Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[Leoreth]

There is one thing i've been thinking about, not sure how doable it is, but for the sake of historical accuracy: So far we have historical holy cities in 600 AD, islam in mecca, zoroastrinism in persia, hinduism/budhism in india, etc...

But for protestantism (although the founding date could vary, as the protestant reformation lasted quite a while, there were religious wars for some time), the holy city should be Wittenberg, as it holds the All-Saints church IRL. Now I know that founding it on the exact spot would be complicated (I don't even think Lutherstadt Wittenberg is in the game), but it doesn't necesarily have to be so, it could be founded in another city, maybe in a significant city in Saxony-Anhalt (if its even in the game) or another suitable location.

I was hoping for Prussia to spawn with protestantism, (b/c, if im not mistaken, Austria is a catholic country, as was the HRE, I think it would be somewhat more historical to make prussia, besides the usual England, vikings, etc.... to be the main protestant power) but that hope was crushed by the fact that prussia would spawn in the 1700s and the protestant reformation occurred way before that.

Hopefully leoreth, being in germany, has some insight or has at least thought about this.

I think Wittenberg would be one tile west of Berlin's tile on the map (it's called Magdeburg by the city name manager). I guess it's not possible to fit it in.

That said, I consider the Reformation to be more of a dynamic event, that in real history just happened to take place in Germany. Maybe if there wasn't a Martin Luther in history, Calvinism would have gained more weight, and we would be talking about putting a holy city to Geneve. The basic situation that prompted the reformation was present in nearly all European states of that time, so ingame everyone gets a chance as well. And the civ that triggers the reformation should also get its holy city, imo.

You're right that Prussia was Protestant in contrast to Catholic Austria, and I plan to make them spawn with Protestant missionaries. They come a bit late to found Protestantism, though. But maybe Sweden could be made to found it on spawn if not already founded, just like in RFCE.

IIRC Vienna (I'm done calling it Wein) is one tile from Budapest so founding it would screw up the capitals

It's Wien in German/Austrian

But you're right, I never thought about a Roman Aquincum. Have you already experienced what happens to the city when Germany spawns, did it disappear? I'm not sure on the exact mechanic myself.

 

[The Turk]

I don't know if this is already implemented, but some civ's should be more receptive to adopting Protestantism (ie. Germany, Scandinavia, England), while other civs should have a greater chance of remaining Catholic (ie. Rome (Italy), Spain, France). But now that I think about it, this puts the Russians and Byzantines in an awkward situation, they have nothing to represent them as Orthodox Christians. Perhaps you could simulate the Great Schism in 1054 (or was it 1045??), and that would give a diplomatic hit between the Byzantine and Russian civs against their Western European comrades. This way Russia and the Byzantines would become better friends, but there would be the building of animosity between Eastern and Western Europe. I think that sounds quite good!
For example I know that RFCE does this currently.

 

[Leoreth]

There are different probabilities for turning Protestant indeed. If you play some games you'll see that England and Netherlands convert most of the times, while Spain and Portugal tend to stay Catholic.

Orthodox Christianity is filed under Catholicism currently (they have more in common in aspects like rites etc.), but a Schism event would be helpful, especially after Byzantium is in. Not only for accuracy, but also to fuel the east-west conflict in Europe.

Edit: in case you're interested, that's the chance for staying Catholic for all civs, sorted by their spawn date in unmodded RFC:

lReformationMatrix = [80, 50, 50, 50, 80, 50, 50, 95, 50, 80, 50, 10, 80, 50, 95, 75, 30, 25, 80, 10, 50, 95, 50, 50, 50, 80, 50, 50, 50, 50, 80, 50]

 

[Cethegus]

I don't know if this is already implemented, but some civ's should be more receptive to adopting Protestantism (ie. Germany, Scandinavia, England), while other civs should have a greater chance of remaining Catholic (ie. Rome (Italy), Spain, France). But now that I think about it, this puts the Russians and Byzantines in an awkward situation, they have nothing to represent them as Orthodox Christians. Perhaps you could simulate the Great Schism in 1054 (or was it 1045??), and that would give a diplomatic hit between the Byzantine and Russian civs against their Western European comrades. This way Russia and the Byzantines would become better friends, but there would be the building of animosity between Eastern and Western Europe. I think that sounds quite good!
For example I know that RFCE does this currently.

That'd do just about as much help as insisting Persia should be alienated from everyone with Shi'a Islam, just for variety's sake. Can't you pretend Catholicism dual-acts as Orthodoxy as well? Besides, is there a need to give Christianity such extra attention compared to the other religions? If it was between adopting Christianity, Islam or Buddhism as Russia, I'd go for any of the last two without looking back.

Schisms aren't needed. If religions are going to become such a bother, there's a chance everyone will become isolationist, warmonger or simply pagan as result. Also, if Christianity had been founded elsewhere and just recently spread to East European lands, would it be fair to insist Byzantium and Russia receive diplomatic penalty just because in our past, historical events happened to take a certain path? That's as unreasonable as scripting an automatic war between America and the British Empire on spawn just because it happened; undependant on is there any British colony to be seen in the East Coast.

