Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[fireclaw722]

Thoughts for Italy:
UP:
Power of Italian Renaissance-Italian Cities(core) produce more commerce and production on average
-or-
Power of Unification-Conquering Independents in Yellow/Orange/Red areas don't count towards negative stability
UHV(s):
-Control(or vassalize) Greece, North Africa, Ethiopia(the not-achieved one) in 1950
-Be first to discover Fascism and Radio
-Control at least 2(maybe it should be more though) Corprate Headquarters in 2000


EDIT: On a different note, Leoreth, did you make it so that the Turks don't like Constantinoplis...

 

[The Turk]

Thoughts for Italy:
UP:
Power of Italian Renaissance-Italian Cities(core) produce more commerce and production on average
-or-
Power of Unification-Conquering Independents in Yellow/Orange/Red areas don't count towards negative stability
UHV(s):
-Control(or vassalize) Greece, North Africa, Ethiopia(the not-achieved one) in 1950
-Be first to discover Fascism and Radio
-Control at least 2(maybe it should be more though) Corprate Headquarters in 2000

As for the UHV's; I nominate the following:
- Don't lose a city until 1940
- Be the first to discover Fascism and Radio
- Control 3 cities in North Africa (West of Egypt), 2 cities in Ethiopia, 1 city in Sardinia, 1 city on the Adriatic Coast

 

[rob85]

I finally did my tests. The results (of course it's 600AD marathon):
The only broken civs are Spain and Aztecs (don't know about America and the Netherlands, it takes too long with my computer). For Spain, the catapult in the South Pole is just an additonal unit, I can continue after autoplay and get normal units in Iberia.
For the Aztecs, I can't continue and get only the catapult in the South Pole.
As far as I can see, your modmod doesn't like Native Americans

 

[Leoreth]

How do respawns work exactly?

Are they triggered if the cities in the area belong to an unstable civ? Or can it happen even if the civ is stable? Any other details concerning their mechanisms?

I thought Italy spawned around 1860?

As you already discovered, respawns are tied to a specific date. They also require the civilization that respawns to be dead at that point (quite obviously), so should Rome somehow survive until 1861, there will be no Italy.
They are meant to behave just as every other spawning civ, just that they don't get a settler at start (as their regions tend to be full already). However, there are several mechanics missing at the moment - for example, you can't refuse to give up your cities once Italy appears on your soil.

And as already said, they spawn in 1861, and I'm very sure I never released a version in which they appear in 760. They only do in some of the screens I posted because I wanted them to spawn right after France to avoid long loading times.

In historical terms, there was no Renaissance Italy other than a bunch of feuding city states that only shared Italian language and culture. Only Venice and Milan were powerful enough to be of international importance, and I think even they would be too small to warrant a civ.
Modern Italy on the other hand was formed in 1861, after the remaining states on the Italian peninsula decided to unify. That was the first time history saw the peninsula unified since Roman rule - in the Renaissance and after, it was merely a battleground for French and Austrian interests. This is why I decided to only have the 'Modern' Italy as civilization.

It's currently annoying to wait to play as them, but maybe I can figure out how to make an autoplay work for them.

Personally, I think "Modern" Italy, which DOES spawn in the 19th century, has to get some significant UP, but I REALLY can't think of anything. Leoreth, do you have any idea? Perhaps, the "Power of Unification"?? Which would perhaps give you some extra culture per city, considering the historic past of having city-states??
Talking about the reunification of Italy, I would recommend having a city in Sicily, that flips to the Spanish in the 16th century. You should also have Milan, (rather than Venice), and ALSO have it flip to the Germans instead, in the 15th century. I wonder if you could recreate Charles V's Empire, in this game

Btw are you still going ahead with adding Brazil, Sweden etc?

There will be no triggered flips to enforce historicity.

Italy's UP will be rather useful, but I don't think culture helps them that much (they inherit their cities culture on spawn). The UHV of course will have to be balanced to be doable, though I imagine it to be one of the rather hard ones.

When Italy is implemented in every aspect, I will continue with more civs. My current set of priorities then is Byzantium -> Korea -> Prussia.

That said, only Leoreth could give a definitive answer.

