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Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Lain, Mar 26, 2017.

  1. Rusten

    Rusten Deity

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    Settling is nearly always a bad idea, but isolation games are longer by nature so it has more time to pay back. Lightbulbing mathematics to rush currency can be considered, but outside of that there's nothing productive to do with it other than settling. There's no clear commerce city on this map and the science slider is expected to be low so an academy does very little in comparison. The settled scientist will retain its full value when you are nearly broke at 0% science in the turns leading up to currency.
     
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  2. Zelus

    Zelus Chieftain

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    That... does make a lot of sense ! Thank you

    Another case of "don't take anything for granted in this game"
     
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  3. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Spoiler :

    Big necro but I'm having a go at this map. In the mood for a somewhat easier iso (hopefully). With gold and mids...maybe I can be the runaway this time instead of some 16-city Justinian or HC with a vassal.

    t75: 5 cities at 1000BC, mids almost in. Worker turns were the main bottleneck here, so I decided to spam 4 of them relatively early on despite the unit costs. Barbs gave me a bit of trouble but luck was on my side and I ended up with a superwarrior, killer of archers - enough for heroic epic at level 4 already. No need for great wall, and IMO as long as you get mids by 1000BC-ish you should be fine.

    Screenshot (13394).png

    Screenshot (13395).png
     

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  4. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    @krikav - interested in giving this one a go as well? I tire of all the LHC isos with their crappy jungled in starts and barren wastelands; why not try a more hospitable start?
     
  5. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Thats the toku map, isn't it? I played it the first 50-100 turns or so 2-3 times. The island is really sweet.
    The path I took was that I played that one and thought "well, this is too easy", tried the boudica map and thought "well, this is way too hard" then I stumbled on the LHC boudica map instead.
    Can you provide a rather non-spoilery hint as to why it would be worth playing out? :)
     
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  6. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    It's t120, I have optics, and close to 10 great generals have spawned :).
     
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  7. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Undefeatable
    Spoiler :

    It sounds fun, but I have two games I want to pay attention to first.
    @Pedro78 posted a nice game with Stail which I will have another go at as a shadow to keep him company.
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/all-about-mistakes-deity-fractal.641203/

    Then I really want to pay attention to the BTOM game, it's not that common that they are set on deity difficulty. And Pericles that starts with ivory? Well thats a chance in a lifetime. :)
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/news-botm-168-pericles-deity-starts-18-jan.640805/
     
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  8. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    @krikav : I recommend playing this one too when you get the time. Why? Instead of facing runaways, this time you get to be the runaway ;). This is a mids iso map if I ever saw one.

    Spoiler :


    This is probably the 2nd juiciest iso start that anyone has ever rolled, next to the LHC Victoria map with space for 15 cities and triple gold with 4 rivers. I decided to give it a spin and...150BC optics, 200bpt before t110, and am looking at maybe BC astro if I'm lucky, as my GS#2 is coming out in 3 turns. At this point I think I can just go ahead and win lib before crushing everyone on the other continent(s) with cuirs...

    (Note: I deliberately built the mids in Hadrumetum so that it could easily get 2 border pops, allowing it to get the clam and then Kerkouane to get the 2nd ring fish without having any other culture building in either city. Also my cap had better things to do, like growing cottages and pumping out settlers/workers, as well as getting granary/library up. So I delegated the task to another city with more forests, more mines, and no cottages to grow.)

    Screenshot (13421).png

     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  9. Bibor

    Bibor Doomsday Machine

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    A settled great scientist produces 6 beakers and 1 hammer, and consumes no food. Academy (+50% RR) with Palace (8 commerce) is worth, well, hard to tell, depends on your research rate, but lets say research rate is 50%, so 2 beakers. You'd either need 2 scientists running in capital or have two cottages at 3 commerce and it still wouldn't match 6 BPT 1 hammer from the settled great scientist, and they also cost 2 pop and 4 food to maintain, perhaps 2 pop 2 food if floodplains are in play.

    So is 2 pop and 4 food maintenance better than a settled great scientist? I don't think so for a philo leader, except if you have an abundance of food in capital (like a 2-3 fish start).
     
