Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

Alright, let's start a new game in the meantime, it's been a while :). Leader is Hannibal and FIN/CHA provides an excellent combination for isolation.

Here is the start:



Capital is looking juicy aswell, so I hope that encourages a few people to try their luck here. It's your golden opportunity, because next time we might enter the abyss with Tokugawa and a tundra start.

I will record this again and try my best to win this time. Need a break from playing Pangaea maps for a bit :D. Feel free to share your thoughts and progress here.

@krikav : I recommend playing this one too when you get the time. Why? Instead of facing runaways, this time you get to be the runaway ;). This is a mids iso map if I ever saw one.

Spoiler :


This is probably the 2nd juiciest iso start that anyone has ever rolled, next to the LHC Victoria map with space for 15 cities and triple gold with 4 rivers. I decided to give it a spin and...150BC optics, 200bpt before t110, and am looking at maybe BC astro if I'm lucky, as my GS#2 is coming out in 3 turns. At this point I think I can just go ahead and win lib before crushing everyone on the other continent(s) with cuirs...

(Note: I deliberately built the mids in Hadrumetum so that it could easily get 2 border pops, allowing it to get the clam and then Kerkouane to get the 2nd ring fish without having any other culture building in either city. Also my cap had better things to do, like growing cottages and pumping out settlers/workers, as well as getting granary/library up. So I delegated the task to another city with more forests, more mines, and no cottages to grow.)

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A settled great scientist produces 6 beakers and 1 hammer, and consumes no food. Academy (+50% RR) with Palace (8 commerce) is worth, well, hard to tell, depends on your research rate, but lets say research rate is 50%, so 2 beakers. You'd either need 2 scientists running in capital or have two cottages at 3 commerce and it still wouldn't match 6 BPT 1 hammer from the settled great scientist, and they also cost 2 pop and 4 food to maintain, perhaps 2 pop 2 food if floodplains are in play.

So is 2 pop and 4 food maintenance better than a settled great scientist? I don't think so for a philo leader, except if you have an abundance of food in capital (like a 2-3 fish start).
 
Spoilers for the Hannibal map:

Spoiler :

t114 astro, how about that! I think it's the first time I've ever gotten astro in the BCs, and on deity no less. Meanwhile all the other civs are way behind, with some missing even key techs like currency. Kublai is warring Hammy but without catapults I don't really think he'll get anywhere vs bowmen. Traded for alpha and half of calendar for metal casting, of all things, with Monty (one of the only people who didn't have it). I think I can actually roll over the entire other continent with cuirs at this rate...

Fast forward to t152 and I have all cuir techs. Already whipped 3 galleons; a good rule of thumb is you need 8 galleons' worth of units to launch a decent intercontinental invasion on deity iso. Montezuma will be my first target - for all his cities, that poor fellow doesn't even have CS or guilds or engineering. Meanwhile I popped a GE as my #3 GP which was disappointing until I realized I could use him to rush Taj, switch to caste, and crank out a GS before switching back to slavery and free religion. So...free golden age and edu bulb (that I originally wanted a GS for) on top of denying a dangerously powerful wonder to the wonderspammer and tech leader? Sounds like a pretty good deal.

Built HE in the grass sheep riverless city, since grass farms are definitely the tiles that are the most expendable and best to whip away. Ready to put the hurt on all of those other fellows. Speaking of which...I'm really glad there were no runaways on this map. It's the first iso map I've played where some AI didn't get insanely lucky and, say, capture 2 barb cities allowing him to completely swallow up another civ (Kublai in @Lain 's game), or settle half the map while other AIs engage in pre-catapult catfights (my Izzy iso which was a hard-fought win). Instead, I'm the runaway this time - with 2nd-3rd highest bpt and a tech lead of nationalism, education, lib, MT, and soon economics on the next most advanced AI, I feel pretty comfortable with my position :).

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More spoilers and t181 update:

Spoiler :

Kublai and Monty both have stacks of 40-50 units. I was kinda wondering how I'd get enough cuirs to take them on, but then a diplomatic miracle happened.

Around 800AD, De Gaulle declared war on Sitting Bull. Then the Frenchman bribed Kublai to war Sitting Bull. But SB was the AP resident, and since Kublai didn't have the AP religion, SB called and passed a resolution for everyone to declare on Kublai after a resolution for all AP members to make peace with him. So now Monty and Kublai started wailing against each other, and Monty parked his main stack outside Kublai's stack and spent a dozen turns plinking away at reinforcements.

