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Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lain, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    Kind of want to talk about the opportunity cost of Aesthetics path... take a look at this map and help me judge if the detour to Great Library + failgold is worth stagnating @size 4 until 300 BC or so. Well, not like there is big growth potential with the health situation, but you know, just generally... what to do?

    Monarchy first and then Aesthetics-Literature seems way too risky.

    Also any feedback appreciated. I feel like I handle the early game much better now. Feel free to crush my confidence into little pieces again :D

    Spoiler :


     

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  2. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    I would say nope for Aest, even if it's usually fun :-/
    With wine, no Anarchy & not that many forests, Mona wins imo.

    Good question if sheep are enuf for health hmmm, annoying that Rice city would be so weak.
    I might have settled Helio 1N, loses one green river tile but gains Rice after 2nd border pop (no biggie with Cre).
     
  3. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    Hmmm, hard to resist Aest, but yup, delaying Monarchy is sad. Good point on Heliopolis. Just felt that with so much commerce maybe we can afford a weak rice city :). Has some green tiles at least.

    I should really think about ToA a bit more often... could have got lots of failgold with wonders going late.
     
  4. Izuul

    Izuul Level 86

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    Limited sample size, but ToA seems to go around 1200 BC in the ISO games that i have played. Of course it's possible for it to go quite a bit earlier or later, but I've found that if you can't get a decent amount of hammers into it by 1200 BC you probably shouldn't bother trying.
     
  5. Pedro78

    Pedro78 Chieftain

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    @Rusten only 2T later Optics with 6 cities and CoL? That's quite impressive, I'm definitely interested in looking at the saves.

    @Lain Here I'd most likely go Monarchy - Litt. I don't recall ever seeing GLib built before T100 by the AI, and you can def. get it before that. Also, why isn't Helio 1N of its current position? More forests and less tundra crap, plus it will have the rice with second border pop.

    Don't forget that ToA requires Poly+Masonry, neither of which you want if you're skipping CoL&Litt -- I don't think ToA failgold is all that attractive when you're not IND / are not going for Litt.

    Btw I've played another opening in the Sally game and got T63 Oracle - CoL -- quite a risky gamble, but having CS so early with a SPI leader is really cool :D
     
  6. Rusten

    Rusten Chieftain

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    Looking at it now it's 3t slower to optics.

    Game peculiarities:
    Spoiler :

    -Pre-optics Golden Age
    -6 cities (early)
    -CoL+caste
    None of which are the norm for isolation, but they are closely linked (mutually beneficial).

    Chichen Itza was built ~500 BC. Surely that's not normal? I wanted to put some hammers into it.
    Other musings (updated as I recall things):

    In a regular game plains cottages are a big nono. In isolation it's not the case if you have strong food resources as there are limited ways of dealing with happy cap and very few useful things to whip. In some ways one could argue that the plains cottage outperforms the grassland one because many times you're just growing into unhappiness anyway and unhealthiness becomes a concern. It also benefits more from golden ages.

    If you have a mix of grassland and plains it also lets you keep the cottages post optics while you're farming the grassland for drafting/whipping (thus not bulldozing villages). It's something I will keep in mind for later games -- it might be better to cottage the plains tile over the grassland one taking everything into account (for certain city types).
     

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    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
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  7. Pedro78

    Pedro78 Chieftain

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    Thanks for the saves Rusten. I looked through all of them. Gave it a bit of thinking and I like your strategy much better than mine -- it gives you a lot of flexibility after first contact (i.e. can attack with Cannons+Maces pretty early, which was impossible in my game). You're also way ahead in GPP (even though you'll be a little late to Astro, and you have these horrible artist points in Tokyo -- ofc you will get the Whale sooner, but isn't getting a GM later more important?). I really like that settled GS.

    There is a few things that I disagree with, though.

    • Pottery first and 4th city settled so late. Kinda goes together because Pottery first hampers your early production & that city has a great commerce potential. I don't mind reaching Monarchy a bit later if I have 4 instead of 3 size 5-6 cities with libraries by then.
    • Non-river plains / GH cottages in capital, even though you have grasslands available? Ofc these tiles were forested, and forests adds health, which makes running plains cottages better than chopping the forests. But you could've chopped a Settler in Kyoto and whipped a library in Tokyo. The more (iso) games I play, the more I see unchopped forests as a bad thing -- chopping does really speed up your development + you wouldn't have to build these crappy hills cottages (especially as WMs are much better after RP). And if you're going to build an Academy in your capital, you reall want it to grow.. I don't understand your logic here
    You make a good point about plains vs grass cottages, but I don't think it fits well to this particular game. As you're not going to work food negative tiles (except workshops) when producing units, there's really little value in these plains cottages -- especially as you're in CS and can run merchants. In your game's Satsuma for example I'd much rather have cottaged the grass tile and ran one merchant than cottaged the 2 plains tiles. Plains cottages won't beat a specialist "commerce-wise" before Optics anyway. Not sure if this was very clear, but if you don't agree, please disagree ;)

    Do you really bulldoze villages to build farms after Astro in iso? I'm usually doing fine with just grass cottages and whatever food surplus I have, maybe build an additional grass farm if available -- too much whipping results in a lot of unhappiness. And after Chemistry, caste workshops outperform whipping anyway (especially when you start drafting later on, you can't really whip+draft)

    Now that I think of it btw my third city location was really dumb -- not sure what I was thinking (maybe pigs not having any commerce fooled me..)