  10. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Spoilers for the Hannibal map:

    Spoiler :

    t114 astro, how about that! I think it's the first time I've ever gotten astro in the BCs, and on deity no less. Meanwhile all the other civs are way behind, with some missing even key techs like currency. Kublai is warring Hammy but without catapults I don't really think he'll get anywhere vs bowmen. Traded for alpha and half of calendar for metal casting, of all things, with Monty (one of the only people who didn't have it). I think I can actually roll over the entire other continent with cuirs at this rate...

    Fast forward to t152 and I have all cuir techs. Already whipped 3 galleons; a good rule of thumb is you need 8 galleons' worth of units to launch a decent intercontinental invasion on deity iso. Montezuma will be my first target - for all his cities, that poor fellow doesn't even have CS or guilds or engineering. Meanwhile I popped a GE as my #3 GP which was disappointing until I realized I could use him to rush Taj, switch to caste, and crank out a GS before switching back to slavery and free religion. So...free golden age and edu bulb (that I originally wanted a GS for) on top of denying a dangerously powerful wonder to the wonderspammer and tech leader? Sounds like a pretty good deal.

    Built HE in the grass sheep riverless city, since grass farms are definitely the tiles that are the most expendable and best to whip away. Ready to put the hurt on all of those other fellows. Speaking of which...I'm really glad there were no runaways on this map. It's the first iso map I've played where some AI didn't get insanely lucky and, say, capture 2 barb cities allowing him to completely swallow up another civ (Kublai in @Lain 's game), or settle half the map while other AIs engage in pre-catapult catfights (my Izzy iso which was a hard-fought win). Instead, I'm the runaway this time - with 2nd-3rd highest bpt and a tech lead of nationalism, education, lib, MT, and soon economics on the next most advanced AI, I feel pretty comfortable with my position :).

    Screenshot (13527).png

    Screenshot (13528).png

    Screenshot (13529).png
     
  11. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    More spoilers and t181 update:

    Spoiler :

    Kublai and Monty both have stacks of 40-50 units. I was kinda wondering how I'd get enough cuirs to take them on, but then a diplomatic miracle happened.

    Around 800AD, De Gaulle declared war on Sitting Bull. Then the Frenchman bribed Kublai to war Sitting Bull. But SB was the AP resident, and since Kublai didn't have the AP religion, SB called and passed a resolution for everyone to declare on Kublai after a resolution for all AP members to make peace with him. So now Monty and Kublai started wailing against each other, and Monty parked his main stack outside Kublai's stack and spent a dozen turns plinking away at reinforcements.

    Meanwhile, I used Monty's territory to strike at Kublai's heartland, hoping to cap him with enough damage. But then, just as I took Kublai's first city (a border one between Monty and Kublai), Monty declared war on me :eek:! It turns out he had been plotting to DOW me for quite some time now (not Kublai or SB or Hammy as I thought) but didn't have a way to reach me. But now that I had a city on that continent (or rather, took it), he suddenly had the means to reach me, and so declared despite already being in war.

    That was perhaps the biggest mistake he ever made. My cuir army, barely damaged, halfway upgraded to cavs that same turn and turn around, marching straight into his core cities and capital, since those were really close to where I entered Kublai's territory. In 10 turns I took 10 cities with only token resistance, killing 75+ units and losing 7. Meanwhile his stack was still stuck outside Kublai's city doing...something, I guess. Well, as a spy uncovered, not much. Yeah, sure, just let your empire burn while you go on a camping trip, that's great strategy right there :crazyeye:. After slaughtering half of it with cavs he capped.

    I'm now at 21 cities - basically the dominant power on this map, akin to Kublai in a similar date at Lain's game. I'm also first to communism, so GAs galore, and SP switch has once again made me be able to tech competitively. I have a lead over all civs but De Gaulle. Unfortunately the prick Izzy teched rifling and gave it away to SB. I've never seen an AI ignore pretty much the whole Renaissance to get bloody rifling, just to spite me. So you're gonna force me to use cannons and artillery, huh? Well, so be it.

    Once again - feels good to be the runaway :king:.

    Screenshot (13587).png
     
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  12. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Especially fun to see that you are an AP pr0 now!
     
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  13. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Spoiler :

    Nah...not a pro, didn't really plan for this...but in hindsight, I could've! I think the AI will almost always vote to try to get themselves out of a war if they can, and if they can't (enemy is an infidel/not part of AP) then they'll almost always propose a vote to dogpile their opposition. So I could've anticipated things like this and left less to chance (by bribing Kublai onto SB myself, for instance). As it turns out though I had to mastermind very little for things to turn out like this.

