Dawn of Civilization - an RFC modmod by Leoreth

[dcode147]

Then there's the question where Germany can expand peacefully at all. Spawn in Vienna, Frankfurt flips ... anything else can already get difficult with Warszawa's and Viking Denmark's cultural pressure on the borders.
If we had a bigger map, I'd gladly include it, but here ...

Peaceful expansion is overrated

I'd be fine with it if independent cities are autorazed upon conquest. That helps create the illusion the map is bigger than it is by giving us more freedom as to what cities we would like to build there. Also we wouldn't be stuck with the same cities in the region for all games. If it’s still too crowded, maybe one well placed city could do the trick instead of two?

I feel like this does bring up the question whether we really need to separate the current HRE/Germany into two civs or not, especially given how crowdedness. With >10 civs in Europe alone from the Middle Ages on (France, Spain, HRE/Germany, England, Netherlands, Portugal, Scandinavia, Russia, Turkey, Leoreth’s awesome new inclusion of Italy, Turkey and possibly Greece and Rome), I think there’s enough civs to work with to replicate Europe’s complicated historical conflicts and make for interesting gameplay.
I like the current idea of having one civ represent the German-culture historic powers and their successor states. What about using dynamic civ naming and capital switching to allow for the current German civ to better represent the HRE and Austria (capital at Wien) and later Prussia and Germany (capital moved to Berlin). Of course, Berlin would need to be made into a much more attractive place for human and AI players to build a city there.
If you’re worried about human players aiming for their UHV goals too early, why not a combination of
-Up until year 1600AD, nerf military unit production when a human player controls the HRE/Germany.
-Up until year 1800AD, make HRE/Germany hard to keep stable and suffer severe penalties if they occupy foreign lands
-giving the HRE/Germany an addition Medieval Age UHV that will keep players busy for earlier parts of the game
-make the Vikings and Turks greater military threats, make Italy more of a nuisance. Add either one or two independent cities in Eastern Europe to be a military nuisance as well.

 

[Leoreth]

On the AP mechanics: I've no idea where they are implemented yet. I could give it a look, but maybe it's too hardcoded to change it easily.

On Germany: what bothers me is that a Germany spawning in the middle ages has too much time on its hands to conquer Europe. It's easily possible to beat the 1870 AD goal by 1500 or even earlier, if one sets his mind on it. That's not much fun, nor very historical. A late spawning civ on the other hand has to rush its conquests, like Germany tried to in actual history.

 

[Llama231]

And the commonly known Middle Eastern crusades era is roughly 200 years (first crusade in 1095, fall of Acre in 1291), which only translates into 20 turns ingame.

By this logic, the conqueror's event should only be viable for half of the 16th century.

I think that a crusader event would be reasonable, so long as the prerequisites are good. And maybe instead of creating units, it is an events that occurs when a Christian (Theocracy?) contacts Arabia while it is controlling Jerusalem (or some other set of variables for other crusades) and allow for instant transportation of some chosen units to the location. This method would also make the American events more historically accurate too, and allow for more choice for the player.

 

[Sandmonster1989]

In reguards to a city in Eastern Europe... why not have a stronger Kiev and a Warsaw and/or Danzig?

And Leoreth, about the Babylonians (because it directly affects the Byzantines you've been working so hard on), did you decide on the UP having additional golden age length, or did you have something else in mind? And if you are using that, will it accumulate with the MoM?

Also, somebody being able to vote in the AP, after they've became Protestant... Realistically, there would still be bishops/etc. in the cities (think reality). The population would have some representation in the Catholic Religion... I hope I've been understood. It is logical the way it is. Like you said, Leoreth, the player that switches with the Reformation won't get many votes.

 

[dcode147]

On the AP mechanics: I've no idea where they are implemented yet. I could give it a look, but maybe it's too hardcoded to change it easily.

On Germany: what bothers me is that a Germany spawning in the middle ages has too much time on its hands to conquer Europe. It's easily possible to beat the 1870 AD goal by 1500 or even earlier, if one sets his mind on it. That's not much fun, nor very historical. A late spawning civ on the other hand has to rush its conquests, like Germany tried to in actual history.

