Deity Isolation Workshop (Stan/Norm/Fractal/NH/NE)

[Lain]

That's interesting Fippy. I do similar thing with fogbusting sometimes, but it would not work for me vs barbs. Sometimes it's hard enough with Archery o.o

Anyway, I still practice other maps and on this one, I decided to go for Aesthetics route. But only 600 AD Optics, I don't really like that. No happiness, delayed Monarchy, small cities... also what happens if you put 800 into Parthenon for failgold, but then nobody builds it -.-

Would appreciate a little analysis here if anyone got time, otherwise I just share a bit for fun

Starting Posi

Spoiler :

I decided to go on the PH here. Because who cares about 1x clam.

Tech: AG -> Mining -> BW -> Myst -> Pottery -> Masonry -> Hunting -> AH -> Writing -> Poly

1000 BC

Spoiler :

Osaka = 2nd city for copper and it was surprisingly useful, generating 150 failgold from TGW and Mids. Also provided monument for 2nd ring pigs. First GS settled.

Tech: Aesthetics -> Math -> Literature -> Monarchy -> Alphabet

1 AD

Spoiler :

Got TGL and tons of failgold for Parthenon, but nobody built it so I had to finish it in my 3 pop city... unless I want to delay Optics even more...

City development really crippled due to Monarchy delay. Health situation also rather poor.

Tech: MC -> Sailing -> Machinery -> IW -> Compass ... bulb Optics.

640 AD

Spoiler :

Upgraded two Triremes, chopped a fresh caravel. Saw borders in the north, immediate contact allowed a trade for Calendar trade and Astro bulb.

Also, how the hell do I get a border pop in Nara now with obsolete monuments? GG



Game probably winnable from here, but I don't like this late Optics stuff. Also, TGL and NE is all well and nice, but what if I pop a Great Artist and kill my Astro date even more because of GPP pollution?

So is Aesthetics a good idea generally? Was it the right choice here?

 

[Fippy]

It's about trying with warriors first on that Mao map, imo
I would rather settle horsies in first ring than teching Archery, and warriors buy enuf time until a chariot or 2 could help.

With marble i think more about ToA than Oracle here (should have made that clearer, Oracle can so easily be lost).
Building wealth x2 is so good early, and i would strife getting that option fast.
Marble is also good for some commerce on really poor maps like this one, imo while Archery is never bad it's very expensive beyond it's and huntings cost..other options are delayed or even lost.

 

[Pedro78]

I've tried to play your practice game but didn't have the motivation to continue so I'll just drop a few thoughts -

Spoiler :

• Here I would SIP. Clams are good and so are the 2F1H1C forest spices in the very early turns.
• I've never tried the Aesth+Failgold path. It does look nice with all these forests. However I think maths+alpha are not worth it - it doesen't give you earlier Optics and the difference in failgold is not that big. I'd rather save that Optics GS for Chemistry/Gunpowder bulb or a GA.
• Your city placement looks weird but I don't think it dragged you down much here
• I think Monarchy before Aesth is best. Especially as you can still get a decent GLib date in this case. Delaying Mona for so long really hampers city development. And even if you miss out on GLib and Parthenon you still have NE failgold
• It takes a lot of planning to get the most out of the marble, but I think using it is a good choice in most cases, really have to try it out myself (need to stop being lazy, that's horrible )
• GLH looks like a strong move on this map aswell. With this many forests you can get it very early (got it on T58 iirc which is pretty safe, but my play was sloppy and you can do better than that). Every city but one can be placed on the coast, and the GLH allows you to get to Steel very quickly. I would almost advocate to build the GLH in every single isolated coastal start, but I have to try it out myself first, because it looks too good to be true

Oh and you have very little chance to pop a GArt as you build the GLib before the NE, and ideally you have another scientist from another city first. Takes some planning though.

Really have to motivate myself and play some iso games. Maybe I'll experiment a little with this one, I like it because it's easy to deal with the early barbs (Agg and lots of forests)

 

[Fippy]

Bit strange what i have going in the Toku game, but not that bad i guess.

