategically speaking it is six turns before I know where the resource might be, and I can put a settler on a boat and on the ground by the time the landing is secure, the real answer is I forgot, so good catch by the Greek Stallion.

To answer the second: I missed that one. The others in the queue were converted to Commercial Docks and/or boats.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

This is the only one I can cover 'til December.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

You trying to declare war on America, Korea, Egypt, Inca, or Vikings?

 

[Bucephalus]

You trying to declare war on America, Korea, Egypt, Inca, or Vikings?

None of the above; what I suggest is that you play until Fission is researched, then report back to us on the Uranium situation. If we have it, there will be no reason to declare on anybody; if we don't, we will need to evaluate the options.

 

[Bucephalus]

To elaborate, what TGOM has done is to prepare a small invasion force, in case we need to fight someone for Uranium; if we don't have it, it would be really handy if you could post a save before continuing. There are likely to be several sources, and we need to decide which is most practical to get. Once we have decided that, the next player (Me?) will want you to make certain preparations regarding troop movements etc. BTW, we need a Settler and a Worker to be added to that task force, so try to make that happen.

 

[Bucephalus]

Any progress, D'art?

 

[D'Artagnan59]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/86030/D_Artagnan_of_the_French_1525_AD.SAV

I lost the log. Basically, we have Uranium.

 

[Bucephalus]

http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/86030/D_Artagnan_of_the_French_1525_AD.SAV

I lost the log. Basically, we have Uranium.

Ok. Is there anything else we should know?

@ CB: Are you up for this?

 

[Bede]

I have been remiss in my professorial duty here. Apologies to all.

I am going to offer another object lesson in what to build where, especially now that we are in the post-Industrial era and have access to all the available specialists. In cities outside the core specialists are often the most powerful generators of either commerce or beakers or shields. As mu friend scoutsout pointed out to me many moons ago in another one of those "ah-ha" ephiphnay moments specialists depend on the one resource which is never lost to corruption or waste - food - and their output whether beakers, or commerce or shields is never wasted or corrupted.

From that simple insight developed one of the more powerful strategies in C3C - the creation of specialists farms where you water everything flat, railroad it, build a granary, an aqueduct, and maybe a building for happiness generation and that is all. Up to half the population, and in especially blessed towns with lots of food resources, even more, can then be dedicated specialists - usually tax collectors or scientists. These specialists will generate more output with fewer shields invested than any other choice.

Strasbourg in the north is an excellent example.

Without a university and employing beakerheads the city generates 33 beakers on a commerce output of only 12 net commerce after corruption. That is eighteen from the six scientists plus 15 from the net commerce multiplied by the library.

By employing cops instead of scientists the beaker output is only 21 as the cops only pick up one coin each which is then given the library multiplier. The town's raw output is only 17 commerce which multiplies up to a net of 21 after corruption calculations and truncation.

If I build the university I get 28 beakers if I use cops

or 34 if I use scientists.

So I just spent 200 shields to net 1 beaker. Not a good ratio when the nation is producing >1000 beakers every turn.

Now if I worked additional commerce generating fields I may gain more beakers but then I would need to spend shields keeping all those farm laborers happy, and would not get to the same output.

Those two hundred shields would perhaps have been better spent on military production, maybe.

These are the type of calculations to do when looking at building projects, especially when you have the scientist/cop/CE combo available. In a Republic government each roaded/worked field generates two coins per turn. In a town like Strasbourg, each second coin is lost to corruption until you reach the corruption percentage for that town. So you net one coin for each working citizen at the margin. A university and library combo applied to that one coin nets about .5 beaker at those corruption levels.

So would I throw shields at a university in a city like Strasbourg? No, I would take those 200 shields and use them for short rushing military, like artillery.

 

[Bucephalus]

Thanks, Bede; most illuminating.

Do you get the feeling that we're the only ones left with an interest in this game?

 

[CommandoBob]

Do you get the feeling that we're the only ones left with an interest in this game?

