D'Artagnan01: Low-level Training Day

[CommandoBob]

Tribute, you are hereby declared up.

Not quite.

No one is UP until the Teacher says so. Being UP implies that it is time to play, which it is not.

A training game involves a lot of discussion, since the goal is the WHY and the HOW, not the WHAT and the WHERE.

A training game is not a rushed game. Discussion and explanation take time and effort. I think we all would learn best by each of us playing the first 20 turns and then posting the logs and saves once everyone is done. Then we should evaluate them, see what went right, see what could have been improved, give kudos and wooden spoons and after all that, then decide which save to play from.

While the current turn log is sufficient for a normal SG, it is missing many important details for a successful training game. The What and Where can be determined, but the most important part of training, the Why, is not present.

 

[Bede]

There's a bit of a grey area in the rules. What if the AI comes calling with demands? Must we consult with the team before risking war with a refusal?

There is no grey area. Whatever (s)he wants (s)he gets. Or at least until the nation is a lot better developed. Get used to it, kowtowing is a way of life at Demi-god and above.

Science to 100%. Writing in 50.

Good call. Even though leaving the slider at 0 builds the bank account, setting it at 100 builds the beaker count. I will run 100% science until the bank account is empty and then turn it down to 0 if I have to. The way the math works is that 50 is the upper limit for learning a tech, but beakers still accumulate at a rate that will appear to accelerate if you leave it at 100%

3700 BC. Road done. Warrior pops GH. We have woken up three bands of Marcomanni warriors. Warrior survives one attack from Marcomanni2. Warrior: 2/3. M3 fortifies, M1 goes for worker.

Bad, bad choice. There are three meaningful events from huts at Emperor and the chances of getting the worst (yokels) is 67%. Only pop huts that are far far from home, or when planting a city and the hut will be popped by the new city boundaries. THe hut needs to be on the far side of the new town from any other native cultural boundary though, otherwise the yokel chance is still there.

3950 BC. Worker mines.

Not the best choice. The opening game is all about food and gold. I would be getting roads to those riverside wheat fields for the gold and then water to both. The most expensive build you will have in the first 100 turns is a settler and it takes more food than shields to build it.

It is only when the time comes to build the military do you need to worry about shields. So here's the first of Bede's rules of thumb: for an early space launch, road first then make other improvements. Show me the money!

3100 BC. Settler finished. Budget deficit, so science to 80%.

So where is the settler going?

And something is out of whack with the economy. The budget at size three with the riverside terrain should be gold neutral at 100% science.

What I see here is a set of opening moves that are on "automatic pilot". Little attention was paid to the actual surroundings. I know that Cracker's Bible says to improve first then road, but in this instance Cracker is wrong. We need cash flow to make the Philosophy gambit work (I assume that is where this is going) and you get that working riversides with roads.

I am going to run a shadow 20 turns and post them tonight.

 

[choxorn]

Not the best choice. The opening game is all about food and gold. I would be getting roads to those riverside wheat fields for the gold and then water to both.

I agree. Always, Always, Always road first.

So where is the settler going?

It has to be going somewhere.

 

[CommandoBob]

The way the math works is that 50 is the upper limit for learning a tech, but beakers still accumulate at a rate that will appear to accelerate if you leave it at 100%

Please explain this. If it takes 50 turns to learn a tech at 10% science and at 100% science, why is adding beakers better than adding gold?

 

[Bede]

Please explain this. If it takes 50 turns to learn a tech at 10% science and at 100% science, why is adding beakers better than adding gold?

Because at 100% the net learning time for Writing is only about 35 turns due to population growth working the appropriate improvements. At minimum, which on the opener is 20% anyway, until the second citizen is out there and working a commerce generating field, it will take the full fifty. It has to do with how commerce is converted to beakers, the effects of a growing population, and the arithmetic. That is why you can always turn the rate down from 100% to some lower value when you are two turns out, which accumulates the overrun as cash instead of wasting it.

Moving the slider up and down to get to so-called break even research will break you. It should be all or nothing at all, as a general rule. Later in the game when there are multiplier buildings in place and you have a larger population to use as specialists you can adjust the budget but in the early game anything less than 100% or more than the minimum is just wasteful.

Also in the early game, if you are trying the Philosphy gambit, you need to be very careful about buildings that cost maintenance if you don't have the economy to support it, as that -1gpt can kill your budget.

 

[Bede]

And notice that putting Paris 1E lets me irrigate the closest wheat without having to irrigate the grass first. Though that is a secondary consideration to being on the coast with fish in range.



The warrior comes in BC3700 and is fortified in town. The worker does not need protection because he will finish the watering before the borders expand and the yokels appear, and I start a curragh for exploring the coastlines, a lot safer than using warriors, faster too and I can keep the warriors handy for protection.