 

[Fippy]

It's so minimalistic lol, can you really stay at 4 cities like that for some time hmm..

 

[Rusten]

Sorry for late reply -- been a little busy.

To answer I would not recommend Aesthetics line in isolation unless you have a very clear reason for it. For instance, in your Toku game I would probably not settle Osaka at all but rather get the riverside furs sooner. Basically going for the raw commerce over hammers->gold conversion. Those are extremely strong tiles in isolation as you don't really need hammers. IMO you aquired them way too late. At 1000 BC I'd rather have Kyoto, pig+marble and the two cities with riverside furs.

I would probably want to settle pigs+furs first. Immediate boost to commerce as it has everything in first ring. Easy to improve and grow.

 

[Pedro78]

@Rusten could you detail why you recommend against the Aesthetics line (with marble)? As it gives you failgold it theoretically doesen't delay Optics, and GLib+NE is very nice, especially when later going for Steel. And what do you think of the GLH on this map?

 

[Rusten]

The failgold doesn't come for free. Forests can be used for production (war) later and mines worked are cottages/furs not worked. It might not delay Optics in theory, but does it help it? I'd argue that you don't bring in much more than you've spent. If there are other means for commerce (rivers, furs, etc) then I prefer straight up rushing Optics.

Generally speaking, if you have average or better lushness, then you won't stagnate with an Optics beeline. Even without wonders.

 

[Fippy]

Not going for Aest means the safe way i would say, cos sometimes there can be really fast AIs on deity that steal your wonders (or gold).
But it's also less fun, well at least for me..after all those years, Glib still brings a bit of excitement into Iso ~~

I would say if it works, it's well worth those forests cos Glib + NE obviously helps a lot later with other bulbs.

I dislike GLH on this map, it's an even higher chance being too late and as usual you have to invest lots of early resources.

 

[Pedro78]

It might not delay Optics in theory, but does it help it?

Doesen't help Optics by itself, but the extra GPP allow you to launch a golden age, get more GS/GM to bulb Chemistry and upgrade trebs, wouldn't it make up for a slightly lower raw commerce output?

@Fippy I like your analysis about the Aest path. About the GLH, aren't you overstating the early resource investment a little? Here you have a lot of forests, an island to settle and marble so neither Sailing nor Masonry are useless early on (although not ideal ofc), and the build itself is pretty easy. The biggest reason why I might skip GLH here is the risk of missing it. (oh and I also like to argue as you might have noticed )

 

[Fippy]

Just from Lain's 100% win perspective, with GLH
I use whatever i feel like doing, sometimes that might be GLH here yup those islands are ofc not bad.
But i am long past the stage of finishing many normal Civ4 games, especially while playing stuff like Divinity (where i have much more urgency in seeing everything still).

 

[Rusten]

@Pedro78 If you complete the GL, then where is the gold coming from? It's nice to have, but getting the required GS is rarely the bottleneck for Astronomy. I think the GL is stronger for games where you have other useful things to produce (read: army/conquest). For an isolated start you are not hurt as much by running scientists.

Things against GLH:
Sailing+masonry delays writing/monarchy.
You can never guarantee building it, and if you prioritize it to maximize your chances then you have to make the decision before you know that you are isolated. That's not a problem for these games as you already know the map type, but playing with such pre-knowledge is like having a maphack.
A no-expansion GLH opener would look really silly if you find that you're not isolated but the AI simply scouted in the wrong direction or lost units to barbarians.

 

[Pedro78]

If you complete the GL, then where is the gold coming from?

Failgold from the NE. I'm not talking about the Astro GS but about the extra GS that can be used to bulb Chemistry and even Gunpowder. Or simply launch a golden age to reach rifling real quick. Oh and I don't mean to stop running scientists because I built the GLib, the idea is to get more GS overall. Now I'm not sure about the opportunity cost of all that, needs some testing.

What you said about the GLH makes sense, I'm used to games where I know from T0 that I'm isolated so I hadn't really thought about that.

 

[Pedro78]

Trying to get back into actually playing Civ4. Rolled this map.

Spoiler :

Nothing spectacular, but still a decent start

Checked it was isolated, removed a marble tile with WB and started playing. Played the first 60 turns and now I have a question.