Were you able to look at some of the ideas I offered? If you don't think they'll go far enough, that's fine. Just wanted to make sure you're aware of them

If you’re worried about human players aiming for their UHV goals too early, why not a combination of
-Up until year 1600AD, nerf military unit production when a human player controls the HRE/Germany.
-Up until year 1800AD, make HRE/Germany hard to keep stable and suffer severe penalties if they occupy foreign lands
-giving the HRE/Germany an addition Medieval Age UHV that will keep players busy for earlier parts of the game
-make the Vikings and Turks greater military threats, make Italy more of a nuisance. Add either one or two independent cities in Eastern Europe to be a military nuisance as well.

Also maybe you could also make HRE in the middle ages and renaissance a brutal quest for survival against revolting cities, central and eastern european barbarians/independents and the Ottomans, all the while trying to conquer some territories (such as Rome and Venice), right before the spawn date of Italy.


Also with the inclusion of the Byzantines, are you planning on any tweaks/changes with religion and especially how that would impact Byzantine-Russia-Catholic relations?

 

[civ_king]

In reguards to a city in Eastern Europe... why not have a stronger Kiev and a Warsaw and/or Danzig?

And Leoreth, about the Babylonians (because it directly affects the Byzantines you've been working so hard on), did you decide on the UP having additional golden age length, or did you have something else in mind? And if you are using that, will it accumulate with the MoM?

Also, somebody being able to vote in the AP, after they've became Protestant... Realistically, there would still be bishops/etc. in the cities (think reality). The population would have some representation in the Catholic Religion... I hope I've been understood. It is logical the way it is. Like you said, Leoreth, the player that switches with the Reformation won't get many votes.

Warsaw and Danzig are in Central Europe

If you think they would still have bishops you should study what happened in England in the aftermath of the separation, turned into things like
"On May 4, 1535, in London, three Carthusian monks and one Bridgettine monk were hanged until partially conscious. Then their bellies were cut open, their intestines wrenched out and tossed on a fire, and their hearts ripped out by hand. The bodies were beheaded and quartered, and the pieces were posted at various locations throughout England. As the executioner slit open his belly, John Houghton, prior of the London Carthusian monastery, said, "O most holy Jesus, have mercy upon me in this hour." This was the punishment for treason in sixteenth-century England. Their crime? Refusal to recognize "the king, our sovereign, to be the supreme head of the Church of England afore the Apostles of Christ's Church.""

 

[Leoreth]

And Leoreth, about the Babylonians (because it directly affects the Byzantines you've been working so hard on), did you decide on the UP having additional golden age length, or did you have something else in mind? And if you are using that, will it accumulate with the MoM?

Yes and yes

Were you able to look at some of the ideas I offered? If you don't think they'll go far enough, that's fine. Just wanted to make sure you're aware of them

Also maybe you could also make HRE in the middle ages and renaissance a brutal quest for survival against revolting cities, central and eastern european barbarians/independents and the Ottomans, all the while trying to conquer some territories (such as Rome and Venice), right before the spawn date of Italy.

Yes, I am. But that's a lot to balance and I don't know if it'll work out.

Another reason for two different civs is that Firaxis offered us two, and a HRE UHV might actually be kinda fun (controlling Rome before Italy appears, found Protestantism etc.).

Also with the inclusion of the Byzantines, are you planning on any tweaks/changes with religion and especially how that would impact Byzantine-Russia-Catholic relations?

If you mean the inclusion of Orthodoxy, then no. But I'll make Justinian a little less religion-biased in diplomacy so that he's not too good friends with the Catholics around him.

Warsaw and Danzig are in Central Europe

Oh no, please not that again

 

[Ambassador]

But I'll make Justinian a little less religion-biased in diplomacy so that he's not too good friends with the Catholics around him.

... and a little more openminded to the Zoroastrian Persians and the Muslim Arabs. Great idea! Once again, I have to express my sincere appreciation and admiration how well you ordered this modmod!