Bite your tongue!
(The following is to explain. It is not a rant. It looks like one but it is not. It is just so hard to convey 'tone' in text.)

Across the pond this is a big family weekend. I'm still interested and plan to play my turns. Today we're having friends over (family has gone) to play 'Settlers of Catan', so I doubt that I'll have a chance to play any turns this evening.

I haven't looked at the game, not even downloaded the save, but it seems our borders are fairly stable, we have a strong enough military to make the AI leave us alone and all we want to do is research and build SS stuff (Apollo and the parts).

I'll try to get to this on Saturday.

I've only 'quit' one SG, and that was because when I installed C3C Vanilla would not work. I've considered bumping that thread (I was the last player) and finish it in C3C, but not yet; too many other SGs.

 

[Bucephalus]

No worries, CB. Glad you're still with us.

To be honest, this game can be won on 'cruise control' from now on. We've everything we need for Space, and a big tech lead; and as you pointed out, no one is strong enough to hurt us.

 

[CommandoBob]

Note - I meant to play this past weekend but sickness, mine and others, delayed that playing. I played solo Civ, no SGs.

Turnset 27 1525 AD

1525 AD 6824 gold +637 gpt
Space Flight 7 turns (0.10.0)

City builds:
City (size) notes

1. Paris (12), zero growth, civil defense in 3.
2. Orleans (12), zero growth, UN in 12.
3. Nottingham (5), grows in 1, courthouse in 31.
4. Lyons (18), grows in 7, civil defense in 2.
5. Rheims (12), grows in 9999, civil defense in 3.
6. Tours (12), zero growth, civil defense in 2.
7. Marseilles (10), zero growth, vCarrier in 1.
8. Chartres (12), grows in 9999, vCrusier in 17.
9. Avignon (12), zero growth, vCruiser in 2.
10. Besancon (11), grows in 11, vBattleship in 5.
11. Rouen (10), grows in 11, vCruiser in 18.
12. Grenoble (12), zero growth, vCruiser in 10.
13. Dijon (11), grows in 8, vBattleship in 6.
14. Rennes (13), grows in 28, airport in 5.
15. Cherbourg (12), grows in 9999, university in 35.
16. Toulouse (12), grows in 9999, rBomber in 3.
17. Bayonne (12), grows in 9999, vCruiser in 13.
18. Oxford (1), grows in 5, harbor in 56.
19. Planchet (12), grows in 5, university in 78.
20. Mousqueton (12), grows in 5, vDestroyer in 52.
21. Liverpool (6), grows in 9999, aqueduct in 6.
22. Bordeaux (8), grows in 4, commerical dock in 145.
23. Dover (6), grows in 5, aqueduct in 85.
24. Amiens (12), grows in 99999, police station in 16.
25. Poiters (9), grows in 12, university in 5.
26. Corte (2), grows in 5, mobile SAM in 9.
27. Strasbourg (12), grows in 9999, rBomber in 82.
28. Sartene (2), zero growth, harbor in 46.
29. Leeds (6), grows in 9999, aqueduct in 14.
30. Brest (12), grows in 9999, vCruiser in 34.
31. Ajaccio (6), zero growth, library in 10.
32. Carne (9), grows in 4, rBomber in 28.

City Builds by Group:
Build [# being built](where being built)

• Civil Defense [3] (Paris, Lyons, Rheims, Tours)
• United Nations [1] (Orleans)
• Courthouse [1] (Nottingham)
• vCarrier [1] (Marseilles)
• vCruiser [6] (Chartres, Avignon, Rouen, Grenoble, Bayonne and Brest)
• vBattleship [2] (Besancon and Dijon)
• Airport [1] (Rennes)
• University [3] (Cherbourg, Planchet and Poitiers)
• rBomber [3] (Toulouse, Strasbourg and Carne)
• Temple [1] (Oxford)
• vDestroyer [1] (Mousqueton)
• Aqueduct [3] (Liverpool, Dover and Leeds)
• Commerical Dock [1] (Bordeaux)
• Police Station [1] (Ameins)
• rMobile SAM [1] (Corte)
• Harbor [1] (Sartene)
• Library [1] (Ajaccio)

French Military

• 17 Workers
• 04 Rifleman
• 13 Cavalry
• 04 Infantry
• 09 Tank
• 37 Mech Infantry
• 34 Artillery
• 12 Transport
• 01 Carrier
• 02 Destroyer
• 03 Battleships
• 05 Bombers
• 03 Musketeers
• 18 Guerilla
• 02 Cruiser
• 09 Flak

Total Units: 173; Allowed Units: 82; Support cost: 182 gpt.
15 slaves

French vs.