Spoiler turn 60 :

(The dotmap is likely to change)

Went Ag-Mining-BW-Pottery-AH. Barbs weren't a problem (had a bit of luck as only one Archer spawned, the rest were barb warriors "fogbusting" for me).

Okay now here's the actual question --

Spoiler :

With this much food it's pretty obvious to get CoL before Optics. This way it's possible to get an Academy (Capital is good enough) + 2*bulb Astro + get one GP for a bulb or GAge later on.

Now there are two basic things to do until Optics:

• Produce my GPs
• Settle the rich jungle land

The biggest bottleneck here is happy cap: no happy res and no CHA leader.
There is at least 2 great city spots to the south, but they are not viable at all without IW. My big question is: when to get IW?

1. Monarchy - IW - CoL
Allows to get HR quickly and no more happy cap problem. But I can't really grow if I have to whip settlers/workers to settle the jungle after IW. And it leads to 2 turns of anarchy (HR + CS).

2. CoL-Monarchy-IW
Only one turn of anarchy (switch when reaching Monarchy) but we face the same problem. Plus the jungle cities will be up really late and probably not pay off before Optics.

3. IW - CoL - Monarchy
The whole setup will be quicker, but HR and CS will come really late.

Right now I'm thinking IW first, then get an early academy while banking gold and then tech CoL and Monarchy. An academy at size 5 doesn't sound all that awesome, though...

T60 save attached (playing with Buffy 004b). If anyone is interested in playing this I can make a "standard" starting save.

Any ideas?




Oh and this thread is great

 

[Fippy]

Would probably disagree with CoL, only one city with double food (Tokyo).
Okay you have those jungle spots, but you would have to hurry much if you want to make them useful for CoL before Astro.

 

[Pedro78]

@Fippy

Spoiler :

Satsuma also has double food once you borrow the Rice from Kyoto (which has plenty of grassland tiles to work, you don't want to grow it too much anyway as health cap is fairly low (11). It does also have plenty of time to get that last GP (can stay in CS for a little while after Astro if needed).
I'd say that CoL is worth it in Iso if you can get 2 more GS than without it, which is pretty much the case here.

I don't intend to make use of CS on these jungle spots (except maybe run a couple of merchants to adjust with worker turns).

But even if you don't go for CoL, would you go for Monarchy before IW?

 

[Fippy]

Spoiler :

hmm i have my doubts with 2 scientists more, 400 points for the 4th without any bonuses like Paci. It's very likely that i would skip both Mona & CoL, the reli pre-techs are totally useless and combined it's as expensive as MC. And get Calendar instead for only 1 happy, but no extra costs or Anarchy.
Splitting sugar for 3 cities (some river for cottages anyways), there should be some use for extra pop for settlers maybe.

But i usually play those different than you guys, often skipping Mona where you are not

 

[Pedro78]

Fippy

Spoiler :

If you skip Monarchy there's no point in going for CoL, of course.

But how could you even consider skipping Mona on this map? Maths and Calendar are both useless in iso (can always trade for them after Optics). This map has a lot of food and a decent health cap, there's so much space for cottages!

In a "normal" game I understand the "keep things small" strategy, but here skipping Mona will only lead you to 200 bpt @500AD, and then there's no way to reach a good military tech in a reasonable timeframe.

I've seen you skip Mona on the deserted Mehmed island a while ago, but it was a completely different situation.

Maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Fippy]

Spoiler :

I use horizontal growth rather than HR
But yup, i would already have settled a bit differently for that (city 3N of Cap, and another on the coastal PH for sheep).
One sugar city some way under the cap that grabs a cottage, and so on.
Good point on calendar, for some reason i thought it requires IW lol..okay, skip that too!

 

[Pedro78]

Spoiler :

I like horizontal growth when I have access to AIs/Currency/Failgold/whatever, but how do you plan on dealing with maintenance here? And how many cities would you settle? I could hardly justify settling 2 sheep cities as these bring no commerce. Horizontal growth is great to increase production (whip), but you don't need hammers here, only commerce..