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Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lain, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Aug 25, 2011
    No problem at all with harsh criticism.
    Thank you so much @Pedro78

    Spoiler :

    Learning new tricks is what makes this game so fun. I know I do things wrong all the time, try to correct things myself but it's not easy. :)
    300ad optics with 6 cities is probably doable, I settled a 7th city T108 and got a 7th developed city but likely lost some turns on optics because of that.
    I have difficulties not utilizing the power in food sources. So that 7th city was a city on a PH way east, to start flourish on the green sheep, as that food was not needed nor wanted by the other mature cities anymore.
    Just taking the citizens of that sheep might be optimal play from the optics date viewpoint, but it's so hard.

    The screenshots I already have available, saves from the early game is also attached.
    Spoiler Pre Optics :

    As I was playing along, I looked at Rustens screenshots (did not open his saves) and took screenshots at the same turns to compare.
    I had a different settlement pattern and tech order due to me settling close to rice and teching agriculture though.
    Something that I reacted at was that I had basically clearcut everything early, but he had not.
    Here is the period after writing, when building libraries and saving cash.

    I'm at 4 workers here, will have to look at earlier saves to see how soon I got them, but I did not get more after I had four. They where a tiny bit streched and 5 might have been nice sometimes

    Here I have reached metalcasting.
    Closing in on optics.

    And at optics.

    * I don't know the pre-whipped trebs -> cannons trick, at what hammer and to what purpose?
    Say I whip a treb at 20/80 (without forge), and the natural hammers of the city is 2, won't I end up the next turn with a cannon at 82/100 and just screwed up my cities whipanger?
    Compared to just having a few hamers invested in trebs all over the board, the turn after steel I can then whip cannons everywhere.
    What is the gain of pre-whipping? Is it just that one turn saved (which is very good obviously), or is there more to it?
    I appreciate that there should be a sense of urgency and that what can make close games make or break is just the ability to streamline the process, shave a few turns here and there.

    * "Emphasizing production is A LOT more efficient than emphasizing research, so production should almost never be a bottleneck."
    You probably have to clarify that, I don't follow.

    * Why not Joao? Because I saw that he was weak, and that he will most likely stay weak the entire game. Especially if I help things along in that direction by cutting him out of tech trades, and screwing him up where I can.
    I reserve him for a backup later on, I can allways regroup and go take his continent later on if I fail with toppling someone stronger.
    Correct or not, I have no idea. But thats the reasoning. :)

    * Did you make several switches in and out of Caste? It seems pretty bad unless you combine it with workshops + drafted rifles which are not a good idea on this map.
    I did make several switches yes.
    when I got my hands on CS, and also went into caste by then.
    Partially to provide borderpop in the dual-fish island, and partly to rush out one more GPerson (a scientist, that half-bulbed chemistry).

    2. Swapped to vass+slavery to whip good units after I got out the GSci.

    3. When I got economics I swapped to Free market+caste again, cities that could be whipped was starting to pile up their whip-anger alot, and some of the larger cities ran a few workshops.

    I liked 1, and 2 felt necessery.
    Don't really like 3, as I only got a marginal benefit from caste, and it made reinforcing problematic.
    But I don't know, feel like a whole lot of flip-flopping.

    Yes, exploring the world of marginal utility of exotic stuff keeps the game more interesting, absolutely!
    But if one does it to the detriment of the game it can make the game very un-interesting too. ;) Not fun losing every game because you are buliding Duns.


    Attached Files:

  2. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Oct 20, 2016
    I'll have a look at the saves later this week.
    Spoiler :

    Makes sense, but I'd still rather use the extra food to run scientists and get one more timely GS, delaying the settling of the 7th city to post-Optics.

    It's just one turn, which is still a lot, as you pointed out. You have to whip the trebs with 20+ overflow or you'll run into trouble.

    Whipping is extremely efficient. Cottages and stuff not so much. I wouldn't even care that much about the whip anger in the new cities (the ones settled post-Optics): they can always be gifted away and recaptured (which is one of the big advantages of attacking Joao: you can make peace and redeclare for free). In post-Optics isolation, it's easy to get caught up in the "oh, my research is so low!" train and start building observatories, working coast tiles and stuff. Just keep in mind that attacking asap is often the most important thing.

