Deity Walkthrough - Native America

[Rusten]

Great read so far!

Does the AI always pick worst enemy over weakest civ as a war target, assuming worst enemy is an eligible candidate, and not too strong? Or is it just more probable that the worst enemy will be the chosen target?

Thanks.

I'm no AI code reader, so I can't say for sure if there is any extra bonus for being a worst enemy. Still, Washington is currently annoyed towards Willem and Willem makes very few units usually so once Washington starts getting frisky it's very likely that he'll attack Willem over me. I would have to scout his SoD to be certain though. The fact that my dog soldiers count as 4000 soldiers compared to the usual 3000 of axemen/swordsmen helps as well.

If I understand WFYABTA correctly, selling counts towards the AIs WFYABTA, meaning, Darius can now trade 2 less techs from Willem and Washington (unless friendly), so in addition to getting gold, you will somewhat slow him down 2000 years from now.

That would be my understanding as well seeing as he is receiving a tech from me in the deal.

Hmm i didn't know that... interesting. At any rate rusten needs to get someone to friendly to be able to trade enough... Although both darius and willem have rather high caps i belive. Seriously though with darius + willem + washington as neighbours this screams cultural to me... None of these are going to attack you unless you do something very strange... The red spot should then obviously be settled 1E to get 2 bannans + rice and be a GP farm... Although i don't see why it wouldn't be settled there in the first place... You are philo so it shouldn't be too hard to get rather fast victory..

Getting someone to friendly will be very difficult here. Darius and Willem rates religion low and all 3 AIs have their favourite civic at liberalism meaning no early bonus there either. Willem and Darius are going to switch into FR as well which means that any religion boost would be lost once the civic one starts running.

Seeing as their WFYABTA caps are pretty high I'll just stay neutral this game. The fact that the map is continents helps as well. Once I reach their WFYABTA limits I'll still be able to trade techs with the other continent later on.

Red spot 1E would get off to a much slower start though (no banana in its first ring) and the other banana is already in Poverty Points BFC. Poverty Point doesn't have another food resource either so I'm not that excited about giving away the banana.

This is a good setting for cultural, but I find the victory type a little uninspiring personally, it's not something I want to do in a thread like this. The quality of my posts would drop a lot if I don't enjoy writing them and playing the game. If I played this game on my own without posting it here I might have gone for cultural soon. If it was clearly the better choice I would probably pursue it here as well as I want this thread as competitive/optimal as possible, but I feel there are still other paths to take that are just as good.

 

[Rusten]

Regarding getting a fast victory--that's not something I aim for here either. This is not the GOTM or SGOTM but Strategy & Tips. When it comes to optimal play in this setting it would be minimizing risk of defeat and maximizing odds of winning--not getting the fastest victory possible. If I was playing the GOTM here my game plan would probably differ.

 

[Rusten]

I ended the last round with the knowledge of IW. It was pretty unlucky not to have it within my borders already (or in a spot where I’d get it in my first ring). As things stand now I probably won’t be able to capture many barbarian cities—I desperately need swordsmen for that as dog soldiers and chariots just don’t cut it vs. fortified archers. The gem city was still up for grabs but I didn’t have much hope now. At any rate I successfully settle both of my marked city spots ~700-650 BC so at least I have 6 cities.

My first GP pops 575 BC and as expected it turned out to be a prophet. I promptly settled him.

By 550 BC my technology doubts gets dealt with. All 3 civs know CoL so I get to trade metal casting to Washington for it. I research currency myself (Darius is the only one knowing it still). Darius completed the Pyramids ~400 BC.

I finish currency 400 BC, trade it to Washington for mathematics and 70 gold and start on CS. I adopt HR and Caste System. I didn’t adopt HR rule earlier as I wanted to save the anarchy for later—I didn’t need the happiness yet. Here’s a look at the technology screen as of 300 BC. These AIs sure are teching fast—2 of them have CS already and Darius has philosophy/machinery to compensate.