    One last thing that I don't like is that you have only 2 triremes and no gold in the bank, which means it will take you until T+3 after Optics to send the last caravel (not a huge deal as the Astro GS is a bit late, but can possibly deny you some trades)

    Chicken Pizza @450 BC is stupidly early, yup. Usually goes in the ADs or very late BCs -- I don't think the AI priorizes this wonder a lot.

    Anyway, your game was a lot of food for thought, definitely looking forward to the next "zip" :)
     
  8. Rusten

    Rusten Chieftain

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    The cottage plains vs grassland comment was meant as a general note -- not necessarily this game.
    You might not have enough grassland tiles to fit in grassland workshops in addition to the grassland matured cottages.
    Matured plains cottages are useful for space victory after first invasions. I'm not a fan of domination (boring). They become towns quickly with updated civics. They also vastly outperform a specialist during my 8T golden age (for cities not using GPP). I'm a fan.
    Satsuma is never going to work any cottages. The tile is improved for Kagoshima. It's either starving -1 or on a turn of +2 with the farm on size 7 with 4-5 specialists depending.

    Not sure what to think in terms of prioritizing pottery vs 4th city earlier. Too many factors to make a call without testing/calculating. I'm not going to argue that my decision is best, nor am I going to concede that it's better to do differently.

    The hills cottages were only worked just before health cap, they didn't slow down growth a significant amount. And I don't understand why you think they're bad. Kyoto is not amongst the cities to be whipped. It will run these cottages all game. It will carry my commerce later.
    The forests were originally saved for Chichen Itza, but that didn't pan out. Library makes little difference in Tokyo as it has 4 base commerce and only running merchants. On principle I agree, but chopping requires worker turns so it can be difficult to squeeze it in. If the only way to get the required worker turns is to make more workers then it defeats the original point of adding production as you've just put 60 hammers into a worker.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  9. Pedro78

    Pedro78 Chieftain

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    My bad, I meant Kagoshima. Let's say one merchant=4:commerce: (you don't have a library in Kagoshima, and have an Academy in capital+libraries in your commerce cities, so this makes sense). By working 1 grass cottage + 1 merchant, you're doing 0:hammers:4:commerce: (let's not count the commerce of the first cottage as it's the same in both cases). By running 2 plains cottages, you're doing 2:hammers:1:commerce: for 10 turns, then 2:hammers:2:commerce: for 20 turns, then 2:hammers:3:commerce: for 15 turns (let's say you reach Optics @T+45). You add in 16:hammers: and 8:commerce: for the golden age (only for the 2*PlainsCott). This means GrassCot+Merchant yields you 0:hammers:180:commerce: and 2*PlainsCot gives you 96:hammers:103:commerce: -- the Merchant completely outperforms the plains cottages here (as you don't really need early hammers).

    I'm pretty sure that 4th city earlier is better. I only got Monarchy 2T later than you did, but I already had 3 size 5 cities + size 6 Capital by then (and 4 libraries).

    My point is that you don't need to remain under health cap. Neither do you need extra hammers (it's only good to have a forge by Astro time so you can get an Observatory ASAP). And you'll want to grow your capital as soon as you reach Astro & health resources trades -- it's much easier to grow on grass tiles. Now of course you can stop working all food negative tiles and work temporary farms instead, but there you're losing a lot of commerce by not working towns for many turns. I'd rather work the same grass cottages all the way through and WM the hills (it does really take a lot of time for a cottage to outperform a windmill). Compared to you I do lose a bunch of hammers pre-Optics (no big deal), but I have a stronger capital after Astro. It's ofc hard to compare our games because we played very differently.

    Could also have been running scientists and another city could have ran Merchants. Having a library would have allowed to get the second border pop @Optics and grab the whale, not polluting your merchant pool with artist points (not a huge deal).

    True. But that's yet another reason to go BW before Pottery -- cottages take a lot of worker turns and are usually not needed very early (not in this case -- my first cottage was up on T59, but I had 4 cities and it didn't significantly delay my Monarchy date). Not building early cottages allows for more chopping and quicker expansion (not saying it's always good).
     
  10. Rusten

    Rusten Chieftain

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    I don't see the logic in both claiming that early production is not needed and also claiming that all forests should be chopped.