    Monty's blunder:

    Screenshot (13606).png

    Screenshot (13599).png

    It was at this moment that he knew...

    And here's the t181 tech situation. Kublai is kinda falling to pieces but he should only cap to the person who destroys his main stack...so me, in all likelihood.

    Screenshot (13600).png
     
  14. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    The Hannibal finale:

    Spoiler :


    t199 cavalry blitz dom victory :eek: !!!

    Pretty sure this is some sort of world record for deity iso or something :banana:. I'll admit, I didn't expect to be able to win nearly this fast but I got extremely lucky in how the diplo turned out, and what techs the AIs researched. Most of my victims stayed well away from rifling, the most dangerous military AIs were in constant conflict with each other due to AP and being landtargets, nobody got too much land, and virtually every AI was in a state of war one way or another for the last 50 turns of the game, enabling me to roll over them one by one.

    After capping Monty I deliberated what to do next, and then decided on warring Hammy who was a squishy target closer to rifles than Kublai. After capping him and encountering virtually no resistance, I discovered that his army was out and healing in one of the cities he recently took from Kublai. But here's the thing...after capturing that city, I think French culture swallowed it. And since I don't think he had OB with De Gaulle...he essentially put his entire army out of commission by going after Kublai! Like Monty did, but even worse, since they were literally trapped. Or perhaps he was still healing and didn't recover in time to protect their homeland? Either way, doesn't matter - that's another civ that didn't get to use their stack against me, at all.

    Screenshot (13614).png

    Afterwards I kind of felt sorry for him and I decided to try to "liberate" his forces...by turning my attention to De Gaulle. He was moderately far from rifling (no RP yet, thank goodness) and quite a ways from infantry. No grens, no cuirs, nothing but musketeers, despite being the BPT leader for almost the entire game! So I marched into his territory, and it seemed that he didn't have much of a stack either? Ohhhh...Kublai. Right. His entire army was, similar to pretty much every other army, holed up near Karakorum trying to besiege it. Whether he would've succeeded or not we'll never know, because I took 2 of his cities, and...uh...he wants to give in already? When he could've easily killed a dozen more cavs with hilltop muskets? Oh, right, this explains everything! De Gaulle has a resist capitulation rating of 0/10, so like Mansa, you can sneeze on him and he'll blow over real quick. It's sorta a shame the devs bought into the stereotype of Frenchmen as cheese-eating surrender monkeys because historically, CDG resisted capitulation pretty darn well in WWII, leading the French resistance against the Nazis. But I guess I shouldn't look a gift horse in the mouth.

    Now it was finally time to turn to Kublai. I took 2 cities and he capped...he only recently got gunpowder and didn't even have astro or education yet. I think he realized he wouldn't have been able to put up much of a fight against me while attacked from all sides and wisely gave in.

    Isabella gave me the most trouble but after De Gaulle...it turns out that with 5 cities she somehow spammed 50 or so rifles and was using those to thrash Kublai around with moderately more success than all the other rifle-less civs (she took a city and then Kublai took it back the turn after right before capping). But after I capped him, she was marching her armies back to her cities when I saw an opportunity present itself...I realized that if I declared, all her units en route to Seville would be kicked out to one place where I could massacre them without defense or fortify bonuses. So I did exactly that...losing 3-4 cavs to kill almost 20 units. Worth it, in my book.

    Screenshot (13657).png

    It turned out she had another 20 units in that city, which I guess was only surprising because it was the first time I actually had to face an army in this entire game. I had an idea tho...I asked De Gaulle to march his army there and he dutifully complied, where they bombarded down the city defenses and then all ran into a storm of bullets and died horribly, dealing only a little damage. That little damage and no defenses was all I needed to take the city with only another 4-5 losses, and also with airship support as I now had physics. After taking another city (on a hill, without siege support, and significantly more painful, losing me 6 units despite only facing 3 rilfles and a gren), she capped. And on the turn after, I won domination.