 

[AOS9001]

Why don't you just have some smaller modifiers for happiness between Justinian/Yaroslav-Peter-Catherine-Whoever and the rest of the Euros? Still have the -8 "We don't like your religion" or whatever towards non Christians, but maybe only a +1 "We share the faith" with other Christians (with the still +6 or whatever to Russia).

And if you really want a realistic Byzantium start, why not cut the troubles down and make a 330 AD starting scenario? Sure, it'd violate a whole bunch of things, but you won't find a better way.

 

[Leoreth]

As always, we have to wait how turns out. If you knew how many of my ideas fell apart when I tried to implement them

By the way, if you've noticed that I had nothing new to announce these last days ... there was another project that's keeping me busy. But now I've got enough enthusiasm again to seriously continue here.

Crosspost edit:

And if you really want a realistic Byzantium start, why not cut the troubles down and make a 330 AD starting scenario? Sure, it'd violate a whole bunch of things, but you won't find a better way.

That's not as easy as it sounds, because it would affect a whole lot of Python and C++ methods which are dependent on the scenario you're in.

 

[AOS9001]

That's not as easy as it sounds, because it would affect a whole lot of Python and C++ methods which are dependent on the scenario you're in.

I figured it'd be something like that. Hmm... Wish I actually had time to read that programming thing that one Py-Scenario person supplied me with a month or two back. Well, I guess that's always a back up if everything else goes wrong.

 

[Leoreth]

The Roman UP works now, but I've yet to run some test games with it. It's basically a conqueror event on anyone they declare war on, which should help them in wars against Phoenicia and Egypt.

 

[AOS9001]

The Roman UP works now, but I've yet to run some test games with it. It's basically a conqueror event on anyone they declare war on, which should help them in wars against Phoenicia and Egypt.

That's probably the best UP there is yet. Does it expire with anything, or do the units never update with tech?

 

[Ambassador]

UU and UB will be Cataphract and Hippodrome, as usual.

For the UHV, I was thinking about:

• Have X gold in 1000 AD (the value of X would have to be balanced to be challenging yet possible)
• Make Constantinopolis the biggest and culturally most advanced city in the world in 1200 AD
• Control 3 cities in Europe, Africa and Asia in 1450 AD (ahistorical; resisting Turks and Arabs)

Looks rather ripped off of SoI, now that I see it

The UP is difficult. Possibilities:

Byzantine Diplomacy: I like SoI's take on it very much; it's both a good historical representation and also heaps of fun. As already said, the UP would have to be tweaked a little because Byzantium has less cities on a world map.
Mercenaries: Phoenicia will lose that power soon, so it would be available. Historically, that UP fits the army of the late Empire.
Themata: Another possible military UP. It could give +2 recruitments per turn, representing the Byzantine themata system.

I'm not too positive to carrying over the UP from RFCE. Even if we take Greece and Anatolia as core, it's only 3-4 cities including Constantinople that are kept from

Hi Leoreth,

just read your thoughts from an older post. Just my two cents:

Instead of the Hippodrome as the UB for the Byzantines I would argue for a better monastery. Historically, there was only one major Hippodrome, that in Constantinople whereas monasteries were at the core of Byzantine culture from the 9th c. onward. I would like to give them +2 hammers so as to reflect their importance for the economy and as an incentive for Byzantine players to build them.

Cataphract is nice. What would you think about Dromons?

I very much agree with the increased spy points as their UP.

 

[Leoreth]

That's probably the best UP there is yet. Does it expire with anything, or do the units never update with tech?

The units never upgrade, and it works only once on each civ to avoid exploits. I've also already thought about limiting it to Mediterranean civs, to keep the Romans from declaring on China and getting an army near Beijing.

Hi Leoreth,

just read your thoughts from an older post. Just my two cents:

Instead of the Hippodrome as the UB for the Byzantines I would argue for a better monastery. Historically, there was only one major Hippodrome, that in Constantinople whereas monasteries were at the core of Byzantine culture from the 9th c. onward. I would like to give them +2 hammers so as to reflect their importance for the economy and as an incentive for Byzantine players to build them.