    By those calculations working 2x cottages is better if you have a wonder to put the hammers into (which would usually be the case if you've teched to caste and have the opportunity to run merchants). In a vacuum a hammer is worth more than 1 gold (but isolation does change things). But yes, perhaps favouring plains is more of a thing to consider for games where you don't have caste available. I hate running specialists in cities where the GPP is irrelevant, but I can see it being stronger sometimes in isolation by looking at those numbers. Having 2 matured cottages over 1 is nothing to ignore long-term though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2018
  11. Pedro78

    Pedro78 Chieftain

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    I'm not exactly claiming that all forests should be chopped. But I'm claiming that when you don't have anything relevant to do mid-game with your forests, you shouldn't refrain from chopping early on. There is a big opportunity cost to building a cottage instead of chopping into a Granary or a Settler (just examples). Chops are 4 worker turns for an instant 20:hammers:. Also, as the first 4 cities basically "pay for themselves" immediately (or in very few turns for the 4th city), it's often good to settle these ASAP. Now of course it does all depend on the game, but in this one I think that chopping more in the (very) early turns would have benefited you.
    What I meant by "you don't really need early hammers in iso" is that in isolation you have very limited build options - esp. for an inland city - none of which are very useful pre-Astro, so commerce/research/gold are much more important.

    Except you're going to build CI in Kyoto (much more "natural" hammers) -- so you effectively don't have anything useful to build in Kagoshima.

    Without Caste available you're almost always going to want a library in all your cities (as libs pay for themselves very easily before Optics), so you can just run scientists when you don't have any good tiles left to work.

    You also build very few non-river cottages in normal games, and 0 non-river-non-capital-plains cottages. And after first contact, iso games basically become "normal games". The problem is that you're going to stop working these plains cottages as soon as there will be something to build. And what good does a matured cottage do you on T200+ when it has hurt you for so long? Can just run a specialist, then build a workshop on the plains tile -- also useful for building units.

    There are a few cases where I'd work plains cottages, though. First case is when you don't have CoL but have a city with huge food surplus (+8 or so). Second case is when you're FIN - in this case plains cottages outperform specs very quickly.

    Btw do you often go for Emancipation+FS+cottage spam when going for space? Never tried it before.

    Edit - and what about those YT LPs you've been talking about? I didn't forget :p
     
  12. Rusten

    Rusten Chieftain

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    I need some time to digest and consider, but it could be that running merchants over a cottage in the final two cities would be better.
    I think you're underselling the value of matured cottages tremendously though. And it's not like a normal game after first contact because the cottage improvements are so near. If you already have a matured cottage, as opposed to having to start from scratch, it makes it more worthwhile to keep running it. There's less of a waiting period. On a vanilla tile you'd generally put a workshop or farm, but with +/- 50 turns already invested into a cottage the situation is different.
    And yes, I like going "cottage" space.

    I didn't play civ from summer until now more or less -- thus no videos.
     
  13. Pedro78

    Pedro78 Chieftain

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    Depends on how much resources you will have to dedicate for the first war. If you have enough production already, you can certainly run an all-cottage city, whip Library+Observatory and not produce any units there (until you start drafting). In this case, matured cottages do indeed matter.

    However, having one city not producing any units will put even more strain on your unit-building cities, and you'll have to deal with it. Before first contact you don't know how many units you'll need, and late(ish) plains cottages don't beat running a specialist pre-Optics. IMO running a specialist and workshopping the tile later is a much more versatile option than working a plains cot all the way through. Not even counting the fact that Caste-workshops beat towns in most cases (with forge, 4base:hammers:=6:gold: which roughly amounts to 8-9:science: when you have a bureau cap with a 100% research multiplier -- much better than a 5:commerce: town).

    I'm not saying that plains cottages can't be worth it, but that even in iso there usually are better options.
     
  14. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    We could play a succession deity Iso game, as seen in the other thread ;)
     
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  15. Revent

    Revent Will SIP

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    I like the idea. My skill is probably not quite at the level to join in but I could volunteer as map maker if you wish and will be an active spectator :)
     
  16. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Am sure you can / should join in if you want :)
    Main goal is having fun, not playing perfect imo.
     
  17. Lain

    Lain Chieftain

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    I am in. What detail of discussion do we want :)?
     
  18. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    I could imagine discussing lots of things :)
    Where we settle cities (and which are worth getting), tech path, anti-barb, look of cities (cottages where, specialists mainly here?).

    No need for super detailed micro ofc, but worker actions for example can be interesting cos it's always questions we ask ourselves.
    Yup i think that's the best guide line, all those questions we want to share with others we can ask & discuss.
     
  19. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

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    Oh and ofc we have to pick what kind of map (poor, average?) before starting ~~
    Leader too, any traits we want to try?
     
  20. Pedro78

    Pedro78 Chieftain

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    We've never played Pacal. Great traits for iso and Holkans make it easy to deal with barbs. Plus I'm sure there will be more people willing to play Pacal with a decent start than Toku with crap land ;)

    Otherwise I've rolled a super-cool Monty iso last week (might scare people off). I don't really feel like playing iso for the next few days but I'll certainly get back to it.
     

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