3650 Worker has finished watering and roading and only now heads out to road then mine the riverside bonus grass. The citizen is working the wheatfields now that they are the gold equivalent of the riverside grass.

3300 One Jute dies against our doughty warrior and the citizens go fishing to keep the food and gold coming in.

The next task after the replacement warrior is a second warrior for inland exploration, then a settler.

The worker is mining the tobacco as that is a 2gpt field with a road, but he needs to get back across the river and re-improve the wheatfield just outside Paris.

Writing is due in 22@100%, with nothing in the kitty.

The reason for the deficit in D'Artagnan's save is the overbuilding of warriors and the failure to work the high gold fields. With all those warriors running around I think the French are over the support limit and by working low commerce yeild fields they can't be paid for.

My mishandling of the barbarians (should have had a second warrior in Paris) will set us back on the land grab but that game stands a better chance of making the Philsophy gambit pay off, I think.

Where are you going to plant the second town?

 

[Bede]

Two possible settlements. The northern site gets sugar and is on a river bank; the eastern site will have gold and fish and coastline available along with forests and plains.

Note to next player: there are go-to orders in place so before pressing enter please check all units and cancel the orders. The settler in the picture is after a go-to and that is precisely the wrong way.

Remember - food and cash flow are the objectives here.

 

[scoutsout]

Please explain this. If it takes 50 turns to learn a tech at 10% science and at 100% science, why is adding beakers better than adding gold?

Beakers are gold in another form. Watch the monk. The monk is to gold as I am to... whacking stuff. Though the monk is pretty good at whacking stuff in his own right... and I've been known to find a spare shilling or three....

 

[D'Artagnan59]

In the long run, 100% is the way to go, unlike the COTM 19 Sid when I needed to gain money by researching 10%.

 

[D'Artagnan59]

I will settle Lyons SW of sugar.

 

[SimpleMonkey]

lurker's comment: Many thanks to the Grumpy One for the clear explication. I never realized the drop in turns for research after pop growth if the slider is at 100% at the start, even if it doesn't look like it's going to help. Focusing on max gold is also what makes this work, I see. Of course, there are beer and dancers to pay for, so 100% is not always viable, but I agree with not going with compromise research. Nothing or max possible.

As a strong believer in CxxC spacing, I was initially taken aback by the CxxxC suggestions here. However I see the value of wider spacing in the core, then switching to tighter as you expand. Much useful tile swapping is still available.

My Demigod and Deity games have just improved. Much thanks.

 

[Bede]

lurker's comment:
As a strong believer in CxxC spacing, I was initially taken aback by the CxxxC suggestions here. However I see the value of wider spacing in the core, then switching to tighter as you expand. Much useful tile swapping is still available.

Map layout enforced the city spacing to some extent as I wanted the sugar, the river and the coast without spending on culture.

We are in a little bit of a bind here, as we can't afford any more troops without putting the Philosophy gambit at risk and we need workers more than anything which brings me to :

Bede's second rule of thumb: worker count > military always, or worker count=# of cities at a minimum.

 

[vmxa]

I agree. Always, Always, Always road first.

It has to be going somewhere.

I would not agree with that. If you have a river and a cow on grass, you normally irrigate first, you want the food. There are cases where roads are first and that is when you have gold/beakers as the number one priority.

I think you could even make the case that you still should irrigate the cow as it leads to more gold than road first.

 

[Ansar]

Or if you have a sugar on river next to your city, you probably want to mine it since roading it wouldnt give you a commerce bonus.

EDIT: Which save is the next person playing?

 

[Bede]

I would not agree with that. If you have a river and a cow on grass, you normally irrigate first, you want the food. There are cases where roads are first and that is when you have gold/beakers as the number one priority.

I think you could even make the case that you still should irrigate the cow as it leads to more gold than road first.

Agree with the v. Always is not the word to choose for CIV. If the cow is on the river by all means irrigate first. In this game (an early space shot ca. 1300AD or so) the gold matters more, so when you have the choice between gold and food, choose gold unless it will hamper growth(gold in the hills), but don't ever neglect the food.

EDIT: Which save is the next person playing?

Tribute should take D'Artagnan's save.

@D'A, should I just grab a turn set when I want or do you want me at the end of the rotation, or not in the rotation at all?

 

[D'Artagnan59]

How about the end, TGOM?

 

[Tribute]

Okay, I'm here. That test went fairly well. Wow, you guys update quickly.

 

[Bede]

SO pick up the game, look at the save and the discussion/rants above and start asking questions if they haven't been answered already. I will be back on line about 9:00 PM but don't hesitate to play if you are comfortable doing so.

And use D'Artagnan's save!