I finally pop my first GS 250 BC and put up an academy to boost my research further.



Here’s a look at Mound City doing its thing. As you can see it is a great asset to my empire despite the fact that it looked a bit marginal earlier--overlap is a good thing.



I trade currency to Willem for the remaining beakers of CS 225 BC. Willem has also made the AP at this point. I immediately give CS to Darius the next turn for calendar and 20 gold. This is a very good deal for him, but getting calendar some turns earlier is very important for me (so many banana tiles) and it also bumps our relations up to pleased due to “fair and forthright” trade. After voting for Willem for the AP and making the mentioned trade with Darius I have both of them at pleased and feel pretty safe diplomatically.

Willem got to the Barbarian gem city before me but at least I managed to claim this great city.



It’s also coastal (something I lacked so far) meaning that I can now seek contact with the other continent once optics is in.

I finish education 250 AD aided by 1 lightbulb. A couple of random trade proposals show that none of my rivals are close to finishing it so liberalism is safe. It’s not something I usually worry about, but these AIs are prone to research it much earlier than others.

A funny note about the game is that every religion has been founded on my continent—most of them by Willem and Darius. I saw Darius with 5 religions in some of his cities, he’s definitely going to be a cultural threat--a war vs. him is inevitable if the game lasts a long time.

As to my own plans:

I’m going to pop a GS in this city and lightbulb liberalism to speed up things. I will use my next GP (after the one in Chaco Canyon) for a golden age to change civics and save some turns for the war preparations.



I was talking about taking steel from liberalism but that’s way too risky here. Besides I am lacking some older techs so I actually want to trade around education soon. What are my plans, well it’s all in these screens really. What do these cities/civs have in common (it might be hard to spot from this distance)?







Almost no cities are on hills! This means that a cuirassier/cavalry approach is very strong—I won’t need siege to capture cities. I think I’m going to start with Willem, he has made a lot of wonders, got some matured towns, a shrine and his power graph is really low. Willem also lacks horses.





But before all that I’m going to make 6 universities and get my Oxford U. up in Cahokia.

 

[schwartz]

interesting game so far.
Willem's land looks great, especially Utrecht as a double holy city with all those floodplains.
Are you planning to continue warring after Willem?
It seems that a swap to Hinduism to leverage UoS (and + diplo with Darius, provided he doesn't go FR first..) then warring with Washington would make the most sense.

 

[Rusten]

It's been raining here so I decided to play an extra round. I won't have much time the coming week so I'm getting some more turns played. Decided to spoiler this set as it's quite heavy on images unlike the previous ones.

Spoiler :

I successfully get to liberalism first 475 AD and take nationalism. Willem had the tech already but I couldn’t postpone it any further for something better. Willem adds some more useful wonders to his collection—this time it’s the Angkor Wat and the SM. I definitely want to go for a state religion after grabbing his cities as he also has the UoS.

After some careful trading I end up doing well research-wise at ~540 AD. I’m currently researching MT here.



Next up I trade liberalism to Washington for banking and 30 gold, gunpowder to Washington for engineering and gunpowder to Willem for optics and 370 gold—I really want to meet the other continent now.

I spawn another GS in Mound City 700 AD and trigger a GA to speed things up.



I decide to trade MT to Willem for printing press despite planning to attack him as he’s lacking horses. This trade will speed up rifling for me and as I’m not going to be using spies cavalry should be more effective than cuirassiers.

I spawn another GS 840 AD. I decided to settle this one in Cahokia as there is nothing important to lightbulb in a while. Cahokia has a lot of amplifiers now so he adds a lot of beakers.



I whipped a caravel earlier and finally I meet someone—Mehmed 960 AD. He’s fairly backwards; I guess not having a religion is hurting the other continent. I meet Tokugawa 1000 AD and he isn’t doing badly research-wise--I think he has astronomy on everyone but he is lacking a lot of earlier techs. I also meet Hannibal—the last AI on the same turn.