• Iroquois - strong
• Egypt - strong
• Inca - strong
• Korea - strong
• America - strong
• Vikings - strong

Resources:

• Strategic
  • 01 Uranium
  • 01 Aluminum
  • 02 Rubber
  • 01 Oil
  • 01 Coal
  • 01 Saltpeter
  • 01 Iron
  • 01 Horses
• Luxury
  • 02 Wines
  • 01 Ivory
  • 02 Silks

Wonder Races

• United Nations - Orleans (France)
• United Nations - P'yongyang (Korea)

Spend 223 gold to investigate P'yongyang.

P'yongyang 1525 AD

P'yongyang builds the United Nations in 58 turns. They just started their build this turn.

Woke up slaves to clean up pollution near Orleans.

What ???
Save was at the start of a turn, not the end!!!!

Naval units on auto-move (this turn only).


Items for discussion
Our current surplus is +637 gpt.
We traded something to the Iroquois for 310 gpt. This is the last turn (1525 AD).
We sold wines to America for 195 gpt. This is the last turn (1525 AD).

If we do not renew these deals, we go from +637 to +132 gpt. Which still allows us to research at 100%.
In seven turns we have two more deals ready to expire.
Coal to the Iroquois (244 gpt) and some tech to Korea (97 gpt). This will force us to learn at less than 100% if we have no new deals.

Currently, all we can sell is Rocketry or Computers to the Iroquois (in the next two turns).
Korea has over 1300 gold on hand this turn.

What do we think of selling these techs around?

What is our next tech after Space Flight? Or should we be researching something else? This is our first turn on Space Flight, so if we want to change now is the time.

Do we have an order in which we plan to research the Space Techs?

We have only five (5) cities that produce more than 40 spt:
Lyons (62)
Orleans (56)
Paris (52)
Rheims (50)
Tours (48)

Seems good to switch one of these to palace as a pre-build for Apollo and another to Manhattan Project as a pre-build to SpaceShipPart.

Did we already have our Golden Age?

Do we need more military? And universities in non-core towns?

Don't want to play in a rush.

And the save is >>HERE<<.

 

[Bucephalus]

Items for discussion
Our current surplus is +637 gpt.
We traded something to the Iroquois for 310 gpt. This is the last turn (1525 AD).
We sold wines to America for 195 gpt. This is the last turn (1525 AD).

If we do not renew these deals, we go from +637 to +132 gpt. Which still allows us to research at 100&#37;.
In seven turns we have two more deals ready to expire.
Coal to the Iroquois (244 gpt) and some tech to Korea (97 gpt). This will force us to learn at less than 100% if we have no new deals.

Currently, all we can sell is Rocketry or Computers to the Iroquois (in the next two turns).
Korea has over 1300 gold on hand this turn.

What do we think of selling these techs around?

A thorough assessment (as usual), CB.

I would say that since we will still be able to research at 100% once these deals expire, it would only help our rivals to trade them techs. We have all the resources that we need to launch, so it boils down to a straightforward race; lets keep them backward.

What is our next tech after Space Flight? Or should we be researching something else? This is our first turn on Space Flight, so if we want to change now is the time.

A switch to Miniaturization would be my choice, with a Palace pre-build in Lyons for 'The Internet'; our research will receive a healthy boost with Research Labs in all cities.

Do we have an order in which we plan to research the Space Techs?