Power of Spaghetti: every wheat resource has +3 food, +6 commerce!

Not sure seriously. Italy still strikes me as a renaissance nation; 1861 is a bit too late for my knowledge. Something about perhaps independent cities being more willing to join or having a benefit for conquering independent cities...

Power of Spaghetti

See above for the reasons for 1861 and against a Renaissance nation.

Thoughts for Italy:
UP:
Power of Italian Renaissance-Italian Cities(core) produce more commerce and production on average
-or-
Power of Unification-Conquering Independents in Yellow/Orange/Red areas don't count towards negative stability
UHV(s):
-Control(or vassalize) Greece, North Africa, Ethiopia(the not-achieved one) in 1950
-Be first to discover Fascism and Radio
-Control at least 2(maybe it should be more though) Corprate Headquarters in 2000


EDIT: On a different note, Leoreth, did you make it so that the Turks don't like Constantinoplis...

There will be a UP that represents Italy profiting from its colorous past. My currently favorite candidate is a power that lets their wonders produce additional gold/commerce, maybe according to their culture (so a +8 culture wonders gives +8 commerce).

My UHV ideas were quite similar to yours:

• Be first to discover Fascism and Radio (and maybe Fission)
• Control Greece, Libya and Ethiopia in 1940 AD
• Control seven wonders in 1960 AD

I did nothing for or against Constantinople. Sometimes the Turks are simply ... stupid.

I finally did my tests. The results (of course it's 600AD marathon):
The only broken civs are Spain and Aztecs (don't know about America and the Netherlands, it takes too long with my computer). For Spain, the catapult in the South Pole is just an additonal unit, I can continue after autoplay and get normal units in Iberia.
For the Aztecs, I can't continue and get only the catapult in the South Pole.
As far as I can see, your modmod doesn't like Native Americans

Thanks a lot. It's very helpful to know that the Spanish spawn stack appears, but the Aztec's doesn't - helps narrowing down the responsible lines of code.


By the way, I recommend to play some classical games now. The Levant->Europe change improved Phoenicia's behaviour a lot, they now seem to leave Hattusas and Jerusalem alone and build much more colonies in the Mediterranean.
It's intriguing how much the continents influence AI behavior. Maybe that could be used to our advantage in other situations (I wonder what happens should India become "European" in the colonial era ...).

 

[merijn_v1]

I vote for this UP:
The power of Pizza
Every city gets + 1-2

No, I'm just kidding.

 

[Leoreth]

Honestly, that first came to my mind as well when I pondered what Italy's internationally known for. We've got such a stereotyped world view

 

[LuKo]

It's not as stupid as one could think. It could represent baby boom after unification

 

[dcode147]

Especially for those cramped European states (ie: like Italy, Prussia and Austria) UPs that gives a boost in food, production or commerce in cities might be critical. Essentially they have to make do with less cities to accomplish a victory.

How many cities were you planning on fitting within the Italian core area in a typical game played by the AI?

Also if the Italian UHV is so centered around Ethiopia, I'm guessing Ethiopia isn't going to be on the shortlist of civs we can use their civ slots for anytime soon? Cuz I've always felt Ethiopia, more so than any other civ, (maybe except for the Khmer) had their in-game potential overly exaggerated. They might make gameplay sense to include from a geographical perspective, but I feel in terms of their amount of historical influence, an independent city at Axum might suffice as well.

In terms of your civ priorties list, could a Safavid/later-than-Achaemenid-Persian-state, and Gran Colombia be added as well?

 

[The Turk]

Well the Safavids, can just be a respawned Persia in 1501, we don't need a WHOLE new civilization EACH time. Also as for the Khmer, I think they are vital for filling up that part of the world, or else, what happens there? Finally Ethiopia is a MUST! And the Italian player, should be forced to invade them, OR vassalize them, but a respawned Ethiopia, is really needed. Or else the Italian UHV, would be too easy.