 

[The Turk]

Although I still disagree with you. You do bring up a VERY good point! We should expand this to other religions. How about having a schism between the Persian Islam nation and the other Arab countries. Also I would have to ask you to respawn Persia in 1501 as the Safavids, and the Indians as well later on as the Mughals (with perhaps some Islamic Missionaries).

Also ever thought of having the Arabs respawn in Cairo as an Egyptian Sultanate? (Mamluks, Ayyubid, Fatimid, OR even later on with Mohammed Ali, breaking from the Ottomans?) Because as we all now Makka, or actually it should be Medina, was not the captial for very long

 

[Leoreth]

Although I still disagree with you. You do bring up a VERY good point! We should expand this to other religions. How about having a schism between the Persian Islam nation and the other Arab countries. Also I would have to ask you to respawn Persia in 1501 as the Safavids, and the Indians as well later on as the Mughals (with perhaps some Islamic Missionaries).

I think that's not what Cethegus was arguing for

A Safavid and Mughal respawn is already considered, yes.

Also ever thought of having the Arabs respawn in Cairo as an Egyptian Sultanate? (Mamluks, Ayyubid, Fatimid, OR even later on with Mohammed Ali, breaking from the Ottomans?) Because as we all now Makka, or actually it should be Medina, was not the captial for very long

I thought about a conditional Egypt respawn once; for Arabia, it would be nice to see them found Baghdad more often (or at all), then they could definitely also be made to move their capital there.

 

[Sandmonster1989]

This is just a suggestion but why not found bagdhad and have it swap to the Arabs? You are more likely to have a Baghdad if it always appears every game?? Or spawning the Arabs at baghdad with Mecca as an independant that auto founds Islam might be nice, too?

And almost every late game I play, Egypt and India will come back but I won't get a lot of other civs like Persia, Babylon, Phoenecia or the Romans. I was wondering if you could increase their chance of respawning at least (with their appropriate name changes?). Also, dynamic names for Egypt could easily demonstrate the Mamluks, Ayyubid, or Fatimids (same with Persia). Also, Cleopatra doesn't really need to exist in the Late-late game. India has a different leader head, why can't egypt?

I've never had problems with East and West Europe disliking eachother, especially as the HRE.

I'd love to see more city names in the Americas for many civs (like spain that isn't just calling an area "montana or idaho") as well as something semi accurate. France, england or spain cannot found seattle (I did it one time as one of them don't remember which). Maybe Vancouver would be a better name? There are two Vancouver cities in that area (Washington State, USA and the more popular BC, Canada). <--Just a small change I'd like to see, nothing too big and if you don't feel like changing it--that's fine...

When Prussia spawns I don't thing that the HRE should lose many cities. It could give the Prussians something to Conquer. Which reminds me-- what are you going to do about buildings and units? I think that the HRE's UU and UB should become the HRE's from regular civ while the prussians get Germany's UU and UB. I think a thousand years as the HRE is too much (I've collapsed on several occasions). Give HRE Crusader UHV and city names throughout the middle east and turkey (even though france played the biggest role in the crusades) and the Prussians UHV's from the HRE.

 

[KMRblue1027]

It's Wien in German/Austrian

But you're right, I never thought about a Roman Aquincum. Have you already experienced what happens to the city when Germany spawns, did it disappear? I'm not sure on the exact mechanic myself.

I honestly haven't played DoC since you changed the capital spawn

After spending 2 hours on a 600 A.D. American marathon auto play then only to see Europe really messed up, I was like I'm just done with this. If you added Prussia I might come back

Edit: In RFC:E/M only cities on the exact tile get deleted IIRC. I remember not being able to build Washington because of Baltimore (Which fliped to me and became my capital)

 

[Leoreth]

This is just a suggestion but why not found bagdhad and have it swap to the Arabs? You are more likely to have a Baghdad if it always appears every game?? Or spawning the Arabs at baghdad with Mecca as an independant that auto founds Islam might be nice, too?

And almost every late game I play, Egypt and India will come back but I won't get a lot of other civs like Persia, Babylon, Phoenecia or the Romans. I was wondering if you could increase their chance of respawning at least (with their appropriate name changes?). Also, dynamic names for Egypt could easily demonstrate the Mamluks, Ayyubid, or Fatimids (same with Persia). Also, Cleopatra doesn't really need to exist in the Late-late game. India has a different leader head, why can't egypt?

That's possible, but I have to be cautious to not make thing too deterministic.

Egypt doesn't have a late leaderhead because I haven't found anything viable yet.

I'd love to see more city names in the Americas for many civs (like spain that isn't just calling an area "montana or idaho") as well as something semi accurate. France, england or spain cannot found seattle (I did it one time as one of them don't remember which). Maybe Vancouver would be a better name? There are two Vancouver cities in that area (Washington State, USA and the more popular BC, Canada). <--Just a small change I'd like to see, nothing too big and if you don't feel like changing it--that's fine...