Well, we can't build SS parts without 'Space Flight', so I guess that would be the logical start. Beyond that, I'm not sure that it matters, though I would hate to be caught with our pants down if - when - Manhattan is built, so maybe toward Satellites is the way to go.

Did we already have our Golden Age?

It came with 'Hoovers', if memory serves.

Do we need more military?

I would think not. We have all we need for self defence, and unless we get unlucky with an exhausted source of Uranium or Aluminium, we won't need to invade anyone.

And universities in non-core towns?

You probably need to look at each case individually; will a Uni (and a maintainance-free RL) add coins to our research(?) should be the question to ask yourself. I'm a little unsure to be honest, maybe TGOM would have a different take on it.


A couple of points I would offer:

We should change all those Civil Defence builds; they are completely unnecessary.

Continue with the UN in Paris; Iroquois will begin it next turn, I think, since they've just bought 'Fission' from Korea. It's the one chance we have of losing this game.

 

[Bede]

No harm in selling any techs, they will pay so much for Modern Era techs it permanently cripples their research budget, especially if we make sure to strip everyone's pockets. Korea must have gotten their free tech and peddled it for money we should have had, so take it away from him by selling him something.

The Internet puts up Labs everywhere regardless of the University status, but in corrupt towns (>30&#37 it doesn't matter anyway as you will still get more beakers from scientists, if you use them. With the cash we have to spend on research a couple of extra beakers from the corrupt towns won't move the net amount much anyway.

 

[vmxa]

Lurker:

AFAIK the Lab will do nothing, unless you have a uni in that town. Yes the Internet will build you a free one, but it will gen no beakers without a uni.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

Is anyone home?

 

[CommandoBob]

01 1525 AD

Switch from Space Flight to Miniaturization, still 7 turns. With Miniaturization comes Internet and free Research Labs and thus faster smarts.

Lyons civil defense -> Palace (Internet prebuild), 15 turns.
Paris civil defense -> Manhattan Project (800 shields, Apollo prebuild), 16 turns.
Rheims civil defense -> airport, 4 turns.
Tours civil defense -> airport, 3 turns.
Marseilles aircraft carrier -> police station, 1 turn.
Chartres crusier -> police station, 17 turns.
Avignon cruiser -> airport, 2 turns.
Besancon battleship -> courthouse, 1 turn (4 of 36 shields corrupted)
Grenoble cruiser -> factory, 20 turns.
Dijon battleship -> police station, 5 turns (7 of 33 shields corrupted)
Cherbourg, hire two geeks, city at size 12 and zero growth.
Toulouse bomber -> airport, 11 turns.
Bayonne cruiser -> hospital, 13 turns (can work the ocean for more geeks).
Bayonne, hire two geeks, city size at 12 and zero growth.
Planceht, hire two more geeks, city size at 12 and zero growth.
Mousqueton destroyer -> hospital, 72 turns.
Mousqueton, hire two geeks, city size at 12 and zero growth.
Dover, make a fisher man from a farmer to put the city at zero growth.
Sartene, fisherman -> farmer, harbor in 46 to 23.
Rush the aqueduct in Leeds for 320 gold. Good place for a geek farm.
Brest cruiser -> police station, 34 turns.
Brest, hire three more geeks, city size at 12 and zero growth.
Carne bomber -> market, 28 turns. Needs some mines in the hills.
​

[IBT]
Marseilles police station -> airport, 5 turns.
Besancon courthouse -> police station, 5 turns (now 3 of 37 shields corrupted).
Leeds aqueduct -> library, 14 turns.

Iroquois are building the United Nations (Salamanca).
And the Manhattan Project (Niagara Falls).

02 1530 AD

Improve hills near Carne.

Sell Computers to Korea for WM, 564 gpt and 1819 of 1819 gold.
Sell Computers to Iroquois for WM, 324 gpt and 32 of 32 gold.

We've plenty of cash, so investigate the Iroquois Wonder Builders.
Salamanca (22) for 262 gold.
Niagara Falls (19) for 220 gold.

Salamanca and the United Nations 1530 AD

No problem.