    I cannot stress how lucky I was this game. Only 2 civs went for rifles and the other 4 rivals didn't even make it to replaceable parts (I traded them rifling eventually), either because they were so behind or because they were drawn to the physics bait after I pawned scientific method (though part of it is only one AI in the game really having a military flavor, SB). Most importantly, I only had to face ONE stack of doom in all the wars I fought, because every single time the enemy AI was off beating off on Kublai. And even then, against Izzy, I had De Gaulle to soak up the damage. If not for that AP resolution I would've needed 5-10 more turns to take on every civ. People might've gotten infantry at that point, especially De Gaulle with his 2 golds and every-tile-an-FP HoF-worthy cap, and Hammy with his 3 gold and almost as juicy Babylon. But as it turns out, one fateful call to war against what might've been the strongest AI in another timeline enabled me to completely devastate 4 civs with little to no resistance, and overwhelm a 5th with sheer numbers. At this stage in most iso games, almost everyone would've already gotten AL, and someone would've probably been already at plastics and radio. But not this game - and that's a welcome change and a relief, for once! It feels good to be the runaway :cool:.

    Screenshot (13659).png

    Screenshot (13654).png

    I think I'll take a break from iso for now. I don't think this date can be beat with normal settings, to be honest...the stars aligned far too perfectly for anything better to happen, anything would feel just slow and clumsy compared to this, and I'm kind of tired of self-imposed loneliness, even in a video game. But man...what a great start and awesome map this was. To start isolated and end up steamrolling ahead of everyone else isn't something that's possible every time. But I pulled it off, with the help of the all-powerful game-changing AP (which I've become increasingly amiable to) and cooperative AIs, and got a win date faster than any I've ever done on these sorts of maps, or perhaps ever will do. Situations like these is why this 13 year old game is worth playing even after I've already spent 1300 hours at it.

    ~fin
     

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    Last edited: Feb 3, 2019
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  15. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Spoiler :

    One more screenie of the completely screwed-up diplo at one point in the game. Notice the multiple 3-way wars and 30-turn Kublai dogpile...

    Screenshot (13681).png
     
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  16. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    Poor ol Kublai!
     
  17. Fish Man

    Fish Man Emperor

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    Eh, don't feel too bad. This is intertimeline karma for how unfairly well he did during @Lain 's game, where he swallowed Monty whole and proceeded to run away like crazy with 22 cities.
     
  18. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    I played the toku map, but it feels to cheesy to continue this as I got to a great position partly due to map knowledge.
    Spoiler :

    I neglected the advice from @Fippy to settle a city to take advantage of both corn+pigs, and instead went for a 3 city layout while building pyramids.
    Went agri->mining->AH->Masonry->BW->Pottery and built a barracks first. Barbs where no problem as I just sent my first warrior to the tundra hill next to the copper. (map knowledge)
    I was not too keen on grabbing the gold/sheep spot. I really dislike gold due to their -2F and I always feel like the city is cursed when there is gold in it's bfc.
    I settled to get the silver just as a resource in that citys third ring. The faraway fish was a mistake to settle pre-optics as it didn't have time to contribute.
    Civ4ScreenShot0002.JPG

    1AD. I got a GEng 2 turns later and bulbed optics.
    Civ4ScreenShot0009.JPG

    Met Charly+Brennus first and had a tradefest with them (they where lacking MC and compass). Brennus was a vassal and I didn't care about "we find you are becomming too advanced" with him. And charly is almost as trade willing as mansa, those issues are seldom a problem with him.
    I have just met the last AI, Hannibal.
    Shaka and Ramesses is on their own island and far behind in tech, and this feels like LHC81-pericles all over again where ragnar+sb was in a similar stalemate and was easy pickings.
    Only problem in this game is bad GPP management, building academy and then getting a GEng.
    I also had problems with my 3 city layout, as this trio felt abit food starved (believe it or not, with wet corn and pigs... Must be that cursed gold!!) so an astro bulb will come late. One option is to simply go for lib and get astro that way.
    There might be some problems with keeping Kublai from getting to big if he decides to pick on Hanibal, but due to religion I think that Charly will have a few things to say in objection to Khan getting out of control, and he has Brennus as a meat shield too.
    Civ4ScreenShot0015.JPG
     
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  19. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    No activity here for almost a year?!
    Bumping this with a VERY dissapointed Shaka. Noone around to go impi on! :'(

    Spoiler Starting screenshot :


    Looks like a decent capital, no?
    How hard can it be? :)

    Have fun! <3
    Civ4ScreenShot0006.JPG


    (Attached save buffy5.)
     

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  20. krikav

    krikav Theorycrafter

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    @Lains latest youtube game with Mao made me do a re-try of the map in this thread again.
    It's still horrible. >_<
     

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