I trade printing press, drama and 15 gold to Hannibal for economics leaving me with this:



I’ve hit WFYABTA with Darius now unfortunately. Shortly after this (1 or 2 turns I believe) Willem finishes chemistry while Hannibal finishes constitution making both techs available for trade.

- MT+economics to Washington for chemistry and 110 gold.
- MT+liberalism to Hannibal for constitution.

I’ve just finished rifling and a bank in Cahokia and now put my research at 0% to accumulate gold and upgrade some of my cuirassiers to cavalry. I’m not going to be able to upgrade them all right away, but cuirassiers should beat most of what Willem’s got anyway—I just need a few cavalry to beat down the best defenders first.

I noticed that Willem’s northern land wasn’t very well defended so I’m going to be using 2 stacks for this assault. The marked group is on its way north while the one to the left in the screenshot will head straight for Utrecht. I’m going to be able to attack Utrecht only 1 turn after declaring war—Willem won’t have much time to reinforce his city. I also scouted his “SoD” (not that impressive, but he has some units in his capital too) bordering Washington and it won’t be able to make it to Utrecht in time. Furthermore it doesn’t have any CR promotions so I don’t have to worry about keeping my units in the city.





I declare war 1040 AD and move the selected stack onto the wine tile.



Meanwhile my other (smaller) stack captures Scythian on the first turn of the war.



I end my turn and Willem brings Mehmed into the war against me. That's of no use though—he doesn’t have astronomy yet. I capture Utrecht easily on the 2nd turn of the war.



My northern stack captures another city on the next turn—this time it’s Rotterdam.



1100 AD: I attempt to revolt to mercantilism and representation as I still get just 1 turn of anarchy for 2 changes, but unfortunately I mis-click and suddenly find myself in FM instead—nice! No, I do not have astronomy yet and yes, both Darius and Washington are in mercantilism. That’s a minor annoyance and completely unnecessary but I’m doing fine this game anyway. I’ll just have to research Astronomy next and get trade routes with Hannibal.

Most of Willem’s stack had moved into Amsterdam 1090 AD and I attacked it then but I didn’t manage to take the city in one turn. However, this turn (1100 AD) I manage to capture the infamous city of Amsterdam.



Willem is now ready to capitulate—I’d say that’s a job well done, the war only lasted 6 turns, riflemen and drafting isn't the only way to win renaissance wars. He was 2nd in score and the tech leader, but the bigger they are the harder they fall I guess. He’s going to be a very useful vassal as I didn’t reach WFYABTA yet—I can get some tech trading done and direct his research. Nobody’s got replaceable parts yet so I’m good to go for another kill—I can’t help but feel that Boston is next, that’s another great city.

 

[CLST]

Very nice war. Very nice indeed. Quite an entertaining read.

 

[Quotey]

Why didn't you capture the Hague? That's going to be hell, Utrecht and Amsterdam will constantly be revolting now....

 

[Dirk1302]

Interesting question, a possible reason could be Rusten's intention to capture Boston, it's easy to reach through Dutch lands, not so easy if the Hague is captured. OTH if Boston is captured it'll also have the Hague to cope wiith.

Another reason could be that there wasn't enough firepower left to capture the Hague and maybe there was danger that Willem'd vassalize to someone else. With enough units later the revolts'll be stopped in these cities.

This is another very good writeup , did you get your army by whipping extensively? In most games i play i find it particularly hard to get an army together so early,probably because i tend to rely on workshops that require guilds and chemistry to really shine. Whipping is very powerful but i'd need to farm more than i do which makes getting the techs in time more difficult, it strikes me that you balance these things quite nicely in a lot of your games.

 

[budweiser]

Sitting Bull seems like a very brave choice for a deity game.

How? (10 char)

 

[Rusten]

Why didn't you capture the Hague? That's going to be hell, Utrecht and Amsterdam will constantly be revolting now....