Meanwhile, I used Monty's territory to strike at Kublai's heartland, hoping to cap him with enough damage. But then, just as I took Kublai's first city (a border one between Monty and Kublai), Monty declared war on me :eek:! It turns out he had been plotting to DOW me for quite some time now (not Kublai or SB or Hammy as I thought) but didn't have a way to reach me. But now that I had a city on that continent (or rather, took it), he suddenly had the means to reach me, and so declared despite already being in war.

That was perhaps the biggest mistake he ever made. My cuir army, barely damaged, halfway upgraded to cavs that same turn and turn around, marching straight into his core cities and capital, since those were really close to where I entered Kublai's territory. In 10 turns I took 10 cities with only token resistance, killing 75+ units and losing 7. Meanwhile his stack was still stuck outside Kublai's city doing...something, I guess. Well, as a spy uncovered, not much. Yeah, sure, just let your empire burn while you go on a camping trip, that's great strategy right there :crazyeye:. After slaughtering half of it with cavs he capped.

I'm now at 21 cities - basically the dominant power on this map, akin to Kublai in a similar date at Lain's game. I'm also first to communism, so GAs galore, and SP switch has once again made me be able to tech competitively. I have a lead over all civs but De Gaulle. Unfortunately the prick Izzy teched rifling and gave it away to SB. I've never seen an AI ignore pretty much the whole Renaissance to get bloody rifling, just to spite me. So you're gonna force me to use cannons and artillery, huh? Well, so be it.

Once again - feels good to be the runaway :king:.

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Especially fun to see that you are an AP pr0 now!

Spoiler :

Nah...not a pro, didn't really plan for this...but in hindsight, I could've! I think the AI will almost always vote to try to get themselves out of a war if they can, and if they can't (enemy is an infidel/not part of AP) then they'll almost always propose a vote to dogpile their opposition. So I could've anticipated things like this and left less to chance (by bribing Kublai onto SB myself, for instance). As it turns out though I had to mastermind very little for things to turn out like this.

Monty's blunder:

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It was at this moment that he knew...

And here's the t181 tech situation. Kublai is kinda falling to pieces but he should only cap to the person who destroys his main stack...so me, in all likelihood.

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The Hannibal finale:

Spoiler :


t199 cavalry blitz dom victory :eek: !!!

Pretty sure this is some sort of world record for deity iso or something :banana:. I'll admit, I didn't expect to be able to win nearly this fast but I got extremely lucky in how the diplo turned out, and what techs the AIs researched. Most of my victims stayed well away from rifling, the most dangerous military AIs were in constant conflict with each other due to AP and being landtargets, nobody got too much land, and virtually every AI was in a state of war one way or another for the last 50 turns of the game, enabling me to roll over them one by one.

After capping Monty I deliberated what to do next, and then decided on warring Hammy who was a squishy target closer to rifles than Kublai. After capping him and encountering virtually no resistance, I discovered that his army was out and healing in one of the cities he recently took from Kublai. But here's the thing...after capturing that city, I think French culture swallowed it. And since I don't think he had OB with De Gaulle...he essentially put his entire army out of commission by going after Kublai! Like Monty did, but even worse, since they were literally trapped. Or perhaps he was still healing and didn't recover in time to protect their homeland? Either way, doesn't matter - that's another civ that didn't get to use their stack against me, at all.

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Afterwards I kind of felt sorry for him and I decided to try to "liberate" his forces...by turning my attention to De Gaulle. He was moderately far from rifling (no RP yet, thank goodness) and quite a ways from infantry. No grens, no cuirs, nothing but musketeers, despite being the BPT leader for almost the entire game! So I marched into his territory, and it seemed that he didn't have much of a stack either? Ohhhh...Kublai. Right. His entire army was, similar to pretty much every other army, holed up near Karakorum trying to besiege it. Whether he would've succeeded or not we'll never know, because I took 2 of his cities, and...uh...he wants to give in already? When he could've easily killed a dozen more cavs with hilltop muskets? Oh, right, this explains everything! De Gaulle has a resist capitulation rating of 0/10, so like Mansa, you can sneeze on him and he'll blow over real quick. It's sorta a shame the devs bought into the stereotype of Frenchmen as cheese-eating surrender monkeys because historically, CDG resisted capitulation pretty darn well in WWII, leading the French resistance against the Nazis. But I guess I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Now it was finally time to turn to Kublai. I took 2 cities and he capped...he only recently got gunpowder and didn't even have astro or education yet. I think he realized he wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight against me while attacked from all sides and wisely gave in.