 

[choxorn]

Okay, so ALWAYS is not the right word. But you usually want to road before you mine/irrigate. It's a Rule of thumb.

 

[Tribute]

3000BC (0)
Look around. Hnn, it's ugly. We need both workers, population growth, and warriors to defend us. I wonder where the settler is going. A solution for the military problem is found. A rather useless, military creating city of Orleans (max size 4 until forests are chopped or 3rd expansion) will be founded in the forests, but it gets sugar. Paris will be MM'ed for max food growth (in 6.) Warriors explore. 1 is sent to near Paris so that the one in Paris can knock out the barbarian.
2950BC (1)
Ooh, settler uncovers a village. Will be popped later (not by cultural boundaries). Paris is switched to a worker. Ah, well. We NEED pottery.
2900BC (2)
Irrigation. Warrior nears Paris. Other warrior will near but not go into future Orleans to fogbust.
2850BC (3)
Oh noes! The barbarian nears the worker and Paris. Our warrior attacks... and wins with 1 HP lost. 2/3 no promotion. Orleans founded set to warrior in 5, growth in 10. Writing back to 100%
2800BC (4)
Warrior arrives to heal in Paris. Other warriors move. 1 north 1 south.
2750BC (5)
Irrigation done. Start to road. (I guess roading first would have been better. Food will either excess or there will be no extra shields upon growth. Oh well.
2710BC (6)
Worker created. Another worker started. I'll keep this up until Paris is big enough for a settler. I think this one will do it. The worker goes to the other wheat. Orleans creates and starts another warrior.
2670BC (7)
Worker 1 finishes roading. It is sent north to connect Orleans maybe the connection and decrease in corruption will be worth it? Other worker roads. Reach southern border. See a wide chokepoint.
2630BC (8)
Nothing much. A barbarian attacks us in the interturn. We win with no losses and no promotion.
2590BC (9)
Worker starts to mine after finishing roading. We will have 5 fpt. Enough for a 4 turn settler factory. Especially with all our BG.
2550BC (10)
Warriors move. Worker moved to forest to connect Orleans. Try to make the warrior approaching Paris go in. At the same time, the one in will go out to pop the village. Unless the one from Orleans can get there first. Either way, Orleans should either create a barracks or a settler next. Paris can create another worker or start a settler. Contacts are required for Pottery or else our 4 settler factory time will be severely limited (self-research to it after writing).

Hmm, it turns out that I was supposed to play 20 turns, not 10. Okay. I'll listen to my own advice. Turns out a critical error was that I actually moved units on the last turn. Heehee!
2510BC (11)
Warriors move.
2470BC (12)
In a complicated move, 1 warrior exited Paris as well as the newly created worker. They split off after the second road, the warrior neared Orleans (next to the village) and the worker landed on the tobacco. Smokin'! MM Paris to growth in 4 again. Gee, I might be criticized for building workers at such a low level when I could do better at size 2.... Another worker then. (Don't hurt me)
2430BC (13)
Orleans makes a warrior->settler. Time to see what's in the village. (I know it's randomized.) We get free maps. Clearing about 1 fog. Or maybe none.... Oh well, better than nothing or barbs. Orleans warrior goes north. I think about it and switch Paris to a settler. Agh, an unreachable deadline! (20 cities by turn 80.) Remaining worker at Paris will start to build roads to future settlements, of course, they'll be useful. There's really nothing much else to improve at this point.
2390BC (14)
Explorations
2350BC (15)
Orleans connected. Roads finish. BG's about to be roaded then mined. Warrior sees village.
2310BC (16)
We got a skilled warrior. 3 warriors now explore our north. Paris is in for a huge growth turn. Growth in 4. Settler in 12. Sadly, we are on deficit.
2270BC (17)
Working and Exploring. A barb appears.
2230BC (18)
Two workers finish roading and now mine. Barb fortifies. Another appears (in a different place). This reminds me. We're on raging right? Oops.... 1 warrior sent back. Other wins 2/3.
2190BC (19)
Barb follows. We run. Hurt warrior moves towards a hill for protection (and to find the encampment) Paris is saved from rioting. Writing still in 7.
2150BC (20)
I am tempted but this is my last turn. (for the next person) Contact the whoever they are (in the north). Trade, if possible. Paris and Lyons will complete settlers in 3 turns each. Create defense and escorts for each settler. Make sure our warrior that is most south can defend the homeland.

That is all.

Save

How fun! Remember to always copy and paste the roster in! Of course, wait for the comments by our grumpy old monk, Bede!

Roster:
D'Artagnan59
Tribute-Turn Finished
Conquerdude-Up
CommandoBob-On Deck
Bucephalus
Chuchui Husky
AnsarTheKing
Bahzell