 

[Magnificent One]

In historical terms, there was no Renaissance Italy other than a bunch of feuding city states that only shared Italian language and culture. Only Venice and Milan were powerful enough to be of international importance, and I think even they would be too small to warrant a civ.
Modern Italy on the other hand was formed in 1861, after the remaining states on the Italian peninsula decided to unify. That was the first time history saw the peninsula unified since Roman rule - in the Renaissance and after, it was merely a battleground for French and Austrian interests. This is why I decided to only have the 'Modern' Italy as civilization.

Wasn't Greece a bunch of city states? And Holy Rome? And Spain was about 4 seperate countries until 1500.

I still think it would be a better move to have them spawn in 760.

 

[Leoreth]

Especially for those cramped European states (ie: like Italy, Prussia and Austria) UPs that gives a boost in food, production or commerce in cities might be critical. Essentially they have to make do with less cities to accomplish a victory.

How many cities were you planning on fitting within the Italian core area in a typical game played by the AI?

Also if the Italian UHV is so centered around Ethiopia, I'm guessing Ethiopia isn't going to be on the shortlist of civs we can use their civ slots for anytime soon? Cuz I've always felt Ethiopia, more so than any other civ, (maybe except for the Khmer) had their in-game potential overly exaggerated. They might make gameplay sense to include from a geographical perspective, but I feel in terms of their amount of historical influence, an independent city at Axum might suffice as well.

In terms of your civ priorties list, could a Safavid/later-than-Achaemenid-Persian-state, and Gran Colombia be added as well?

We don't have to use UPs to acommodate for small sizes, Rhye has implemented various productivity modifiers for each civilization anyway. Italy and the others will of course get a proper boost to be competitive.

The Italian core will be the Italian peninsula, the surrounding islands (Sardinia and Sicily) and maybe todays Slovenia.

I haven't thought about Ethiopia, but you're right, it would be better if it were alive at that point. And I agree with you that Ethiopia is only in to add some flavor to Africa and to serve as an interesting player alt-history.

Safavids and Gran Colombia are also on my list; though it all depends on how much civ slots I have available (civs whose slots I use obviously can't respawn as themselves).

Wasn't Greece a bunch of city states? And Holy Rome? And Spain was about 4 seperate countries until 1500.

I still think it would be a better move to have them spawn in 760.

First, 760 is really just an arbitrary date I've chosen for convenience. If I'd make Italy a renaissance civ, it'll probably be oriented on Venice or the Medici, which would move their spawn more to the 12th or 14th century, respectively.

You have good points, but the case is still different.
Greece consisted of many city states, but even in the classical period they were under a powerful state's hegemony (Athens and Sparta) and responded to foreign attacks in a confederational manner (see their joint efforts against the Achaemenid invasion). In the hellenistic era, all cities have become part of a centralized kingdom, e.g. the Seleucid or Macedon empires.

The HRE was quite centralized in its early centuries, probably even more so than France or England until the High Middle Ages. It only really started to fracture in the Late Middle Ages when the Emperor lost authority to both the Pope and his regional princes. But there was still a common framework between these quasi-independent states.

I wouldn't have Spain spawn as Visigoths as Rhye did, but Castille-Leon was still the major Christian power of the peninsula, and only Portugal and Aragon were also significant. That this and the Reconquista is left out in RFC is probably more because there is not enough time and space.
Edit: I just noticed that Spain spawns as Kingdom of Asturias, but my point stands

Italy lacked the common framework the above nations had, and the presence of the Papal States makes it all the more difficult.

The only thing close to it would the Lombard League (1167), which now that I think about it, would be quite a reasonable early Italian entity itself. If a renaissance Italy spawn makes it into the game, it definitely has to be without flipping Rome.

 

[The Turk]

1. The Italian core will be the Italian peninsula, the surrounding islands (Sardinia and Sicily) and maybe todays Slovenia.

2. Safavids and Gran Colombia are also on my list; though it all depends on how much civ slots I have available (civs whose slots I use obviously can't respawn as themselves).