I haven't accepted the capitulation yet, just left things there for now but I'm not that worried about revolts. I am going to be changing into a state religion soon for the SM/UoS and that adds a multiplier for my garrison (can't remember the exact mechanics right now). Furthermore cavalry has a very high unit value for stopping revolts so combined with a state religion I shouldn't have to worry. I doubt I can take out all 3 civs with cavalry, I'll probably have to stop after Washington so I can use them to stop revolts at that point. Most of The Hague's good tiles are already covered by either Utrecht or Boston so the city is not that important (although it has a shrine).

Either way, I notice that I have a peace treaty running with Washington so I'm not going to be able to attack yet anyway--taking The Hague won't cost me much time so I might go for it after all.

Interesting question, a possible reason could be Rusten's intention to capture Boston, it's easy to reach through Dutch lands, not so easy if the Hague is captured. OTH if Boston is captured it'll also have the Hague to cope wiith.

Another reason could be that there wasn't enough firepower left to capture the Hague and maybe there was danger that Willem'd vassalize to someone else. With enough units later the revolts'll be stopped in these cities.

This is another very good writeup , did you get your army by whipping extensively? In most games i play i find it particularly hard to get an army together so early,probably because i tend to rely on workshops that require guilds and chemistry to really shine. Whipping is very powerful but i'd need to farm more than i do which makes getting the techs in time more difficult, it strikes me that you balance these things quite nicely in a lot of your games.

Mix. During the GA I triggered I was getting them using tiles as I was still in CS, but after the GA I indeed whipped and chopped all of them.

Having a balanced set of tiles is very important, I'm no purist one way or the other--I use all improvement types for flexibility. If you cottage everything then you pretty much force yourself into a path of drafting due to lacking production (at least if you attack during the renaissance). If you get unlucky you'll end up having the wrong units for the situation and wind up in big trouble--flexibility is the thing to aim for in most games, that's why I love the spiritual trait more than anything.

As a minor correction--the war lasted 7 turns not 6 as I needed 2 turns for Amsterdam. That's still great although that switch to FM is really bothering me.

 

[shyuhe]

I think Utrecht is outside of Hague's cultural radius so it shouldn't be affected by revolts until Hague hits 80% culture. Unfortunately the same will not hold for Amsterdam but you can always just garrison troops in that city.

 

[sylvanllewelyn]

I see good play and good luck together. Rusten's style is awesome, but two things:

- good play: getting such a high GNP at such an early stage, and getting GS's quickly without pacifism
- good luck: a very food-rich capital (2 pigs?!) and good land

As for religious conflict, I don't think the Hinduism and Buddhism founders are very religious, so not much diplomatic penalties there.

 

[obsolete]

Selling does not count towards WFYABTA (only received techs) so these are great deals (although the last 2 were very cheap for him).

In theory shouldn't selling actually decrease your WFY... because you are letting the other's catch up.

 

[Quotey]

Ah, but then tech for a tech would give no WFYABTA, and 2 techs for a tech would decrease it... defeatingt he point don't you think?

 

[obsolete]

No, we are talking about selling techs, not trading them.

 

[Lord Chambers]

I'm amazed you got as many cities as the AI on Diety. In your next write up be sure to detail that process because I can't manage it on the average map.

 

[Rusten]

I'm amazed you got as many cities as the AI on Diety. In your next write up be sure to detail that process because I can't manage it on the average map.

Sure thing, but it happens quite often on 'Continents'. I'd say it's one of the easiest map types given the amount of land available (most of the time) and the shape of the continents (easy to block). Some people say it's one of the hardest maps but I truly disagree. More importantly it's really predictable--the human player knows exactly what's coming once the game starts. It's probably my last time playing this map type, I don't like it all. I picked it as it seems pretty popular amongst the forum members but maybe that's no longer true. Fractal/B&S/etc usually results in more exciting land and gameplay.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

it's hard only trading wise; if you're on the 3 guys continent, and one is a f up.

 

[Grey Fox]

@SnowlyWhite; Thats why you play custom and select an even number of civs (I do 6 for small and 8 for standard)

I prefer Hemispheres with 2 continents over the continents script.