Isabella gave me the most trouble but after De Gaulle...it turns out that with 5 cities she somehow spammed 50 or so rifles and was using those to thrash Kublai around with moderately more success than all the other rifle-less civs (she took a city and then Kublai took it back the turn after right before capping). But after I capped him, she was marching her armies back to her cities when I saw an opportunity present itself...I realized that if I declared, all her units en route to Seville would be kicked out to one place where I could massacre them without defense or fortify bonuses. So I did exactly that...losing 3-4 cavs to kill almost 20 units. Worth it, in my book.

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It turned out she had another 20 units in that city, which I guess was only surprising because it was the first time I actually had to face an army in this entire game. I had an idea tho...I asked De Gaulle to march his army there and he dutifully complied, where they bombarded down the city defenses and then all ran into a storm of bullets and died horribly, dealing only a little damage. That little damage and no defenses was all I needed to take the city with only another 4-5 losses, and also with airship support as I now had physics. After taking another city (on a hill, without siege support, and significantly more painful, losing me 6 units despite only facing 3 rilfles and a gren), she capped. And on the turn after, I won domination.

I cannot stress how lucky I was this game. Only 2 civs went for rifles and the other 4 rivals didn't even make it to replaceable parts (I traded them rifling eventually), either because they were so behind or because they were drawn to the physics bait after I pawned scientific method (though part of it is only one AI in the game really having a military flavor, SB). Most importantly, I only had to face ONE stack of doom in all the wars I fought, because every single time the enemy AI was off beating off on Kublai. And even then, against Izzy, I had De Gaulle to soak up the damage. If not for that AP resolution I would've needed 5-10 more turns to take on every civ. People might've gotten infantry at that point, especially De Gaulle with his 2 golds and every-tile-an-FP HoF-worthy cap, and Hammy with his 3 gold and almost as juicy Babylon. But as it turns out, one fateful call to war against what might've been the strongest AI in another timeline enabled me to completely devastate 4 civs with little to no resistance, and overwhelm a 5th with sheer numbers. At this stage in most iso games, almost everyone would've already gotten AL, and someone would've probably been already at plastics and radio. But not this game - and that's a welcome change and a relief, for once! It feels good to be the runaway :cool:.

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I think I'll take a break from iso for now. I don't think this date can be beat with normal settings, to be honest...the stars aligned far too perfectly for anything better to happen, anything would feel just slow and clumsy compared to this, and I'm kind of tired of self-imposed loneliness, even in a video game. But man...what a great start and awesome map this was. To start isolated and end up steamrolling ahead of everyone else isn't something that's possible every time. But I pulled it off, with the help of the all-powerful game-changing AP (which I've become increasingly amiable to) and cooperative AIs, and got a win date faster than any I've ever done on these sorts of maps, or perhaps ever will do. Situations like these is why this 13 year old game is worth playing even after I've already spent 1300 hours at it.

~fin
 

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Spoiler :

One more screenie of the completely screwed-up diplo at one point in the game. Notice the multiple 3-way wars and 30-turn Kublai dogpile...

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I played the toku map, but it feels to cheesy to continue this as I got to a great position partly due to map knowledge.
Spoiler :

I neglected the advice from @Fippy to settle a city to take advantage of both corn+pigs, and instead went for a 3 city layout while building pyramids.
Went agri->mining->AH->Masonry->BW->Pottery and built a barracks first. Barbs where no problem as I just sent my first warrior to the tundra hill next to the copper. (map knowledge)
I was not too keen on grabbing the gold/sheep spot. I really dislike gold due to their -2F and I always feel like the city is cursed when there is gold in it's bfc.
I settled to get the silver just as a resource in that citys third ring. The faraway fish was a mistake to settle pre-optics as it didn't have time to contribute.
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1AD. I got a GEng 2 turns later and bulbed optics.
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Met Charly+Brennus first and had a tradefest with them (they where lacking MC and compass). Brennus was a vassal and I didn't care about "we find you are becomming too advanced" with him. And charly is almost as trade willing as mansa, those issues are seldom a problem with him.
I have just met the last AI, Hannibal.
Shaka and Ramesses is on their own island and far behind in tech, and this feels like LHC81-pericles all over again where ragnar+sb was in a similar stalemate and was easy pickings.
Only problem in this game is bad GPP management, building academy and then getting a GEng.
I also had problems with my 3 city layout, as this trio felt abit food starved (believe it or not, with wet corn and pigs... Must be that cursed gold!!) so an astro bulb will come late. One option is to simply go for lib and get astro that way.
There might be some problems with keeping Kublai from getting to big if he decides to pick on Hanibal, but due to religion I think that Charly will have a few things to say in objection to Khan getting out of control, and he has Brennus as a meat shield too.
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No activity here for almost a year?!
Bumping this with a VERY dissapointed Shaka. Noone around to go impi on! :'(