1. Why on earth Slovenia, as a core province?? I mean really?? Their core province, should be Italy, Sicily, and that island, Sardinia. Thats it. And then you can have border provinces of where they colonized

2. Hello!? Use the Incas for Gran Colombia, and, use PERSIA for the Safavids! For the love of God, PLEASE do not make the Safavids, their OWN civilization! The way civ's should be chosen, is by ethnicity, or distinct culture! Thats why I'm very shifty ANYWAYS on adding Gran Colombia. But just have the game start off with a weakening Persian Empire the Sassanids (this is for 600AD start), which is all Zoroastrian, and then have the Arabs, wipe them out, and eliminate Zoroastrianism. Then, you can have the Persians respawn in 1501 as the Safavids, which until they collapse will be the Empire de jour, of the area. And once they collapse, they can respawn in 1979, as the Islamic Republic of Iran.

 

[Leoreth]

1. Why on earth Slovenia, as a core province?? I mean really?? Their core province, should be Italy, Sicily, and that island, Sardinia. Thats it. And then you can have border provinces of where they colonized

2. Hello!? Use the Incas for Gran Colombia, and, use PERSIA for the Safavids! For the love of God, PLEASE do not make the Safavids, their OWN civilization! The way civ's should be chosen, is by ethnicity, or distinct culture! Thats why I'm very shifty ANYWAYS on adding Gran Colombia. But just have the game start off with a weakening Persian Empire the Sassanids (this is for 600AD start), which is all Zoroastrian, and then have the Arabs, wipe them out, and eliminate Zoroastrianism. Then, you can have the Persians respawn in 1501 as the Safavids, which until they collapse will be the Empire de jour, of the area. And once they collapse, they can respawn in 1979, as the Islamic Republic of Iran.

First, please watch your tone. We can discuss everything here, and I gladly admit when I'm wrong somewhere, but I won't let myself be shouted at like an ignorant fool. I don't know if it was intended or not, but that's how it arrives here. So please keep your capital letters and exclamation marks for yourself next time.

1. Slovenia's tiles contain Trieste and Southern Tyrolia, among others, which were native Italian territories.

2. Yes I can use Persia for Safavids, but whether Inca -> Gran Colombia is right is another question. I especially said that as a caveat against too many civ suggestions ... I can't possibly fulfill them all.

 

[The Turk]

Well, I'm sorry you took it as screaming, but I can assure you that when I use question marks/explanation marks, I'm not screaming, as much as I am stressing a point. But I'm sorry you took it that way, as that is NOT what I intended. I also capitalize letters, to get a point across, which in the past has worked fairly well, but again, please do not take it as blatant "screaming", I'm not "mad" at you, you haven't done anything wrong.... or have you

But anyways... Yes I agree with you about Incas becoming Gran Colombia, I think perhaps then Argentina would be better, as that tends to be settled very heavly by the Spanish usually, and would act as a greater deterrer to Brazilian aggression

Keep up the good work

 

[Leoreth]

Well, I'm sorry you took it as screaming, but I can assure you that when I use question marks/explanation marks, I'm not screaming, as much as I am stressing a point. But I'm sorry you took it that way, as that is NOT what I intended. I also capitalize letters, to get a point across, which in the past has worked fairly well, but again, please do not take it as blatant "screaming", I'm not "mad" at you, you haven't done anything wrong.... or have you

Okay, apology accepted then. I suggest you use bold/italicized text for a more subtle way of emphasis.

 

[dcode147]

Italy lacked the common framework the above nations had, and the presence of the Papal States makes it all the more difficult.

The only thing close to it would the Lombard League (1167), which now that I think about it, would be quite a reasonable early Italian entity itself. If a renaissance Italy spawn makes it into the game, it definitely has to be without flipping Rome.

Hmm... sounds really interesting. It would be really awesome if some sort of system to have an Italy spawn (perhaps at first representing Milan historically) to be worked out. It might be really difficult to balance them out in the scheme of European politics however. A slightly more powerful northern Italian civ would severely hinder the possibility of a French or HRE controlled Rome. A slightly weaker northern Italian civ would on the other hand get crushed by France and/or the HRE. Sorry I don't have any suggestions for making the Italians playable for a longer period of time. Maybe the current spawn date you're working with is the best idea for now.