Niagara Falls and the Manhattan Project 1530 AD

Could be a problem, completes in 13 turns.

Cycle through the cites, looking for more geeks.
Don't care if the Iroquois do build the Manhattan Project.
Just don't want to lose the ability to use it as a prebuild for Apollo.

Nottingham, hire two geeks, growth at zero.
Two geeks to fishermen in Avignon, beakers from the city increase from 64 to 74.
Besancon, farmboy to fisherman, beakers from 56 to 60, growth and production stay the same.
Two geeks to fishermen in Grenoble, beakers from the city increase from 70 to 76.
Four geeks to fishermen in Rennes, beakers from the city increase from 48 to 58.
Rennes airport -> police station, 4 turns.
Toulous airport -> police station, 10 turns.
Two geeks to fishermen in Bayonne, beakers from the city increase from 78 to 84.
Four geeks to fishermen in Amiens, beakers from the city increase from 46 to 52.
One geeks to coasal fishermen in Brest, beakers from the city increase from 38 to 39.

Still get Miniaturiztion in 6; had hoped to drop it to 5 turns.

We got plenty of cash, time to rush some improvements.

Price Check:
Nottingtham courthouse 240 (60 turns)
Chartres police station 376 (16 turns)
Dijon police station 328 (4 turns)
Rennes police station 288 (4 turns)
Toulose police station 276 (10 turns)
Bayonne hospital 324 (12 turns)
Amiens police station 600 (15 turns)
Sartene harbor 176 (22 turns)
Brest police staion 392 (25 turns)

For no good reason, don't want to spend more than 1000 gold in rush jobs.

Rush Bayonne's hospital (324) and Sartene's harbor (176) to be able to grow and farm.
Short rush a colosseum in Rennes for 128, then back to a police station, now in 2.
Short rush a colosseum in Dijon for 168, then back to a police station, now in 2.
Short rush a colosseum in Toulouse for 116, then back to a police station, now in 6.
Spent a little over 900 gold.

We still learn Miniaturization in 6 turns.
​

[IBT]
Vikings want to talk.
Rangar Lodbrok wants an ROP and an MPP. Uh, no.
Lincoln tells us he does not want to renew the Wines for 195 gpt.
We lost our supply of Gems.
Korea does not wish to give Gems for 2 gpt.
They want Rocketry for Gems. Nope.

Avignon airport -> barracks, 2 turns.
Bayonne hospital -> factory, 35 turns.
Sartene harbor -> library, 40 turns.

03 1535 AD

Trading time.
Korea will sell Gems for 928 gold or 52 gpt. Or Rocketry. Seems steep.
Scroll through the First French Republic. Only Rennes is an issue, other cities are Okay without Gems.
If we offer Rocketry to Korea, they counter with Gems, WM and 40 of 40 gold.
Nothing with Korea.
America has learned Amphibious Warfare.
For Wines they will pay WM, 22 gpt and 71 of 71 gold.
For Motorized Transport they will pay WM, 67 gpt and 71 of 71 gold.
Selling MT to America brings them into the Modern Age, but with no real cash flow (and no real threat).
Sell MT (Tanks) to the US and hope they introduce the Tank to their neighbors.
​

[IBT]
Tours airport -> vBomber, 3 turns.
Dijon police station -> stock exchange, 8 turns.
Rennes police station -> bank, 8 turns.

04 1540 AD

Two hills near Carne are roaded, railed and mined.
Grassland 1NE of Carne is roaded, railed and mined.

Lincoln has a worker to sell. For wines. Nope.
​

[IBT]
Rheims airport -> vBomber, 2 turns.
Pollution near Tours.
Avignon barracks -> vMechInf, 4 turns.

05 1545 AD

Pollution cleaned up, farmer reassigned.
Bordeaux has grown and gotten cranky; hiring a geek fixes that.
​

[IBT]
Hiawatha wants ROP. We need ROP to move units around. We agree.