Cataphract is nice. What would you think about Dromons?

I very much agree with the increased spy points as their UP.

I don't know if religious buildings can be UBs at all (they're a special class of buildings).

The cataphracts have two things in their favor compared to Dromons:
- land UUs are normally more useful than naval UUs
- cataphracts already have existing graphics ingame

 

[Jusos2108]

I have to agree with Ambassador that the hippodrome isn't a good enough UB as it is. Maybe the bonuses it provides could be changed or then a completely another UB could be impleted, no idea what it could be though..

 

[Sandmonster1989]

Leoreth (or anyone who could help), I have been frustrated at the SVN... I am not able to use Tortoise or many other SVN programs (it says "installation not supported by this process type"). I mean, you've released early versions of the Byzantines as well as the Babylonian and Roman's UP... it would be fun to try them out!! THANKS IN ADVANCE!!

 

[AOS9001]

Just tried Rome's new UP out. I must say, it is quite delicious. I was able to take down Greece, Egypt, and Phoenicia within historical times, and probably could have actually gotten the whole Roman Empire conquered if I wanted to go that far. This is really, really going to help things for both the AI and Human. Hooray for uber Rome!

Edit: Some things I noticed-
-Sometimes, after a victory, Rome gets another Legion spawned. I first noticed it after a successful amphibious assault and somehow 3 units were on my galley.
-Monarch auto-load for at least Epic and Marathon lengths is broken for Byzantium. The game crashes every time when I try to do these. I'm going to try loading on Viceroy to see if it happens again.

 

[jammerculture]

The Roman UP works now, but I've yet to run some test games with it. It's basically a conqueror event on anyone they declare war on, which should help them in wars against Phoenicia and Egypt.

Awesome, I'm sure this will do the trick, or at least create the possibility for a realistic empire by human players, and bring us a lot closer with the AI. I can't wait to try it out. Do you have any kind of time-frame for an official stable release?

As far as Babylon goes, I played a few quick games to refresh my memory of what Babylon is all about. My focus was on analyzing the effect of various bonus to the UHV to find a power that fits the criteria of "not making the UHV easier". A couple of probelms with this. First, the timeframe for Babylon is so early and so short, a lot of game mechanics, i.e. trade routes, great people, don't really come into play, which limits potential effects of a new UHV to the basic factors of civ such as happiness, health, culture and commerce. However, boosting any of these even a little makes the UHV a whole lot easier.

Conceptually, I would like to see a UP that reflects the king-worship of Babylon, but how to implement this? One thing I thought of was to add religion effects, increased culture and happiness, to tyranny or monarchy civics. However, either of these effects are severely op in reference to the Babylonian UHV. As well, the UHV research condition already represents this very well.

Another thing about Babylon that has always bothered me is that the Babylonia was actually a collection of city states and warfare between them is what defined the dynastic eras of it's history. This is hard to portray in civ however, but one way would be through the use of barbarian incursions, or poor relations with the independents in the region. this could also spice the gameplay for Babylon up a little as I find games as it tend to be just a bunch of "end turn" as I wait for things to research. Perhaps if a change is implemented to correct this, the new UHV could help you against the added hostilities. The trick would be to make it be something that helped early, but wore off, or became less useful as time went on.


Realistically, however, Babylon is fine. It exists for human players as a quick OCC that is quite honestly perfect as a puzzle, that still requires luck to succeed. For the AI it is just fodder for Persia, and in the best case scenario, a seed for a future Arab power base. The only problem with it is that it tends to live too long, but you mentioned earlier that you have corrected this so, really, it's probably not worth your time tinkering with it, unless your goal is to modify the area for future Baghdad.

 

[keli]

Another idea I had is that could you make religion-resources a bit more diverse and realistic? I mean for example, that islamic countries should not use the +1 happiness from wine and the +1 health from pig, but maybe the religion instead of giving only +1 happiness it could give +2 constantly or +2 from incense .