2. Hello!? Use the Incas for Gran Colombia, and, use PERSIA for the Safavids! For the love of God, PLEASE do not make the Safavids, their OWN civilization! The way civ's should be chosen, is by ethnicity, or distinct culture! Thats why I'm very shifty ANYWAYS on adding Gran Colombia. But just have the game start off with a weakening Persian Empire the Sassanids (this is for 600AD start), which is all Zoroastrian, and then have the Arabs, wipe them out, and eliminate Zoroastrianism. Then, you can have the Persians respawn in 1501 as the Safavids, which until they collapse will be the Empire de jour, of the area. And once they collapse, they can respawn in 1979, as the Islamic Republic of Iran.

Ah, well I was kinda hoping they could be playable civs as opposed to just respawns. A Safavid/other-than-Achaemenid-Persia civ could make the middle east politics more interesting than the usual Arab-Turkish dynamics. I feel like Shia Islam is important enough that it deserves a civ that represents its historical role. It might just be cool overall to add another Islamic power to balance things out in the world a bit. Right now there's so many more playable Christian civs, like >10 or so, versus playable Islamic civs, like 2.

Although it's true that Gran Colombia never ended up as one unified culture, I think having such a state to challenge Spain's (or other colonizer's) dominance in South America makes more sense than having European colonies in SA up throughout the 20th century. If their stability isn't good, they'd collapse into many small states anyway. Ideally I hope this civ could be to Spain and other SA colonizers what America currently is to England and NA colonizers. And if this civ is to be added, it prolly makes more sense to give them their own distinctive name. It feels better that way than to have Incans fighting for freedom against the Spanish in Venezuela.

In an ideal world, RFC SA could be really awesome. A separate civ, as you mentioned, could exist South of Brazil representing United Provinces of Rio de da Plata and later Argentina. This would make 19th century SA actually very interesting in terms of gameplay. There would Brazil (could be represented by Portugal, led by Pedro II), Rio de la Plata (led by Artigas), Colombia (led by Bolivar), Peru/Chile (could be an Incan respawn led by San Martin). If the the world is even more than perfect, Aztecs would even respawn as Mexico (led by Santa Ana) and so NA would have interesting conflicts between US and Mexico over the current American Southwest.

There are, as with any change, some negatives in addition to the positives:
-This might open up a floodgate of new civ requests. It would be hard to explain why Argentina deserves its own civ while Canada doesn't
-Also is the fact that Spanish colonial possessions split off into historcally interesting states that fought many wars with each other enough to justify that fact that Spain would get majorly screwed over more than any other civ by the addition of all these rebellious colonial states? Even though these changes would make historical sense, I do lament that it would bring to the end another world power in RFC (Spain), however ahistoric that world power may have been.

Yeah, I agree with you that the Khmer and Ethiopia are necessary due to geography. Everything would be so much easier if even just at some one point there was a Khmer leader who conquered a vast swath of territory in like China or India or across Oceania. RFC might've even given them too much credit already for allowing them to get lands of the Cham Empire(Vietnam), Bagan Empire (Pagan in game), Singapore and the Indonesian islands so easily.

 

[AOS9001]

I don't think the Turk is so much of an angry guy as he is a very enthusiastic guy.

Having played many games as Rome where I end up confined to the Italian peninsula, I don't think they need much help in the food zone. The best UP idea I can think of is something along the lines of extra commerce from food resources, because just about everyone likes Italian food.

 

[dcode147]

Leoreth's gold from wonders idea sounds good considering how many wonders Italy has in real life. But this UP seems almost too inactive and uncontrollable the way the American UP is. It's good... but my personal favorite UPs have been the ones you, the player, can actively take advantage of, such as the Viking UP.

 

[Leoreth]

Hmm... sounds really interesting. It would be really awesome if some sort of system to have an Italy spawn (perhaps at first representing Milan historically) to be worked out. It might be really difficult to balance them out in the scheme of European politics however. A slightly more powerful northern Italian civ would severely hinder the possibility of a French or HRE controlled Rome. A slightly weaker northern Italian civ would on the other hand get crushed by France and/or the HRE. Sorry I don't have any suggestions for making the Italians playable for a longer period of time. Maybe the current spawn date you're working with is the best idea for now.