Editing city names maps is a tedious enterprise, because its so difficult to find out which entry corresponds to which tile. If you want to, you can edit the CityNameManager.py file and upload it here; I'll include it into the modmod then. That's probably the easiest way of doing this

When Prussia spawns I don't thing that the HRE should lose many cities. It could give the Prussians something to Conquer. Which reminds me-- what are you going to do about buildings and units? I think that the HRE's UU and UB should become the HRE's from regular civ while the prussians get Germany's UU and UB. I think a thousand years as the HRE is too much (I've collapsed on several occasions). Give HRE Crusader UHV and city names throughout the middle east and turkey (even though france played the biggest role in the crusades) and the Prussians UHV's from the HRE.

I agree on UU and UB. Prussia might get a slightly modified version of Germany's current UHV. Among the possibilities for the HRE is to found Protestantism or to control Rome by 1000 AD.

I honestly haven't played DoC since you changed the capital spawn

After spending 2 hours on a 600 A.D. American marathon auto play then only to see Europe really messed up, I was like I'm just done with this. If you added Prussia I might come back

Edit: In RFC:E/M only cities on the exact tile get deleted IIRC. I remember not being able to build Washington because of Baltimore (Which fliped to me and became my capital)

I agree with you, Germany is often very messed up (the AI likes to found Breslau on the wheat, in particular). Maybe I can help the AI along a bit. There are other starts where everything looks quite reasonable, though.

Thanks for the hint on the general capital spawn behaviour. I think it's just fine then: when you found Aquincum, Germany gets pushed aside a tile.

 

[The Turk]

Egypt doesn't have a late leaderhead because I haven't found anything viable yet

Just pillage SoI No I'm joking, I'm sure you could ask embyrodead for an LH or two. Also I would recommend removing Saladin from the Arab leaders, and make him an Egyptian leader instead, that would make more sense in my eyes. Also currently the LH for the Arabs is wrong, you have him with the background of the Mezquita.

 

[Leoreth]

That's because he's actually Abd ar-Rahman

 

[The Turk]

But I mean, it doesn't make sense to have him there, replace him with Harun Al-Rashid, like Embryodead has him in SoI

 

[Leoreth]

I don't mean to criticize embryodead's work (I'm a way worse graphic designer), but Harun is ugly

 

[The Turk]

I don't mean to criticize embryodead's work (I'm a way worse graphic designer), but Harun is ugly

LOOOL! Yes I know, to be fair though, its not his, if I remember correctly, someone else did it, and he just adopted it since he needed it. Perhaps then another leader? Idk, but you really need to find a replacement, ASAP (Baibars perhaps.....)

 

[Cethegus]

I'm glad someone noticed the contradiction as well. I replaced Rahman's background with Middle Eastern LH's mosque background and it looks wonderful, except for one thing. It's zoomed in a little too much. Same happened when I tried replacing Qin Shi Huang's BG with Wu Zetian's, and while it does look okay right now, it could be better. Anyway, images.

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Notice the difference? I used very simple XML work so I guess it could be improved with proper tools.

 

[Leoreth]

That background is way better!

Anyway, maybe it's even more appropriate to replace that leaderhead outright. Rahman is too tanned for an Arabian and the leopard sash isn't all that fitting either. So any suggestion which other leaderhead we could scavenge for Abu Bakr?

 

[The Turk]

@Cethegus
Great work! Looks so much better. But if you could remove his leapord print that would be even better, as it looks really weird, IMO. But I was wondering why don't you just use that LH, which you ripped the background from? I mean he looks a lot better anyways!

This guy, looks a loot better:

Spoiler :

 

[Cethegus]

@Cethegus
Great work! Looks so much better. But if you could remove his leapord print that would be even better, as it looks really weird, IMO. But I was wondering why don't you just use that LH, which you ripped the background from? I mean he looks a lot better anyways!

This guy, looks a loot better:

Spoiler :

Thanks. I haven't studied graphic programs so I can't just add or remove anything but some very simple parts. Most of the time it's just guessing which part has a desired effect.

And this is personally just me, but... that guy reminds me too much of Iznogoud. He's definitely someone I'd use for an advisor, but a downright leader? It wouldn't feel right, but that's just me. Then again he might fit for his personality...

 

[Leoreth]

My knowledge on medieval Arabia is limited, but you seem to know a lot about that era The Turk: does that leaderhead fit historically as an Abu Bakr stand in? Face, facial hair, clothes? If we're out to get accuracy, we should do it right

Edit: the more I think of it, some representation of Harun al-Rashid would be even better ...

Edit2: what about the LHs embryodead used for the Ghorids and Oman in SoI? Both at least "feel" fitting as Abu Bakr.

 

[KMRblue1027]

I agree with you, Germany is often very messed up (the AI likes to found Breslau on the wheat, in particular). Maybe I can help the AI along a bit. There are other starts where everything looks quite reasonable, though.

Thanks for the hint on the general capital spawn behaviour. I think it's just fine then: when you found Aquincum, Germany gets pushed aside a tile.

I can agree with this then Germany practically becomes Hungry which I am 25% Hungarian