Pollution near Besancon.
Poiters university -> harbor, 20 turns.
Corte Mobile SAM -> courthouse, 14 turns.

06 1550 AD

Pollution cleaned up.
​

[IBT]
Rheims vBomber -> TOW Inf, 3 turns.
Tours vBomber -> TOW Inf, 3 turns.
Pollution near Dijon.
Liverpool aqueduct -> library, 9 turns.

07 1555 AD

Pollution cleaned up.

Iroquois and Korea have learned Rocketry. Both have Amphibious Warfare to sell.
No one has learned Ecology.
We learn Miniaturization this IBT, and then we begin on Space Flight.
Drop science down to 30%, +1928, Mini in 1 turn.
​

[IBT]
We learn about how to make things tiny, now we learn about outer space.

Marseilles airport -> vJet, 4 turns.
Besancon police station -> granary, 2 turns.
Toulous police station -> hospital, 20 turns (5 tiles of fishing farms).

We lost our supply of coal.
We lost our supply of incense.

08 1560 AD

Up science to 100%, we learn Space Flight in 6 turns.

Iroqouis will trade coal for Minaturization, our latest tech.
We need coal to make Railroads and Ironclads.
I think we can live without the Iroquois coal. If we need it bad enough, we can take it.
We can get Incense from the Incas for Atomic Theory.
We can sell Atomic Theory to the Incas for WM, Incense and 1 of 1 gold.
We sell, not buy.

Lots of cranky people.
Buy Gems from Korea for 928 gold.
We sell Miniaturization to Korea for Amphibious Warfare (Marines), 278 gpt and 1196 of 1196 gold.
We sell Miniaturization to Iroquis for Coal and 150 gpt.

Lyons palace -> The Internet, 10 turns.
Rheims TOW Inf -> Palace (Space Ship Prebuild), 17 turns.
​

[IBT]
Pollution near Besancon.
Avignon vMechInf -> TOW Inf, 4 turns.
Pollution near Dijon.
Pollution near Rouen.

Iroquois are building the Internet in St. Regis.
Koreans are building the Internet in Namp'o.

09 1565 AD

Clean up pollution near Dijon.
Clean up pollution near Rouen.
Begin to clean up pollution near Besancon, not enough slaves, two turns.

Considered investigating St. Regis, where the Iroquois are building the Internet.
But since we switched Lyons from palace to Internet last turn, it is a non-issue.
Lyons completes the Internet in 9 turns.
​

[IBT]
Tours vTOW Inf -> vTank, 3 turns.
Besancon granary -> offshore platform, 8 turns.

10 1570 AD

Pollution near Besancon cleaned up.

Investigate Niagara Falls again (230 gold).


Niagara Falls and the Manhattan Project 1570 AD

Completes the Manhattan Project in 5 turns.
We learn Space Flight in 4 turns.
Prebuild is safe.
​

[IBT]

And the save is >>HERE<<.

 

[CommandoBob]

Nothing exciting, no wars or riots or anything like that.

Spent some time in trade analysis.

No one has learned Ecology. We can learn Nuclear Power after Space Flight and maybe trade for Ecology. I hope we can do that, gets us to the stars faster.

Prebuilds and Wonders

Wonders
Orleans - United Nations - 3 turns
Lyons - The Internet - 8 turns

Prebuilds
Paris - Manhattan Project - Apollo Program (with overrun)
Rheims - Palace - Space Ship Part

And once Orleans finishes the UN, it can begin a prebuild for a space ship part.

Just to state the obvious, we need to build eleven things to get into space: Apollo Program and the Ten Parts. We have two of the eleven in place.

We have plenty of cash to rush the Ten Parts, if needed. IIRC, the total shields needed to build all the space ship is 3200 (excluding Apollo).

 

[Bucephalus]

Nice, smooth turns, CB.

One minor quibble; I'm wondering why you bothered with Airports? Unless I have a pressing need for veteran units, I don't build them because airstrips come maintainance-free. I know that in this case we are so awash with gold that it doesn't matter, but in so many games - especially at higher levels - every coin counts.