    Very greedy approach. It can get you in trouble, but can also be very rewarding so it's mostly a matter of playstyle.

    Yup, 1 and 2 were fine, FM+Caste was bad.

    You should try the Jaguar rush. Pretty tricky and a little suspicious, but works more often than not.
    krikav likes this.
  3. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Aug 25, 2011
    T228 (tbc to T247)
    Spoiler :

    Ragnar went for Qin rather soon, but I tried best I could to piggyback and did get some crumbs.

    Both of their stacks died, but now I bribe Sally to leave Gilga alone. Trapping alot of Sallys units.

    Same trick. These two cities did not bring me much joy, but they did make life easier for the cities further west.

    The last of the privateers are cornered! Carrak kill count 26.

    Could not get Guangschou, not enough units myself, and ragnar now one-shots cities.

    Attacking safely from Gilgas culture, racking up huge war success.

    Alot of grenadiers are guerilla2+combat2+formation so I dared make some effort to get the holy city. Did not see his horde of cuirs before I entered though. I thought he depleted his units defending his iceball city.
    Ofcourse now ragnar DoWs Saladin too, and instantly grabs a city of him. :<

    I heal with promotions and continue onwards, he hits me again and is now willing to capitulate! :D
    Sury is hammering Joao so I board the boats and try to get there in time.

    Fippy likes this.
  4. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Aug 25, 2011
    Spoiler T247 :

    About the same time I am ready to join in on the fun at Joaos place, Sury grabs a few of his cities and makes him a Vassal.
    I can't DoW Sury because of my vunerable cities on his mainland, so I get him busy with Ragnar.
    The race is on Ragnar!

    I lose a ton of boats to Surys destroyers. Thats about two thirds of my "army". A similar sized stack is stuck at Sallys continent as I didn't have enough boats.

    Ragnars stack looks... Abit more impressive.

    I got most of it. At least I kicked sury of the island (He had taken Oporto, Lagos, Braga and Evora!)
    Ragnar just finished Hollywood, so he will get UN to.
    Sury whom just got his first legendary city cries abit though, as he lost most of his other cities that where close, second and third are now at 100+ turns.
    Ragnar winning space seems awfully likely now, and it will take quite some effort to prevent that.

    Fippy and sampsa like this.
  5. Fippy

    Fippy Micro Junkie Queen

    Mar 17, 2013
    Veeery interesting, so do you think Grens was a good pick? :)
    Doubtful that Rags leaves you in peace, with his vassals hating you.
    Usually this situation asks for Tanks, but he will have such advanced units by then..any ideas?
    krikav likes this.
  6. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Aug 25, 2011
    Spoiler :

    Yes, I think going for grenadiers quickly was a good choice! Had I tried to hold out for a RP-trade I would have been in no position to get the stuff I did get.
    I did get duns in two more cities too, so almost all new grenadiers got very nice promotions (guerilla2, combat1+pinch at 4xp or guerila2+combat1+2+formation at 8xp, very nice. That I was slow to rifling did have it's merits!

    Didn't look very closely at that position where I put the game on hold yesterday (Playing the NC Stalin now!), so not 100% sure about what I say now.

    Isn't it just ragnars personal attitude toward me+Sally which is important? What his vassals thinks of me I thought was irrelevant.
    But yes, just keeping him at friendly toward me and Sally will likely be impossible so he might come after me at some time anyway.

    There is no onshore oil on my island. Sally has one source, nothing at gilgas place.
    Forgot to check at Joaos island if I got any there, but I was abit worried about the lack of oil.
    And even with oil... I'm not sure I have any shot at going head to head with rangar when it comes to units, even if I would catch him at rough parity.
    Tanks vs a ragnar-stack of mechinfs I don't think would work out.
    For warfare, I think that I probably have to get nukes, but I'm not sure I can get there quick enough. Hard to judge the pace before Joaos cities come online.