Spoiler Starting screenshot :


Looks like a decent capital, no?
How hard can it be? :)

Have fun! <3
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(Attached save buffy5.)
 

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@Lains latest youtube game with Mao made me do a re-try of the map in this thread again.
It's still horrible. >_<
 
One screenshot and a bunch of saves :)
Spoiler :

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@Pedro78 Not sure if you are around, you seem to come and go abit sporadically. :)
But your post helped me alot. And I think this is kind of a nice practice map for others who want to take on deity isolation.

Spoiler :


I played it blind first, then compared to your result and the differance was staggering, your T54 position is impressive.
I didn't lag behind much more from that point on, but the early gains seem to have snowballed.

When I replayed and tried to mimic (almost) what you did up to that point I got way better results.
I did do a small alteration from there though, going for sailing before writing, and settled 6 cities instead of 5, (with one offshore island the 6th city is less expensive).
I'm more behind in GPgeneration but tried to prioritize maturing the capitals cottages instead.
Settled second scientist and thats likely a mistake but I thought I had time to get more in time being Phi.
Oh, and I'm behind two turns on optics too.

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I see that you write later on that this must be one of the easiest iso maps in this thread. Now I haven't played them all, but I found the rest here kind of tricky, but that might have been in just my game...
The entire mainland got into a hindu lovefest with isolated pacal grabbing all religions for himself. Sury running away in tech with his overpowered shrine, and Hannibal had Toku as a peace vassal and had alot of land.
Even pacal blazed away quite abit as he had so much land (and he is usually a good techer).
Only Mehmed was a juicy target really when I was ready to DoW.
With his land and a large army I think it would be very much winable from that point on, but I'm not sure it would be easy. :)

Do you (or anyone else?) see some glaring errors in my play from T118 to T187 in the military buildup that could be improved on significantly?
 

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Hi Krikav,
Don't have Civ installed right now (will get back to it soon enough), so can't look at the save, but a few comments:
Spoiler :

I remember this game (though not in great detail). Looking at the T118 screenshots, I don't really like either of our positions. Should probably have the mids; 9-10 cities and close to 70pop at this point (and a bit behind in tech of course, but at 250bpt it doesn't matter). But back when I played this map, I was focused on winning in the worst possible conditions (which was a bit laughable with this type of land).

Not sure where you're at regarding GP generation, but on this map I had enough GS to bulb GP + 2*Chem, which is a huge deal on the way to Steel. Should have led to a pre-160 DoW if I could trade for Guilds & Engi (which seems very likely looking at your description of the tech situation). Not sure what you did wrong there (I'll try to look into it when I reinstall Civ), but T187 seems horribly late, even if you had Rifles by then.

Also, even though my posts in this thread are a good reflection of my learning process, they contain a lot of inaccurate stuff after T50, partly because I had the bad habit of trying to find general rules for everything.

If you're looking for games to play that will provide a good learning experience, I'd suggest you dig through some older threads by Rusten & Shakabrade (was pretty insightful for me back then).
 