I agree. The Italian peninsula makes for a quite historical conflict between Germany and France at the moment, as it was historically.
Although I'm already quite convinced of a late medieval Italy ..

Ah, well I was kinda hoping they could be playable civs as opposed to just respawns. A Safavid/other-than-Achaemenid-Persia civ could make the middle east politics more interesting than the usual Arab-Turkish dynamics. I feel like Shia Islam is important enough that it deserves a civ that represents its historical role. It might just be cool overall to add another Islamic power to balance things out in the world a bit. Right now there's so many more playable Christian civs, like >10 or so, versus playable Islamic civs, like 2.

I think you're talking about different things here. I suppose The Turk is only against the Safavids being a civ on its own in terms of UU, UB, flag and color. I'd very much like to have them playable, so a "take control over Persia" popup will definitely appear, whether the civilization changes or not.

Although it's true that Gran Colombia never ended up as one unified culture, I think having such a state to challenge Spain's (or other colonizer's) dominance in South America makes more sense than having European colonies in SA up throughout the 20th century. If their stability isn't good, they'd collapse into many small states anyway. Ideally I hope this civ could be to Spain and other SA colonizers what America currently is to England and NA colonizers. And if this civ is to be added, it prolly makes more sense to give them their own distinctive name. It feels better that way than to have Incans fighting for freedom against the Spanish in Venezuela.
[...]

There are, as with any change, some negatives in addition to the positives:
-This might open up a floodgate of new civ requests. It would be hard to explain why Argentina deserves its own civ while Canada doesn't
-Also is the fact that Spanish colonial possessions split off into historcally interesting states that fought many wars with each other enough to justify that fact that Spain would get majorly screwed over more than any other civ by the addition of all these rebellious colonial states? Even though these changes would make historical sense, I do lament that it would bring to the end another world power in RFC (Spain), however ahistoric that world power may have been.

Good points. Adding too much post-colonial civs really would prompt more requests about Canada, Australia etc. I think a good test if a civ is worthwile is if you can formulate two UHV conditions right out of your head.

Personally, I have my problems here with both Canada and Australia, and even Gran Colombia might be difficult.

Yeah, I agree with you that the Khmer and Ethiopia are necessary due to geography. Everything would be so much easier if even just at some one point there was a Khmer leader who conquered a vast swath of territory in like China or India or across Oceania. RFC might've even given them too much credit already for allowing them to get lands of the Cham Empire(Vietnam), Bagan Empire (Pagan in game), Singapore and the Indonesian islands so easily.

I view the Khmer more as a stand-in culture for various civilizations of Indochina. They actually even become Siam (a Thai kingdom) in the late game, which is why I considered to rename Suryavarman to Ramkhamhaeng and make them outright Thais.

Both civs are only fillers that add flavor and interaction to otherwise empty areas.

I don't think the Turk is so much of an angry guy as he is a very enthusiastic guy.

Having played many games as Rome where I end up confined to the Italian peninsula, I don't think they need much help in the food zone. The best UP idea I can think of is something along the lines of extra commerce from food resources, because just about everyone likes Italian food.

Oh, he didn't sound angry too me, and it's quite obvious that he's enthusiastic (which I find is a very sympathetic trait). But his enthusiasm sometimes came across as condescending - but that issue's over now.

Leoreth's gold from wonders idea sounds good considering how many wonders Italy has in real life. But this UP seems almost too inactive and uncontrollable the way the American UP is. It's good... but my personal favorite UPs have been the ones you, the player, can actively take advantage of, such as the Viking UP.

Most UPs are passive though, unfortunately. A wonder oriented UP would at least encourage the player to conquer more wonder-heavy cities.

 

[Sandmonster1989]

As nice as a Korean civilization is, could u put Prussia on ur list before them

From what I can tell, you've used 3 "useless" ancient nation's slots. One is rome, you are going to use Greece. What civs are you going to replace for Korea and Prussia? I suggest the Babylonians and the Phoenecians. VERY VERY useless civs to respawn (which reminds me, I finally had Persia respawn instead of Egypt).

And the real "Wonder heavy cities" are usually in Germany and Turkey. Could you add them to "Contested Areas" for Italy?