    I do have Sistine (Uruk), and my mainland do have some cities that are dense with towns by now, so that might be worth considering too.
    I have alot of different religions, but they are spread out, but with rushbuy I might be able to get temples/cathedrals in time? Don't have much experience with lategame culture attempts.
    I don't think racing Ragnar to space would work, but I'm not entierly sure it would fail either. They do such weird stuff later.

    I do have a GEng ready and a GMerch is about 95% done in that dual-fish city iirc.
    GEng for ironworks somewhere to have a chance to build manhattan in a reasonable timeframe?

  7. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Feb 9, 2010
    Cantaloupe Island
    I've tried my hand at this Boudica map... Everything goes so slow, how do you go about it ?
    I only have 2 cities at 1000 BC, just got Bronze Working.I am a little worried about the future.
    Spoiler :
  8. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Aug 25, 2011
    Spoiler :

    I think that is a extremly good way to play this map.
    I take it that you settled on the wine, and worked a unimproved wine to secure buddhism? Did you see anything in demographics that would justify this move?
    Can you construct some T0 justification for that play, or is it only justifed if knowing from T0 that it's iso?

    If you just manage to get your hands on Taoism too, you a set of 3 religions which all have their cathedral that can be built with copper, really nice!

  9. BornInCantaloup

    BornInCantaloup Agent of Chaos

    Feb 9, 2010
    Cantaloupe Island
    Sure thing, this is with full map knowledge. Just toying around to do something different ^^
    Spoiler :
    Indeed, it took 20 turns to train the first worker (hum... a little less, since I swapped to a forest after Buddhism was done). Oracle was done in 1320 BC. Next, research goes Alpha, Maths to unlock the Philo bulb.
    But before that, I go to 5 cities, train some workers (1 worker at 1000 BC) and get granaries.

    And if this is good, it certainly is a testament to how bad this map really is.
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2020
    krikav likes this.
  10. Pedro78

    Pedro78 King

    Oct 20, 2016
    Spoiler about your saves :