@Pedro78

mids, 9 cities and 70pop? Thats a tall order! :D

Spoiler Pyramids + Development try :


I'm not 100% sure that pyramids are the right way to go on this map. I know @Rusten chipped in and thought it was obvious.
But there was a Stalin map with faraway stone too, and I think pyramids made more sense on that map tbh.
Here with alex there is no shame crusing with pop6+pop5 cities (health cap is crippling anyway) since we can run phi-scientists.
But anyway... I did a pyramids try.
Grew to pop5 with capital first and settled a close by helper to hold the food while capital built stuff.
Had 5 workers here and the sixth is whipped in Corinth in time to improve pigs after borderpop.
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AH->min->BW->TW->Myst->Mason->Agri->Pot->Sail->Writing.
Agri before pot because to grow cities fast enough (makes sense with the worker army from pyramids chopping, can afford to farm and replace with cottages).
Sail before writing because with that offshore island sailing is almost as good as currency and there isn't much production to spare for libraries due to pyramids and the rapid expansion.
Pyramids, 9 cities, 53 pop but no 250 bpt, also GPGeneration is completely off, having settled one GEng already and have not spawned any GSci.
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Maybe this approach is better, but it isn't at all obvious to me.
And also I'm quite sure I have screwed up alot of micro and made some faulty priorities.

 

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@krikav
Spoiler :

Nice experimentation, you really put in the effort (and you seem to have made a lot of progress in the past couple of years).

I hadn't taken the health cap into account when I stated 70pop. The ideal pop count by 1AD should be around 60.

Still don't have Civ installed, so can't open your saves and see exactly how you played, but here are a few things I had in mind for this map:

  • Build mids, then settle 10 cities & grow to health cap right away. Not sure about the timeline here, but 10 cities + mids by T90 seems reasonable.
  • Stay in slavery throughout, don't bother with CoL, just library + 2 scientists everywhere
  • 1 settled GS / GE + Academy in Athens (if GP #2 is also a GE, then settle him too, with PHI it's no big deal)
  • Go for Alpha right after Sailing, then IW-Compass (Harbor in Athens will pay off nicely). Then MC-Mach-Optics.
  • There's plenty of good tiles available + rep scientists + build research
With the right priorities and good micro, ~230bpt at 0% slider (with some commerce to spare) around T115-120 doesn't seem unrealistic. And that's a really strong setup for the post-Optics phase.

But the main thing really is to expand like crazy as soons as the Mids are secure (you should probably have 10 cities before the first library). With all these good tiles, a few cottages should allow you to break even at 0%.

By the way I like the fact that you had 5 workers fairly early (on this kind of map, you can hardly overbuild workers), and I don't like Corinth's placement (if you're not gonna get the pigs, why not settle on the stone?)

Maybe I'm a bit optimistic and what I describe as T115-120 is more like T125. Either way it's probably an ideal setup for this map, gives you a lot more flexibility than skipping the mids and getting 1AD Optics.
 
Thanks for feedback @Pedro78

Spoiler :


I really like the approach to just expand like crazy. New cities cost ofcourse, but if they have a return on investment 30 turns after settlement, it makes sense to settle them as quickly as possible.
Was really impressed by what Rusten showed on that imfamous Mao-map, and that "I don't care what the AIs are doing, I'm just going to develop here." attitude I start to suspect can be expanded into quite a few more maps really.

Regarding Corinth, yes I thought abit about that.
I grew to pop5 quickly because I thought that was reasonable as there would not be time to grow for a long time after the first growth spurt.
Sparta was settled first to not let all the good growth potential from pigs/clam go to waste while Athens built settlers/workers.
Then there was time to claim stone. And since T68 pyramids are also quite risky there was simply no time for workers to improve a pig by then. Just quarry and then back to chop. The monument was easily done as workers chopped in during transit time (moving to stone, and then moving back to Athens for chops).
One could absolutely argue for settlement on stone as that saves a truckload of workerturns early on, but settlement this way gives me 4 cities with freshwater and Corinth is one of the "big five" from rep.

I reckon that you approve of teching agriculture before pottery, and sailing before writing to, from your statement.
"But the main thing really is to expand like crazy as soon as the Mids are secure (you should probably have 10 cities before the first library).".

 
@krikav
Spoiler :

Sailing before writing: absolutely, libraries will come quite late anyway.

Agriculture before Pottery? No way. On this map, agriculture would probably come after Optics. No time for farms on a map like this, and Agriculture will delay Writing / Sailing / Alpha.
 
@Pedro78
Spoiler :

You think?
I imagine that it makes a whole lot of sense to farm almost everything and replace with cottages only when population is saturated (and likely only capital tiles then too.)
It helps grow and expand much faster, recovering from whips easier.

I guess you have to install civ and show how it's done. ;)

Will make another attempt where I ignore teching for longer and continue to expand instead myself.
 
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