 

[Rusten]

Spoiler :

I decided to accept Willem’s capitulation after all (and trade for his whale). My stacks are in need of some healing right now but the main reason is that he’s got his hands on military science and started putting some grenadiers in The Hague. While pinch-promoted cavalry do well vs. them even when fortified in cities it’s not worth it as he has caved in already—I’ll save my cavalry for Washington.

Given the current technology around the globe my cavalry still has a decent life span. I also revolt to free speech (captured a lot of towns and there’s more to come) and theocracy (UoS/SM).



By 1160 AD my stack is fully healed and ready to strike into Boston (which holds most of Washington's army):



I capture Atlanta 2 turns later (1180 AD), Washington 2 turns later (1200 AD) and Philadelphia (SE of Washington) + New York the turn after 1210 AD. Washington is now ready to capitulate having lost all of his major cities.



This as well was a very short war (6 turns - 176 -> 181)—got to love mounted warfare. If I had used riflemen and/or cannons it would take much more time due to slower movement and lost turns bombarding cultural defense. This way I can get my economy back on track much sooner for another advantage in the future. I will have to keep my tech going to stop Darius from winning by culture.

I have also made peace with Mehmed, gifted him some techs bringing relations to pleased and then signed open borders for more trade routes.

After finishing astronomy at the start of the set I had started on steel for trade bait. 1240 AD I trade it to Hannibal for scientific method. This obsoletes my monasteries but the tech is too important to postpone any longer, I really want to get my hands on Communism. Shortly after capitulating Willem I directed his research to Communism and in 1270 AD it pays off—I trade him steel for it. I usually go for biology at this stage of the game, but I am mostly running hammer-based improvements here (watermills and workshops) and the lands I captured are filled with cottages so it’s less of a priority. I want to get to assembly line ASAP and take out Darius to seal the game.

The great city of Boston actually had an academy in it too. It’s producing a lot of science even before the usual infrastructure. It’s in no danger of revolting due to my state religion and some cavalry being present.



I Spawn another GS in Cahokia 1320 AD. I tried to get a prophet as I had one idling already, but no such luck. Fortunately the captured Amsterdam is a great supplementary GPP city at this point. With all the wonders and food I can quickly hurry out a GP that’s not a GS.



I win the AP seat in 1370 AD. After directing Willem’s research again I’m able to trade for physics (steam power+rifling). I love having vassals—it’s not always the best idea to wipe out the civilizations. By 1410 AD enough civilizations have biology for me to be able to trade for it.



I’ve popped my GP from Amsterdam by now (prophet) and start a GA 1410 AD with 1 turn left on assembly line. I revolt to nationhood to be able to draft some infantry and caste system for better workshops during the GA. Losing free speech sets my research back a little but it’s all about taking out Darius at this point—he has 6 religions in at least 1 of his 3 selected cities.

By 1460 AD the AP presents itself. Lacking other options I went for the religious victory but with no intentions or faith in winning (which I didn’t as Darius abstained).



I attack Darius 1470 AD and change my civics again at the end of the GA (caste -> emancipation and nationhood -> free speech). I send my first (of two) stacks onto Gordium.



The second one heads towards Sardis and Pasargadae.



I easily capture Gordium with no casualties (IIRC) 1480 AD and the turn after Darius is already willing to negotiate peace. I take Sardis 1505 AD.

1520 AD is the turn where Persian victory is not up for discussion any more. I capture 2 of his 3 selected cities putting an end to the cultural threat. I put research towards combustion to prepare for an invasion onto the other continent after Darius—the game is definitely decided.





As you can see below the BTS AI is very good at focusing culture in 3 selected cities. After taking 2 of the major ones the next cities have quite a way to go.



Shortly after the AP pops up again with the same query as last time (religious victory or nothing). I quickly click on the resolution without giving it much thought and surprisingly I ended up winning. I was focused on domination at this point but very happy about this as it saves me the annoyance of wrapping up the game by force.