    • I don't really like SIP (not bad per se, but settling on the wine is superior, especially without map knowledge), but Ag-AH was dubious. AH-mining into a fast Settler would have been better.
    • The Wheel before Mining is horrible. That PH-mine is essential.
    • I kinda like your fogbusters' positions, but you maybe could've kept it close-packed and built a Settler at size 3 (not 100% sure about the timing).
    • Still not building the PH-mine? The road won't let you settle your first city any quicker and production is currently your main bottleneck (by far)
    • You went for BW before Pottery, which is good.
    • 2nd city comes really late due to all the above.
    • Still building useless roads instead of the essential PH-mine.
    • At this point, another Warrior around Vienne would probably be in order if you want to play this safe.
    • I think there are several ways to play the opening turns, namely keep the capital at size 3, working the PH-mine and chopping everything (very straightforward, AH-mining-Wheel-BW) OR going for early agriculture (probably AH-mining-Ag-BW), taking advantage of those winefarms and whipping stuff. Getting both Agri and TW is definitely a mistake.
    • The main reason why settling on the wine is superior is that it allows AH-mining-BW, which makes for a very fast start (it may make dealing with barbs a little bit trickier, but with agg warriors it should be fine)
    • Not much has changed compared to T43. I don't like the FP-road at first glance, but since you now have both BW and good food surplus there isn't much use for the PH-mine anymore, so it's fine
    • Now you probably want to chop 1NE of Bibracte and 2whip the settler
    • Hammers into the monument in Vienna are fine on T48, considering the barb situation. However I don't think it was a good decision when you started on it on T43: an extra warrior might have been useful, and starting on a warrior, then whipping a worker into it at size 2 is quite efficient.
    • Double-chop in Bibracte? No whipping the Settler? You are already close to writing, but have only 2 cities and are still emphasizing commerce over production. This is inefficient.
    • Building an extra worker: good
    • Chopping instead of improving Vienna's copper: horrible
    • Reasonable timing to improve the sheep in city3: good
    • Not whipping bibracte: bad
    • Not doing anything in Vienna: bad
    • Going for Fishing before Pottery: seemingly a good move, but it mostly reflects that the overall timing of your opening is bad. The fact that you don't need Pottery immediately shows that you haven't emphasized production enough from the beginning.
    • Actually, Fishing before Pottery is bad, now that I think of it. Because early(ish) Pottery allows to whip a granary in Bibracte and start whipping a bunch of stuff there, further allowing to stop chopping this area and start doing other useful stuff (i.e. the copper mine, chopping in the East, but also cottages). This also saves some forests, allowing to chop a settler (for city #5 or #6, depending on the timing) in Bibracte once you've reached happy cap and are running scientists.
    • Copper still not improved. That's a huge loss in terms of production.
    • The chop in Tolosa seems fine, as long as you manage to optimally whip the Granary 3-2
    • Whipping the Monument in Vienne is terrible. Not needed at all and you need Workers and Settlers. I'd probably also skip the granary there for a while, just work Oasis + Cottage + Copper and use it as a worker/settler farm.
    • You still aren't whipping in Bibracte, which should be done at least once.
    • Writing is in, but no city is anywhere near ready to build a Library and start running scientists.
    • You're putting hammers in barracks in Vienne and in a monument in Tolosa, instead of a library in both
    • Both of Gergovia's forests should be chopped to speed up development. Building Tolosa's cottage first wasn't good. Tolosa's remaining 2 forests should probably be kept for health purposes (and you won't have much to chop there anyway).
    • 4 workers is too little. You're approaching a phase where you want to grow every city to size 6-7 and have at least 4 good tiles to work for each of them. You're also going to build a couple more cities around the time you reach Monarchy, but by then you'll need even more improved tiles for your main cities to work. So you probably need one more worker right now, soon followed by another.
    • The main idea behind all this criticism is that you want to uniformise the development between your main cities so you can deal with milestones (writing, monarchy) more efficiently (adopting HR is of little help if you only have one or 2 cities close to happy cap; reaching writing is pointless if your cities can't start building libraries and running scientists). I'm also assuming that, on a map like this one, you want 2 scientists for Astro and 2 more for later bulbing/possible academy. You may only want 3 and have an easier development, but getting that 4th guy isn't that much of a burden and it can be a huge asset in the middlegame.
    • You seem to be doing fine considering your T70 position. However...
    • Gergovia looks a bit funny at size 2 (it'll take a while before it contributes).
    • No 5th city in sight yet
    • Scouting is terrible. You haven't revealed the southern fish. As soon as the barbs are dealt with, you should aim to reveal every possible land and sea tile to both find new potential city spots and possible connections with other islands (both of which can be game-changing).
    • Even though your cities are underdeveloped, your 4 workers are struggling to improve the land fast enough (not repeating myself, just emphasizing the fact that you need to build more workers fairly early on)
    • From now on, the game is fairly straightforward. Most insufficiencies at T79 are direct consequences of earlier inaccuracies.
    • Again, a good continuation from your T79 position, but...
    • At this point, you want 2 more cities (not sure if you knew about the southern fish at this point, or if you were deliberately not scouting anything). The next 2 cities bring +2 health everywhere (extremely important) as well as some extra mid-game commerce and production. Your worker count is fine for 4 cities at health cap, but you would ideally have six cities and grow every one of them 2-3 extra pop in the next ~10T. So you're missing out on a lot of development there.

    While this is all pretty basic stuff, it's easier to come up with when you analyze a map you've already played than when you're actually playing a new game. Your play here is still quite decent and all the harsh criticism above is pointed at a few inaccuracies that snowball into playing an o.k. game instead of a great one. Identifying these small mistakes and not repeating them allows you to improve as a player. I've currently just reinstalled Civ4 and am trying to find an efficient way to improve my gameplay. Maybe taking a save every 4 turns and then analyzing every single one of them is a good place to start.

    Anyways, happy reading ;)
    gavenkoa and krikav like this.
  11. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

    Aug 25, 2011
    Thanks alot @Pedro78 !
    I will go through the saves, looking at what you have written.

    Oh, the comments around scouting, I had already seen Rustens screenshots (can't remember when) and more or less tried to mimic most of that play, so I already knew what was on the island by that point.
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020

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